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  1. #4396
    BAMF!!!!! KurtW95's Avatar
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    Good develeopment if it lasts and it is what it appears to be. Now, if only the original Loki could return as well. Would love to have both Kid Loki and the classic villainous Loki back at the same time.
    Good Marvel characters- Bring Them Back!!!

  2. #4397
    Astonishing Member Gambit, King of Thieves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    So looks like i was correct about who was piloting the Destroyer... just not in quite the way I expected....

    Just a note, the above (and below) is a spoiler for Asgardians of the Galaxy, and it is a DOOZY. If you don't want to be spoiled do not read the hidden text or click the link. Seriously, it is a MASSIVE spoiler of a twist ending, which I kinda regret having read, (not Silver's fault, I read it before i saw it posted here) I think i would have preferred to have been surprised.

    spoilers:
    So yeah, though Kid Loki was awesome, this does worry me. For one, as you mentioned, Kieron Gillen specifically wanted him to stay dead, and after he explained his reasoning, I agree with him. I think it's best he went out as a fully heroic character, even if it was terribly tragic. I really worry the temptation to turn one or the other of them evil again at some point is going to be huge, which will kinda destroy the message of JIM.

    But my biggest fear is for the Loki we have running around right now. With them bringing Kid Loki back, it may mean that they feel like they have a free pass to make the current Loki your standard issue villain again, because they figure Kid Loki will be the in-universe 'good' Loki, and we'll like him because of that. But that's not how it works for me. I've said it before, but I don't like Loki right now just because he's good(ish), it's because I have enjoyed following his journey to get where he is. I like him right now because it is hard for him because he is fighting against all his history and instincts, and sometimes falling short. You can't just swap in Kid Loki, he's not the same thing, because though he's cute and all, he is lacking that journey and that internal conflict, even if their methods and general morals are kinda more similar these days. And basically, just I don't want everything Loki has been through to end in failure, to paint him as just bad by default, to give the message that people can't change their ways after having screwed up in the past.

    I suspect it is Loki himself who is responsible for bringing him back, though. Possibly something in Infinity Wars using either the Reality Gem to pull him in from another dimension, or maybe Soul Gem shenanigans. If that is the case, it could end up being a good thing for original Loki, because it could be him undoing one of his big mistakes in the recent past. I guess that's the best case scenario.
    end of spoilers

    so yeah. I will definitely check out Asgardians of the Galaxy and it could be cool. I just have.... worries...


    Also, I was thinking some more about Avengers. And kinda thinking about the 'why' question, which is something that really needs to be addressed. I said before that I don't think the Celestials themselves were the reason, not 100% anyway. And I got to thinking, what if this is more War of the Realms stuff? Like, at some point Malekith has to invade Midgard, right? and Loki has to know the timeline of his invasion plans, we already saw that, with the Hel story. We saw Loki tagging along to meet Sindr, then the next thing you know (ok, there was a fairly sizable delay, but still) we see him sending Thor to Hel to stop her. Except Loki got pulled along as well. So what if the whole Celestial thing is more of the same? He knows Malekith is going to attack Midgard, and when, so just like with sending Thor to Hel so there was a defense to stop Sindr, he is arranging for the Avengers to form so there is a defense to stop Malekith's invasion of Midgard. When Malekith does invade Midgard, it won't make sense for JUST Thor to stop him, after all, it makes sense for all the Earth's heroes to pitch in. And the way Loki arranged for the team to re-form it could have been him going to Malekith 'i'll get the invasion of Midgard started with the Celestials' intending to lose the entire time, but to Malekith, it looks like he just screwed up. Of course, in that scenario we still have the problem that Sindr had to have seen Loki fighting against her in Hel, and she presumably told Melekith, so I dunno there.
    I fell about Ikol the same way I feel about Doom. Lots of character development, path of redemption, then Marvel goes "oh hey let's make them evil again" and I'm PISSED.
    I even got a Latverian flag for my birthday, and then they went and got rid of Infamous Iron Man.
    Cyclops was SO DAMN RIGHT, BABY
    Pull list: X-23, Mr. & Mrs. X, Extermination, Spider-Gwen: Ghost Spider, Uncanny X-Men
    Have been informed that the Black Swans are "only seeking female members, but thank you very much for your time"

  3. #4398
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Yeah, I was super disappointed in the regression of Doom as well, it felt like they had barely gotten started on a new status quo with him, and then FF #1 and it's just like, a hard reset. Boring. Been there, done that, and while there was nothing wrong with those stories in the first place, I am not really interested in seeing it repeated for the sake of nostalgia. I was much more interested in seeing how the new Doom and Reed reacted to one another, not just the same old thing all over again,. I am just so much more interested in seeing things move forward rather than backwards. That goes for both Doom and Loki.

    But I read Asgardians of the Galaxy, and I dunno, something feels off about Kid Loki, he feels a lot more manipulative and deceptive than he was in JIM. It just... kinda feels like he's got bad intentions rather than good ones... does anyone else get that vibe? Which, as I outlined above, I would have problems with, but.... I had some thoughts. So, here's my bit of wild speculation.... That isn't Kid Loki, it just looks like him.

    Okay, I hope this makes sense. It said in the issue that the bodies of gods who died went to the Naglfar Armada, while their spirits presumably went to one of the assorted afterlives until such time that the cycle began anew and they could be reborn into a new body, right? But Loki mucked that all up by having himself written out of the book of the dead, skipping the afterlife portion of things, and jumping straight to the rebirth part. And then mucked it up further when he pulled that stunt at the end of JIM, where he overwrote Kid Loki's mind. What if it wasn't a complete obliteration of Kid Loki, more squeezing his soul out of his body? What is in Loki's body right now is Ikol, which is more like a copy of his spirit, and personally i am fine with that and i still consider him to be Loki. Moreso than a new version would be, imo, because those experiences and memories are, I think, hugely important to who he is. But that little spark, his soul, the thing that is constantly dying and being reborn, could still be out there, and that might be what we are seeing in Asgardians of the Galaxy. And while it may look like Kid Loki, presumably because that was the form it was in when it last 'died' it may not be him in terms of personality. Loki said himself in Young Avengers that when he was reborn it was a roll of the dice, it could be good, it could be bad, but whatever happened, it wouldn't be the same as what came before, that's the whole reason he made the Ikol backup. So what might have happened is Ikol squeezed his spirit out of his body, 'killing' him, but not quite. It might even be that Kid Loki's not physically there in Asgardians of the Galaxy at all, it could be more like a ghost? Which could explain how he's piloting the Destroyer, which isn't normally something you pilot in a physical sense, it is piloted by a person's spirit. And it may be that this spirit is looking to be reborn, but with Ikol squatting in his old body, he can't. Maybe he can't be properly reborn until his old body is killed and goes to the Naglfar Armada. This could also explain the whole 'someone is tricking me' thing in Infinity Wars. (though it would not explain how he leapt to that conclusion)

    It could be a way to spin this story so it's not going against Gillen's wishes regarding Kid Loki staying dead, and is still moving things forward, as long as "Kid Loki" is the bad guy. Now, personally, assuming my speculation (which is admittedly not based on a lot, so i could be way off the mark) is correct, I want Ikol to win out such a scenario. I like him. I don't want everything he has been through to be for nothing. Though I guess i would have said more or less the same about Kid Loki during JIM....

    but I did make the Asgardians of the Galaxy in Sims, minus Throg, though turns out I can not add them to the household until I add a mod so i can take the household above 8. But here they are until I add the mod later tonight:
    https://steamcommunity.com/id/RayeGu...93318906052593 (once added to the game, i plan on making an Anabelle variant for each outfit)
    https://steamcommunity.com/id/RayeGu...93318906053065
    https://steamcommunity.com/id/RayeGu...93318906053919
    https://steamcommunity.com/id/RayeGu...93318906053488
    https://steamcommunity.com/id/RayeGu...93318906054302

  4. #4399
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    I thought I was the only one who felt something was "off" with this Kid Loki. He felt more like Loki-Loki, the not to be trusted manipulative, mischievous to selfish ends, nothing like how he was before. I could be wrong but even the look on his face, something seems rather devious about him for some reason.
    Last edited by rpmaluki; 09-06-2018 at 04:23 AM.

  5. #4400
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Aha! so I wasn't alone thinking he felt just a bit off. And after the work Bunn did with Magneto, I have a hard time believing he'd be misunderstanding Kid Loki's character, so I dunno, I'm thinking it was intentional. It's subtle, what little we had to judge by, and will probably not register with a lot of people, but for those of us who have followed like every appearance of Loki from at the very least JIM, I think it's just off enough that it sets off some warning bells.

    Also weird, if it was Kid Loki all the way through... every single member of the team is a character Kid Loki has never met. EVERY ONE. Though Annabelle talked like it was only characters that were less than trustworthy, she neglected to mention Valkyrie and/or herself in that regard, so that's not quite true, is it? But having never met Kid Loki is another thing all these characters have in common. Angela only entered the picture on the Asgard side of things during Agent of Asgard, the only valkyrie Kid Loki met was Dani Moonstar, Skurge was nowhere to be seen when he was making his little visits to Hel, and Throg and Thunderstrike were nowhere to be seen in JIM either. So if he's the one arranging the members of the team, via Angela, how would cute lil Kid Loki know to go after these people? I mean he's a clever kid, sure, but this kind of feels to me like it would require some prior knowledge of them... (still would not explain Angela, tho) I am not sure what that could mean, if anything, but it might be relevant. maybe.

    Of course, this could all amount to nothing and it's just that Bunn has a slightly different take on him. Characters that are primarily only known by the work of one writer are hard to get away from that one particular voice when they do finally pass on to another writer (and yes, I know, Fraction was the one who technically created him and did some work with him as well, but Gillen made Kid Loki his own) But still... I do wonder.
    Last edited by Raye; 09-06-2018 at 03:29 AM.

  6. #4401
    Spectacular Member Fanto.mx's Avatar
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    My thought is that maybe instead of something like overwriting but being corrupted by Kid Loki, which is what we all kind of assumed happened when Ikol took his skin, maybe the two kinda merged, but then we're split into two because a double soul-spirit-whatever is too much for one body. That would kinda squish a different Kid-Ikol hybrid out the earhole and into...somewhere.

    Maybe I as wrong in that earlier post when I assumed the rules of the Destroyer changed. Maybe "Kid" there is pure spirit -- and since we've seen that perhaps most of the good went into Loki, maybe these leftovers tend bad.

    Alternatively, since AotG is coming out of Infinities Warses, if Loki tried to make up for that one big unforgivable thing by bringing kid "back" (again, I think our original Kid is No More, not just dead) then maybe there's some Pet Sematary stuff happening here.

  7. #4402
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    That may be! though i dunno if I'd say most of the good went into him, he's got better motivations, but is still pretty selfish and resorts to some rather questionable methods.... but yeah, i think the two most likely options are either the displaced soul, or Loki trying to undo his one big mistake, but it went wrong.

    and Infinity Wars... ok, so still annoyed by characters just knowing things when convenient with no explanation, and Loki was the prime culprit in that regard. But it was better than previous issues overall. but yeah, basically Loki ended up in the Soul Gem/Warped universe. I got the impression he used reverse psychology on Gamora to get what he wanted, which was more in line with his character, I thought. and I am glad he's away from Flowa. I loathe her. Though as mentioned I have no idea how he just kinda knows he needs to find Adam Warlock for some reason. Also, Doopool's dialogue to Loki translates to "You're late for brunch. We are out of bacon." which is a nice Young Avengers nod. And since Loki is in the Warped universe it means he may appear in the Warped issues, including Iron Hammer, which is written by Al Ewing.

    also, Marvel Battle Lines launched a few days ago on mobile. i played through what is available so far of the main quest and, encouragingly, Loki is not the bad guy for once. Long story short, a Cosmic Cube exploded, and this is what empowers your player character, and also sets off events as people scramble for the shards and they create some havoc. Ok, so the Avengers join your player character, fight some bad guys, including Hela, and Thor convinces the team that they need to go to Asgard next. Once in Asgard "Thor" drops his disguise, and reveals it was Loki the whole time, says he needed to get the Avengers there in order to stop Surtur, and that once they free Odin from Surtur, they can go back and whoop Hela's ass. Real Thor joins as well at this point, as well as the Warriors 3 and Sif. They fight Enchantress, Malekith, Surtur etc who seem to be banding together in a bid to conquer everything, taking a page from the War of the Realms. And that's about it, really, just the first chapter is out so far. I kept waiting for a backstab reveal, but nope, Loki's just kinda joined the team. I am not sure how to get Loki's card, though I know he has one. It may be that he's one of the rare drops that you can only get by paying for, unfortunately.


    also, this kinda happened last night as i was messing with a new pencil i got:


    http://rayegunn.tumblr.com/post/1780...-and-leads-and
    he got wedged in the corner of the page and proportions are a bit wonky but still
    Last edited by Raye; 09-12-2018 at 07:45 PM.

  8. #4403
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    OK, I'm back.

    And I just want to say that is it perhaps that our current Loki is the good one and that there might be something wrong with kidLoki? I mean, the art in that issue was pretty ominous.

    And while things are confusing, between Thor, Avengers, and Infinity War, it seems like we're finally getting some clearly idea that Loki isn't a bad guy. He's playing his game way too hard and doesn't seem to be fully right in the head, but he also appears to be trying really hard to play things and make things right.

    Also, I have a high tolerance for confusing comics, but Infinity War #3 was confusing and while I really liked Loki, it all felt so muddled and confused that I really can't defend it.

    Also, Raye, love your wonky Loki.

  9. #4404
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Right, that's what we were saying. Kid Loki doesn't feel like Kid Loki, he feels more like old-school Loki. Though admittedly it's not based on a whole lot, not like he had a lot of panel time. But there is also Angela's feelings about the situation, and the fact that he pretty clearly lied, at least by omission, about several aspects of their mission. And why would Kid Loki need to hide in that armor, anyway? Wouldn't him being back, if it is really him, be considered a good thing to those that knew him? (though, as mentioned, no one on this team did know Kid Loki, not even Angela, and I suspect that is intentional) And then you throw in the cover for issue 2 which seems to be presenting him as a bad guy. So something is up there, and I do suspect "Kid Loki" is more bad guy than not. But i don't think it's quite as simple as good or evil, it never is with Loki, at least not recently.

    And we've been getting major clues that he wasn't the real bad guy for some time now, the hints have been there all throughout Aaron's appearances with him. The Avengers arc was the one where it really kinda wavered there, but in the end it played out, more or less, even if it was till kinda weird and sort of raised more questions than it answered... I think Avengers felt weird not so much because of what happened (though, it was a bit extreme even for Loki's current methods, but maybe future revelations will make it clearer) but more the timing. It came about as it seemed like Loki's true motivations were finally coming to light in Thor, Dr Strange and even Infinity Wars, and then Avengers kind of doubled down on the 'bad things' aspect, downright monstrous even, as it seemed like Loki was trying to destroy the entire planet, and not so much on the 'for a good end purpose' part. But it was pretty apparent if you payed attention from the beginning of Aaron's writing with him, and Cates take was consistent with this as well, that he was siding with the bad guys and/or doing what on the surface looked to be bad things in order to gain advantage for the good guys and achieve a good end. It's just that some people (both characters in the story and readers) can't seem to see it or don't want to acknowledge it. But along the way there have been major hints that he wasn't exactly enjoying doing what he was doing, and times where he has covertly betrayed Malekith, (siccing Jane on the frost giants invading Midgard, siccing Thor on Sindr in Hel) and in the end things worked out for the better despite what he did being bad on the surface. And I think he is completely right in the head, he knows exactly what he's doing. He's calculating, not erratic. It's just that it's a bit difficult to fathom some of his actions without being able to see the full picture, we can only see the actions, not the whys most of the time. That's not to say all his actions are completely 'good', a lot of them are pretty damn shady, but that's just Loki being Loki.

    But I think we may be seeing some more 'is he really on the side of good?' thing coming up, since in the preview for Thor 5 it's again mentioned that Thor's brother destroyed the Earth. This was brought up as far back as God of Thunder during the God Bomb story, that Thor's brother was responsible for the end of the world, (well, King Thor just said to 'kill your bastard brother' but it was implied that was the reason) and that continued into Agent of Asgard, but it seemed like Loki had averted that fate in the end there. But I see two scenarios that are possible here. Despite agent of Asgard, in the stuff Aaron writes, he never refers to the one responsible for the end of the world by name, just 'your brother' and it's not like Thor has only one brother, Balder is back from the dead, we've got this second Loki running around again, and Tyr could still be a possibility. OR, it could be a situation where for there to be a new beginning, there needs to be an ending. That by protecting the last scraps of life in the universe, Thor is in effect preventing it's rebirth and renewal, something that needs to happen at this point in time, something which is likely overdue. Thor's desire to protect life could in effect be causing more harm than good. Good actions causing harm, to mirror Loki's bad actions causing good. I think the second scenario is the most likely. We saw Loki in the future get the necrosword, and that's when things began dying more quickly, and then Wolverine shows up possessed of the Phoenix Force, itself a symbol of renewal and rebirth, which Wolverine helpfully spells out in that preview, and it certainly seems Wolverine there isn't exactly pleased about Thor's efforts to rekindle humanity.

    And the drawing, it's just a sketch, so wasn't planned to and he ended up squished into a corner. I may do a nicer one later that has more personality and is properly planned out. Also think maybe i should nail down a consistent face for him one of these days, i just have never bothered there. But my hand is still healing, though it is doing a lot better these days, i still shouldn't push it too much.
    Last edited by Raye; 09-13-2018 at 11:31 PM.

  10. #4405
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    I didn't know your hand was hurt! I hope it gets better soon! Nothing is worse than not having full use of your hands!

    Does anyone else feel like Marvel is just...well, like a lot of the books feel really confused and hard to follow? Like, in the years leading up to Secret Wars, it felt like there was some undercurrent of an idea that was forming. Same way before Secret Empires. Maybe we do need those big event books? I don't know, I have a high level of tolerance for this stuff, but it just feels really hard to keep up with Marvel right now and it's not for the usual reasons.

    I think the Loki question is coming to a head. KidLoki definitely doesn't seem trustworthy and yes, part of the casting seems to be taking people who really don't have a huge connection with Loki. The only one who does is Angela and she didn't know kidLoki. She knows the current Loki, but she's never seemed especially close to any of her Asgardian family...

    I don't think it's really that kidLoki is hiding. I think he might need the Destroyer armor to stay stable or something. That might be why they're going after a ship full of corpses. One of those corpses might be a Loki corpse he can use to bring himself back completely?

  11. #4406
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Well, it's more of a repetitive strain thing, from using a mouse, (I now use my mouse left handed) and it's something i have been dealing with for years, but it has it's ups and downs. Mostly it's healed these days, but my right hand/index finger is extra sensitive to repetitive motions now, so it can be triggered into flaring up into something quite painful fairly easily. and while i was able to adapt to a mouse left handed, and the Steam Controller for games, drawing is not as easily worked around.

    And I follow a few books mostly in isolation, though i do read events if they interest me or are spinning out of a book I was enjoying anyway (I loved Hickman's Avengers, so Secret Wars was a no brainer, and though I know this is a controversial opinion, i am a huge fan of Spencer's work, which included his work on Captain America, so Secret Empire again was a natural thing for me) my one big weakness in the recent years tho is Loki, his presence will draw me into reading something i don't particularly like, much to my chagrin, when normally I'd just skip it. I would not be giving Infinity Wars a second glance if not for him, and I know i should probably just skip it, but i can't quite help it. Anyway, I got off track there, I was saying i read books in isolation and mostly i've found what i have read to be fairly self contained and make sense, though Avengers and Thor look like they will be having some connection in the future, and I presume Asgardians of the Galaxy will fall into the mix there somewhere, maybe even Venom. But I may just be reading some different books. It can get confusing if you try too hard to over think how the giant jigsaw fits together, so i try to avoid that for the most part, even though it does come up sometimes where I would like to know. (like Avengers and Thor, recently) I'd actually prefer books to stay more self contained, it's enough for me to know that they exist in the same universe and maybe guest star in another book from time to time. Big events can be fun sometimes, but really I am just after a good story and I can usually get my fill of that in a regular book. I think events should be something special, and really mean something when they do happen, and thus should probably happen less frequently. Infinity Wars feels like it was just a Guardians of the Galaxy story that got bumped up to event status when the sales of GotG were failing, and then once it was an event, it had to be bigger scale or something and it kind of unraveled. It may have been better if it was kept smaller scale. But I also just don't like Duggan's voice for some of the characters, but Loki is the worst in that regard. He's improved some, but he's still off.

    As for Kid Loki, he may need the Destroyer armor to stay stable, sure. Also, even if we assume he is a tangible, physical being, which he may very well be, we haven't gotten a lot to go on there, if he is like his predecessor in terms of power, he's strong and durable as are all Asgardians, but in terms of offensive power, he's nowhere in the same realm as adult Loki/Ikol is, nor any of the other members of the team, the armor would keep him on more or less even footing, more than, in some cases. But I think hiding is part of it, or Angela wouldn't be the only one who knows who is in there, and it wouldn't be being treated as some big secret. He'd just tell everyone. but, you may be on to something that he hopes to steal himself an ex-Loki body at the Naglfar Armada. He's died before, so at the very least the Siege era body would be there.

    You know, come to think of it, this may be a way for them to have their cake and eat it too. As I mentioned before, this sub plot of Loki destroying the world goes back to God of Thunder. And if we assume the telling of events in Agent of Asgard still remains true for that event (though it did noticeably change for other events) then it doesn't happen TOO far into the future. God of Thunder was written when Young Avengers was coming out, though I'd have to check specifics with the God Bomb story, that one may have been when Agent of Asgard was going. but either way. If Aaron wants this story to play out the way he wants, he needs a Loki to destroy the world, but there would be pushback form fans, i think, if they undid Loki/Ikol's face turn. so... make a new Loki to full the world destroyer spot so Ikol can just continue on with his life.

    But, on the other hand, as I said I think they may be setting up a mirror situation here. Loki does bad things for a good purpose, and Thor does good things with (unintentional, but still) bad results. I thin it's kind of like... a patient on life support. Thor sees this person gravely ill an wants to save their life at all costs, even though there is no hope for recovery, they will just lay there, wasting away. What he is doing is done out of love, and because he wants to help, but it is causing harm. That person's organs could save a half dozen lives, and they are blockiing up a hospital bed for someone who needs it. Loki wants to cut the life support. Because he knows the universe is a cycle, and that once it dies, it will be reborn just as big and beautiful and vibrant as it was before. This is Marvel canon, we already know it is a cycle, we have evidence, in the form of survivors of the previous cycle, like Galactus. So what is better? keep the dying remains of the universe on life support, or destroy it so it can be reborn?

    If they go that route, i think it would have more impact coming from Ikol. (but far enough in the future that we won't ever see it come ot pass aside from flash-forwards like in next week's Thor)

  12. #4407
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    That sounds awful about your hand! I work on my computer a lot and I live in fear of getting something like that.

    I feel like there's been an issue, for me, of just getting confused. Like, you know when you just start counting the panels because you get lost? Like, I've been doing that a lot lately. Maybe I just need some time away?

    I don't know.

    I think Duggan's Loki is improving, but I'm not sure why that is, which is actually frustrating because it feeds into the confusion of the rest of the event. Why the sudden change in character? Was there some sort of story change we don't know about? It just makes me wonder what Aaron has told other writers.

    Now, as for kidLoki, I agree with you that this probably isn't kidLoki, however, we know that kidLoki could act more like original Loki when he wanted. Now, the issue here is Bunn. I like Bunn. He's one of the most underrated Marvel writers. The man sort of has his own thing going on and his own story he's working out. So I do question how this is actually going to interact with Aaron's overall vision, especially since kidLoki and Angela and Valkyrie are in his wheelhouse.

    Frankly, I think it'd be fun if Thor got kidLoki back only for him to have to kill him. It would hurt him so bad. Or have to pick between Ikol/Current Loki or kidLoki but kidLoki is clearly evil or something.

    I know that we've been waiting for Loki to go to the dark side like Doom and Magneto have, but I don't see that with Loki. He and Thor seem more comfortable with each other. Just look at Infinity War where Thor didn't immediately try and strangle him! That's progress! And if this does introduce an evil Loki, then there we go!

    But does that really solve the "Is Loki Inherently Evil?" question? Because if this evil Loki is just here to take over from Ikol/Current Loki, then that's just basically what we got at the end of Journey into Mystery. That just proves that Loki is a chaotic entity that while not completely evil, isn't really that good either. And anything good he does do will just be wiped away as Lokis murder each other. Now, admittingly, that is really cool, but rather depressing.

    Now, one interesting thing I think deserves mention is that Bunn has written Venom in the past. The guy has written a fair bit of Venom, a character we know is important because the Necrosword Loki has in the future is essentially just a early symbiote.

    What I do have to question is why Angela is helping kidLoki? What does he have over her?

  13. #4408
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebunse View Post
    I think Duggan's Loki is improving, but I'm not sure why that is, which is actually frustrating because it feeds into the confusion of the rest of the event. Why the sudden change in character? Was there some sort of story change we don't know about? It just makes me wonder what Aaron has told other writers.

    Now, as for kidLoki, I agree with you that this probably isn't kidLoki, however, we know that kidLoki could act more like original Loki when he wanted. Now, the issue here is Bunn. I like Bunn. He's one of the most underrated Marvel writers. The man sort of has his own thing going on and his own story he's working out. So I do question how this is actually going to interact with Aaron's overall vision, especially since kidLoki and Angela and Valkyrie are in his wheelhouse.

    Frankly, I think it'd be fun if Thor got kidLoki back only for him to have to kill him. It would hurt him so bad. Or have to pick between Ikol/Current Loki or kidLoki but kidLoki is clearly evil or something.
    I think Duggan has probably just been reacting to feedback. I'd imagine it's not like he actually wants to disappoint fans of the character, after all. Letters to Marvel, Twitter, hell maybe he reads this thread, or other forums, i dunno.

    Yeah he could put on the old school Loki act when he wanted, but the question here is... why would he need to? he'd get more in this situation by being sweet and innocent, you'd think. Also, he'd get more by surrounding himself with people who had become attached to Kid Loki. Like, ok Volstagg is out of action for the time being, but Thor and to a lesser extent Sif would be thrilled that he was alive again if true, they'd totally help him with no need for lies, which makes the people he chose so strange. But even with these people who had no connection to Kid Loki, he won people over by being a sweetheart once, he can do it again. I know Loki said in Young Avengers that he needed to be deceptive because of his past... but that wasn't really true, clearly, Kid Loki demonstrated that. (as long as people were still unaware whose mind was in that body, anyway. things did get more complicated once the big secret was out.) Kid Loki had to resort to it on rare occasions, not a a general rule like Ikol does. He does it because it's what he knows, and I think he enjoys the game. And if it is Kid Loki putting on an act because that's what's needed, fine. But then we have to begin to wonder, if he continues doing that, at what point does it stop being an act and become who he is? (and yes, I get that can be applied to adult Loki as well right now, it's part of danger of him doing his under cover double agent thing. But at least there we have gotten signs of him not enjoying his actions, and that he does have a good intent.) I do wonder if the adult/Ikol Loki will show up in Asgardians of the Galaxy to set things straight, though.


    I know that we've been waiting for Loki to go to the dark side like Doom and Magneto have, but I don't see that with Loki. He and Thor seem more comfortable with each other. Just look at Infinity War where Thor didn't immediately try and strangle him! That's progress! And if this does introduce an evil Loki, then there we go!

    But does that really solve the "Is Loki Inherently Evil?" question? Because if this evil Loki is just here to take over from Ikol/Current Loki, then that's just basically what we got at the end of Journey into Mystery. That just proves that Loki is a chaotic entity that while not completely evil, isn't really that good either. And anything good he does do will just be wiped away as Lokis murder each other. Now, admittingly, that is really cool, but rather depressing.
    I don't think the point was ever that Loki (or anyone else) is inherently good or evil, more that they aren't inherently good or evil. There's a difference, it's a question of fixed absolutes vs fluid complexity, rather than a simple question of good or evil. It can be somewhere in the middle, and I think Loki works best in the middle area. It can also shift over time, or just based on different situations, he doesn't have to be pinned to either extreme all the time. Though I don't want him to fail at his face turn, and want him to lean more towards the good overall in terms of intent, he wouldn't really feel like Loki any more if he was completely altruistic and good, like Captain America or someone. He's complicated, as are most people, with a mix of good and bad traits, and that's ok, as long as he doesn't completely get sucked in by the bad again.

    It's just that when we see him doing something not so great, it makes me worry that what's happening is them undoing the face turn, a reversion to his old characterization, which I am against on general principle. So i think that it may sometimes seem like i want him to be more good than i really want him to be at times, because i fret over his bad actions. It's hard to not see every bad thing as a potential sign that he's going bad again. Playing to these worries is more than likely totally intentional. And it's actually good that I, and I presume some others, worry about him in this way, it means we are invested and want the best for him. But really, i do want him to be kinda gray area, and it's ok if he kinda resorts to shady things sometimes, because that's what makes him him.

    Now, one interesting thing I think deserves mention is that Bunn has written Venom in the past. The guy has written a fair bit of Venom, a character we know is important because the Necrosword Loki has in the future is essentially just a early symbiote.

    What I do have to question is why Angela is helping kidLoki? What does he have over her?
    This is something that's been bugging me as well. The Loki Angela knows is adult/Ikol Loki, that's the Loki she sorta-kinda helped in Vote Loki. She wasn't even around when Kid Loki was a thing, (well, I guess Young Avengers, when he was in a kid body but Ikol mind, may have been going on when she was in Guardians of the Galaxy, but still, she hadn't met him then, she didn't even know she was Asgardian at that point) so why would she be going along with some kid version she'd never met before, when she had actually had pretty good experiences with Loki up till that point? I could actually buy the others going along with it easier than she would, at least some of them would at least be AWARE of Kid Loki's existence, even if they had never met him. He obviously promised her something, and I suspect it's that he somehow knows where Sera is.

    and I very much doubt Bunn will touch on any of the far flung future stuff or anything with the Necrosword. That's Aaron's thing, it will be resolved entirely in Thor, more than likely.
    Last edited by Raye; 09-15-2018 at 05:52 AM.

  14. #4409
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    Well, part of kidLoki-or someone who looks like him-probably realizes that if Thor saw him now, Thor would probably give him a big hug and quickly lock him in a tower. Or he'd be instantly suspicious and lock him in a tower. What I mean is, the kid would end up in a tower or something either for his own safety or because Thor didn't trust him. And the same for most of the other Asgardians. And then if this isn't kidLoki, then he'd be forced to blow his cover. If this is kidLoki, then he'd have to go through extra stuff to break out.

    Nope, no matter who he is, if he's using that form, then it doesn't make sense to show himself.

    I guess part of the issue here is just that comics are like life. They go on for way longer than novels do, so the normal structure of doesn't apply. And you know I like this, but I really don't want it to involve a constant supply of murderous Lokis.

    Angela may not hate Ikol/Current Loki, she may even have some sort of familiarity with him, but she also knows that he's working for Malekith and I'm sure she knows that she'd rather not trust him if she didn't have to. And the lack of Sera is troubling. Angela didn't seem worried about the corpse ship, so her corpse can't be on the ship. And I really hope they don't just kill Sera off whenever they need some drama for Angela. That would not only be rather offensive, but it would also be so annoying. However, it's basically what they do with every other LI for everyone else, so...that's good? Maybe?

    Plus, she also knows that there's another Loki wandering around, so I can't see her just being OK and gun-ho with whatever this Loki wants even if it does involve Sera. So this kidLoki must not only know about Sera, but then, you're right Raye, Angela must really think that it is kidLoki or a Loki she can sort of trust.

    I guess we just don't have enough information to go on.

  15. #4410
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    I think we have plenty to go on. If Kid Loki is involved, then it's part of the ongoing story that started in JIM. Everything in between is evidence for where it could go.

    There are a bunch of hints in Asgardians, like the lies and deception bits and Kid's voice being just a little sinister. And then there's that caption that acknowledges that Kid should not exist. Put those together and it's really clear that this is meant to be part of the larger Kid Loki-Loki story.

    Based on that, there are many interesting ways it could go. They're speculation, but they're not unfounded speculation. They're hypotheses. It's not like any of this is coming out of nowhere.

    For example, Kid is back. He should not be back, based on the previous story. In fact, it should not be possible for him to be back, as he seemed to have been overwritten and bringing him back would be like recovering files from a hard drive that was first fragmented and then erased. So we know something is up.

    We also know that Kid is in the Destroyer. Last time we saw it, your body did not go inside; you piloted it with your spirit/soul. So either the rules of the Destroyer have changed or Kid isn't strictly physical. That's not a guess, that's a pretty much definite either/or, based on the rules of the fictional world. Fictional worlds always have rules and good stories either follow them or break them intentionally. Only bad stories treat the internal logic of the fictional universe without care.

    If Kid is not bodily within the Destroyer, that would make it likely that something to do with Ikol/Loki taking his body caused it (or that he's from the Soul Stone) and that a body is his goal. Hence the speculation above. It's not guesses. It's based on the text.

    We know that Thor felt very strongly for Kid. So strongly that he nearly killed Loki. He loved that he finally had the brother he always wanted and thought of him as innocent. We know Thor distrusts Loki and is apt to jump to the conclusion that anything suspicious is Loki's doing. Thor isn't going to lock Kid up. For one, when was the last time Thor locked anyone up? For two, we know from previous stories that it's likely that Thor will have one of or a combination of two reactions:

    1. He immediately accepts Kid as real and true and still the Kid that he loved from the start. If Kid is not the original Kid in original form -- and as noted above, there's ample evidence that he's either something else or somehow changed -- then this would give good story possibilities for Kid to betray or take advantage of Thor. This would be a way to get Thor and Loki to finally truly reconcile if it makes Thor realize that Loki is more Kid than this new Kid is. Or Thor might think that this is another of Loki's schemes and that Loki is being cruel by corrupting the "innocent" Kid.

    2. Thor rejects Kid, knowing that it's impossible or near-impossible that Kid could come back. Most likely, he attacks Loki for this, as even if Thor is sure Kid is a trick or imposter, he'll be unable to actually attack Kid, so he'll hit that default again and accuse Loki. He's likely to think of this as a particularly cruel trick, since Loki knows exactly how Thor felt about Kid.

    Now, because of events at the God Quarry and Infinity Stone shenanigans, and the fact that we've been told that AotG comes out of Infinity Wars, combined with SIX YEARS of this story, it seems likely that Loki has something to do with Kid being back. We know that killing/erasing Kid was Loki's big, unforgivable sin, and it's been present in every single story told since it happened, though sometimes in subtle ways. For an example of the subtle bit for that, there is no real story reason for Thori the Hel-Dog to be around -- except to make it clear that this is an extension of the story the gave us both Thori and the unforgivable sin. Thor may have softened toward Loki a little bit, but Thori is there to remind the readers of what happened before without necessarily having to have Thor and Loki stop all the big bombastic netherworld action and talk about it.

    This makes it likely that either Loki consciously chose to bring Kid back to attempt to correct the murder he committed or that he happened upon Kid and decided to try to make things right by bringing him "home," maybe giving him the best body he could find as a stopgap -- the Destroyer. Now, whether Kid being off is due to Loki's actions or due to some Pet Sematary-like rule in this case is completely up in the air, since both would make sense with what has already been set up, and each has different story possibilities.

    TL;DR: It's true that we don't know what story Bunn is telling just yet, but we know he's placing it as a continuation of the story that started in JIM and therefore can make educated speculation on what the most likely courses might be.

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