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  1. #3676
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaimaciel View Post
    I have been reading a few bits and pieces of the comics that show up online, not the entire comic. I don't think that counts as reading the comics, if all I do is read a few panels. However, from what I did see, the joy I had when I was reading JIM, YA and AoA is gone. I used be excited about the next comic, but now I've mostly been either bored or disappointed. I gotta be honest, the Doctor Strange stuff isn't very exciting for me, mostly because we all know Stephen is gonna get his title back and I'm a bit nervous about what will happen to Loki afterwards.

    I'm sorry if I sound like a killjoy. I didn't mean it.
    I think to fully appreciate what is being done with Loki, you pretty much have to read everything that's been done with him since Dark Reign. JiM, YA, AoA, AXIS, the Secret Wars tie-ins, this Thor run, and there are probably others that I'm missing. It's actually a really interesting thing to see unfold, especially given how disjointed modern comics can feel. Loki has had his own little story woven into the larger Marvel narrative, one which many writers have been happy to add to and use themselves.

    The problem now is that you really have to be aware of the whole thing or else you miss certain elements and scenes and don't see the larger picture.

    Part of the problem we have overall is that, really, the entire Thor story is this. We've seen the Asgardians try and fail to acclimate to their new directionless situation. My interpretation is that while the Ragnarok cycle mostly dealt with the Asgardians with some overlap with the other realms, the Norns have a greater effect on everyone, including the Dark elves. It's less about roles and who does what and more about the events that are going to happen.

    But I think it's important to note that even with the Norns and all that, Aaron is writing Loki in such a way that he isn't exactly helping himself. Loki is falling into old patterns because he's putting himself into bad situations where he sort of has to be mean to get anything done. I think we're even seeing this in Duggan's Loki. He's got to stop not only the Guardians, but the Nova Corps, the Elders of the Universe, those weird brainwashed bird people, Thanos, probably Cable. He's sort of has to do some pretty bad things just to throw them off.

  2. #3677
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Well, kaimaciel has read everything up until Mighty Thor, missing all the backstory is not their problem, obviously. And I don't think it is necessary to read all of that to understand things, anyway. Gain a fuller appreciation, sure, but that is the same with any character where the more backstory you read the better you understand them. But there should always be a point at which reading everything should not be required, and I think we are kind of getting there with Loki. Yeah, if you hadn't read at least one of the 3 big Loki books that came before, you would probably assume Loki was just the bad guy in Thor, but I think Aaron knows and wants that. He is totally anticipating part of the audience viewing Loki's actions while missing pieces of the puzzle, and he is using that. He is dropping enough hints that those of us in the know can see that Loki is doing a deep cover thing, but knowing that aspect is not essential to understanding the story, and those that don't know will get a surprise reveal later, which will have a somewhat lessened impact on us.

    And with GotG... He really doesn't have to do awful things just to throw them off. No one knows he is looking for the stones, not because of anything he has done, but because no one is expecting him to in the first place. If anything, all he has done is put them on the trail. And he certainly doesn't have to talk the way he does to himself when no one is watching. Duggan is writing him out of character, that is all there is to it. That doesn't mean he is a bad writer, it could be just that he is unaware of his recent development and editorial is not bothering to correct him. But he is still out of character.

  3. #3678
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    Well, kaimaciel has read everything up until Mighty Thor, missing all the backstory is not their problem, obviously. And I don't think it is necessary to read all of that to understand things, anyway. Gain a fuller appreciation, sure, but that is the same with any character where the more backstory you read the better you understand them. But there should always be a point at which reading everything should not be required, and I think we are kind of getting there with Loki. Yeah, if you hadn't read at least one of the 3 big Loki books that came before, you would probably assume Loki was just the bad guy in Thor, but I think Aaron knows and wants that. He is totally anticipating part of the audience viewing Loki's actions while missing pieces of the puzzle, and he is using that. He is dropping enough hints that those of us in the know can see that Loki is doing a deep cover thing, but knowing that aspect is not essential to understanding the story, and those that don't know will get a surprise reveal later, which will have a somewhat lessened impact on us.

    And with GotG... He really doesn't have to do awful things just to throw them off. No one knows he is looking for the stones, not because of anything he has done, but because no one is expecting him to in the first place. If anything, all he has done is put them on the trail. And he certainly doesn't have to talk the way he does to himself when no one is watching. Duggan is writing him out of character, that is all there is to it. That doesn't mean he is a bad writer, it could be just that he is unaware of his recent development and editorial is not bothering to correct him. But he is still out of character.
    It's definitely a very different experience depending on how you're reading Loki related comics. And yes, Aaron is definitely writing things that are going to work differently depending on your reading history, which isn't bad. It's a unique feature of comics which either works really well or falls flat. Thankfully, Aaron is one of the masters of it.

    But for me, I like what Marvel has allowed to work with Loki. It's not something you see happen with every character, though when it does, it's great. We've seen this with Deadpool, X-23, and sort of with Miles Morales. And probably more if I could remember them.

    And I guess my thing with Duggan is, he's not writing Loki just directly after Secret Wars. He's writing a Loki who's already beginning to crack from what he's doing in Thor, a Loki who is already risking villainy again and who is falling into old patterns.

  4. #3679
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    But I don't think Loki is cracking, at least not in that way. He is doing bad things in Thor, but he HATES it, and i have seen no evidence that has evolved into him enjoying what he's doing. if anything it seems to have gone the other way, where he initially felt almost relieved to be slipping back into his old role, but then came to realize it no longer fit. He doesn't revel in it at all. He obviously feels forced to do what he's doing. We don't know all the details as to why he feels that way, but the emotion there is clear. He feels like he has to, but it is very begrudging and sad. It can't really go the other way if him backstabbing Malekith is going to make sense. He has to reach the point where he goes 'nope, not doing this anymore' and him gradually becoming more ok with things as he goes along rather than less means he can't reach that breaking point. That's why I am saying it's not what he's doing, but how he's acting that I have a problem with. I am not getting that begrudging sadness from Duggan's Loki.

    ANOTHER interview from Donny Cates: https://marvel.com/files/podcasts/mc...onny_cates.mp3

    It is about several things he's doing with Marvel, and how he got into writing, not just Doctor Strange. He's a lot more coy with some of the details but there is one VERY interesting detail that he let slip there, which definitely points to Loki keeping the title. He says he got 'handed the keys' to Loki. so... that may just be him wording it a bit weird, but if not, it sounds like Loki being Sorcerer Supreme was not his pitch. That must have been Aaron. Also, he says something about Loki feeling like magic should bow down to him, like he sees himself as 'the god of magic' and i could kinda see how that could lead some dark places. But I suspect he will learn his lesson in the end.
    Last edited by Raye; 10-23-2017 at 04:16 PM.

  5. #3680
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    But I don't think Loki is cracking, at least not in that way. He is doing bad things in Thor, but he HATES it, and i have seen no evidence that has evolved into him enjoying what he's doing. if anything it seems to have gone the other way, where he initially felt almost relieved to be slipping back into his old role, but then came to realize it no longer fit. He doesn't revel in it at all. He obviously feels forced to do what he's doing. We don't know all the details as to why he feels that way, but the emotion there is clear. He feels like he has to, but it is very begrudging and sad. It can't really go the other way if him backstabbing Malekith is going to make sense. He has to reach the point where he goes 'nope, not doing this anymore' and him gradually becoming more ok with things as he goes along rather than less means he can't reach that breaking point. That's why I am saying it's not what he's doing, but how he's acting that I have a problem with. I am not getting that begrudging sadness from Duggan's Loki.

    ANOTHER interview from Donny Cates: https://marvel.com/files/podcasts/mc...onny_cates.mp3

    It is about several things he's doing with Marvel, and how he got into writing, not just Doctor Strange. He's a lot more coy with some of the details but there is one VERY interesting detail that he let slip there, which definitely points to Loki keeping the title. He says he got 'handed the keys' to Loki. so... that may just be him wording it a bit weird, but if not, it sounds like Loki being Sorcerer Supreme was not his pitch. That must have been Aaron. Also, he says something about Loki feeling like magic should bow down to him, like he sees himself as 'the god of magic' and i could kinda see how that could lead some dark places. But I suspect he will learn his lesson in the end.
    Loki's magic isn't exactly the same as Strange's. He doesn't face some of the constraints and consequences as Strange and mortal magic users do. It makes sense that he's not going to have the same respect for magic as others would. But yes, that'll certainly lead to some dark places! Especially given the state of magic in the MU at this time.

    This does make me wonder just what Aaron has planned. If he pitched it and gave it to another writer, that likely means that he didn't have time for it himself, which given his upcoming schedule, makes the most sense. But it also means that there was already a guideline for Coates to follow that works well with Aaron's Thor run.

    I find that the sadness in Duggan's run comes mostly from the art. Nowhere does Loki look happy or like he's even having a fun time like he normally would. With the Gardner, he even looks sort of drunk throughout the whole thing and in the last issue, he clearly isn't happy. But I like what you mean by this not being a good "fit' for him anymore. He's outgrown it, he's moved past it and he can't even have fun with it anymore. It doesn't help that things are much different than they were in the old days. Back then, he could have done a lot of bad things, but Thor still forgave him. He still had a seat at Odin's table.

    Now, he is spending a bunch of time with Laufey, the worst person he could be hanging around with.

  6. #3681
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebunse View Post
    Loki's magic isn't exactly the same as Strange's. He doesn't face some of the constraints and consequences as Strange and mortal magic users do. It makes sense that he's not going to have the same respect for magic as others would. But yes, that'll certainly lead to some dark places! Especially given the state of magic in the MU at this time.

    This does make me wonder just what Aaron has planned. If he pitched it and gave it to another writer, that likely means that he didn't have time for it himself, which given his upcoming schedule, makes the most sense. But it also means that there was already a guideline for Coates to follow that works well with Aaron's Thor run.
    I mean, it really may have been just him wording it a bit strangely, and he did actually put that part in his pitch. But Aaron did seem to leave the book kind of abruptly, and then it sort of floundered there for a bit under Hopeless who just basically just did the tie-ins for Secret Empire, though i remember a couple interviews and stuff when he took over and it seemed like he had longer plans, so i dunno what all happened there, then Barber for 2 issues which were truly filler issues. I mean, one is billed as an anniversary issue, but they are both done-in-one standalone stories that don't really advance the larger story at all, just, 'oh, here's this bad guy, and then Strange and Zelma beat them' they were obviously just treading water until Cates run could begin. But anyway, with Aaron leaving the book so suddenly, presumably because he had discovered he had bitten off more than he could chew, there may have been something left that he needed to happen which he never got to, such as Loki being made Sorcerer Supreme, which I presume would tie into the Final Host story. If the team that faces the Final Host (or IS the Final Host, depending on how you look at it) is made up of the current title holders of the original team from a million years ago, and Loki definitely does seem to have a part to play in that story, then he needs to fill one of those legacies, and the Sorcerer Supreme is definitely the one that makes the most sense for him. I guess maybe he could take Odin's spot, but we all know Thor will end up there. Not like Loki's going to go become a new Iron Fist, Black Panther, Phoenix avatar or Ghost Rider, after all, that wouldn't work at all. all that's really left is the Sorcerer Supreme, and Loki is already a powerful sorcerer, so it works. Everything else could have been up to Cates, it doesn't sound like he is just following an existing plot, as long as he worked in that one thing. "do whatever you want, BUT Loki has to be Sorcerer Supreme to fit with this Final Host thing Aaron is doing. Also, he's searching for the Infinity Gems." It's a pretty big thing, granted, but given his obvious love for Marvel's Asgard stuff, and for Jason Aaron's work as he said in that interview, I could see him going along with it when some others might not have.

    Also, possibly semi-related, he said on Twitter today (where i found that interview) that he's writing a pitch today for a series he's loved since he was 4. I'm thinking it may be Thor. It's definitely got to be one of the big books if it was around when he was 4, he's Marvel exclusive so can't be a DC book, and Aaron has been writing the book now for 60+ issues, if you count the ones that have been solicited. He's already had a longer run on the book than any other writer. He's going to leave it sooner or later, and I would imagine that after how well received it has been in terms of sales, they are going to get pitches in early so they don't end up with the floundering that happened on Doctor Strange. I mean, that's just a guess, and even if true, no guarantee Marvel would accept his pitch. But I think he would be a very good replacement for Aaron. again.

    I find that the sadness in Duggan's run comes mostly from the art. Nowhere does Loki look happy or like he's even having a fun time like he normally would. With the Gardner, he even looks sort of drunk throughout the whole thing and in the last issue, he clearly isn't happy. But I like what you mean by this not being a good "fit' for him anymore. He's outgrown it, he's moved past it and he can't even have fun with it anymore. It doesn't help that things are much different than they were in the old days. Back then, he could have done a lot of bad things, but Thor still forgave him. He still had a seat at Odin's table.

    Now, he is spending a bunch of time with Laufey, the worst person he could be hanging around with.
    I am just really not getting the sadness there, any bit of sadness that may be in the art, which I am not really seeing, frankly, is undercut by the dialogue. In Aaron's Thor, he looks sad in the art, and it is also supported by bits of the dialogue, particularly when Loki is alone or muttering something behind someone's (usually Laufey or Malekith's) back. We've seen Loki talking to himself in GotG, and he's just belittling and arrogant.

    But yeah, I think when Loki initially agreed to be Freyja's spy, he figured it would be easy for him. Same thing he's always done, no big deal. But then he found himself forced to do certain things, and while he decided they were necessary either to continue his mission or to further his larger plans, he certainly isn't enjoying being back in his old role.

  7. #3682
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    Loki as Sorcerer Supreme is sort of one of those stories that writers itself, really. And given how little Strange actually does get his own series and given how this ties so well into a bunch of other stories, a lot of writers would kill for the chance to write it. I can't imagine it would have been a hard sell to give someone. Of course, it also means that it has to tie into Aaron's work, Duggan's and whoever else is working right now. It would help if we knew how much planning this had. We knew for weeks in advance that Secret Wars had been planned for at least two years in advance, though it's been speculated that it had been planned for even longer than that. Is this Infinity Stone thing the same or was it something they realize they needed to do but then realized that there was a reason they didn't use the Stones that often anymore?

    Those things are ridiculously overpowered.

    I still have faith in Duggan and I think this is just an area where we're going to have to agree to disagree, though I totally agree with you about Loki's taking this job in the beginning. It's not like he had been in Asgard for a bit to even realize the situation, then realized that he had to do something to change it. And that something lead to where we are now. Not that we really have that much evidence that even the original Loki always had fun doing all of his insanely evil crap. Heck, that's part of the reason he concocted the most elaborate suicide plan in the history of fiction: It just wasn't fun for him anymore.

  8. #3683
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Well, depends on the writer and the story. I think most writers actually want their books to be completely their own, and to not have to tie into anything else (unless they are the ones steering the ship, or they can opt in only if it serves their story). Freedom is good, creatively. Coming up with your own ideas rather than doing what you are told, or having to work around another writer's story is more creatively fulfilling. That is not always possible, however, in a shared universe, and sometimes you just have to go with things. Especially complicated when dealing with something like this, where you have Loki appearing in several books at once, is taking over one of the MU's most prominent positions, and is apparently heavily involved in a high profile upcoming story/event, and in Doctor Strange's case in particular, he HAS to be there, it must be addressed, because he's taking Strange's traditional title. Anything that happens to him in one of those books, though certain books will steer the ship more than the others, will have to be reflected in the others to some extent. And that can be very limiting to a writer, you are very restricted in what you can do with that character in many ways. You can't have them make any major character development, you can't give them a new relationship, you can't go 'oh i think they should get trapped on another planet for the next year and a half' and so on, at least not without getting the OK from whoever is steering the ship. But that's not to say it's impossible, or anything, it's just harder to work with. But it's the job when working for the big two and just something you have to do sometimes. I am sure it will still be fun, based on what we have seen. Just saying that IF this is something he was told he had to include, (and we don't know for sure, this is based on not much) it wasn't necessarily a pure joy to write, even though I am sure he tried to make it as interesting and fun for himself as possible. And it is possible he heard the scenario, and it gave him an idea that clicked or something in a way that he is genuinely excited about. I mean, JIM was born out of an event, (one that is not particularly well regarded, no less) was based in a large part on a recent radical change to Loki done by another writer, and it crossed over with 2 other books. so, yeah, can totally be done. But it's harder.

    and i suspect we will only know for sure how long the Infinity Gem/Final Host (pretty sure they are one and the same thing) story has been in the works once it comes out. but it was teased as far back as Mighty Thor #7, which was released in May of 2016, but it was probably at least a vague idea some time before that.
    Last edited by Raye; 10-23-2017 at 10:04 PM.

  9. #3684
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    I meant more that this is a big opportunity for Coate's career as a comic book writer. If he gets good reviews here, then he'll likely be given bigger series down the line.

  10. #3685
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    ah, yeah, probably. Though his creator owned stuff hit with a pretty big splash, and caught a lot of people's attention, so he's already got an exclusive with Marvel. He could be like the next Tom King who kind of came out of nowhere with Grayson, and who Marvel lost to DC due to an exclusive, much to their chagrin, i am sure. But Donny signed with Marvel, so if he works out, that will be a big win for everyone all round. if you listen to the interview, you will learn he used to be an intern at Marvel. So he's also kinda got a bit of an 'in' there, in that he at least knows a lot of the editors.

  11. #3686

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    To be honest, I'm not sure that the moment in TMT 700 is so much taking away the win of AOA, so much as just inevitably contradicting one of its major themes. Think about it- AOA was all about Loki feeling pressured by an inevitable dark future, when it actually turned out the future was much more changeable than he assumed- 'won't sit long in any box you make for it' and all that. The point was that the future is always in flux, and change is inevitable and not to necessarily be feared. AOA Loki didn't really change his fate directly in the fateful moment when he exploded into the god of stories, that change was set up far earlier, by the simple difference of having Verity Willis as a friend.

    But, as much as I love and prefer that changeable interpretation of fate it's... utterly incompatible with the whole idea of fate ~always being fixed~ right up until the Norns are taken out. And that probably serves some greater purpose in the story Aaron is telling and whatever, but it still causes an unfortunate seemingly unavoidable clash with Ewing's excellent storytelling from before.

    ...Oh, and here's a little interview from Newsarama while I'm at it, not so much new stuff as just supporting what we've been thinking :P https://www.newsarama.com/37082-donn...interview.html

  12. #3687
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    geez, how many interviews has he given?

    Nrama: Agamotto (as in, the Eye of) appeared during Marvel Legacy #1, as well as Loki. We know some of those characters - and that story – will play a role in Marvel’s future. Will we see that come up here?
    Credit: Mike Deodato Jr. (Marvel Comics)

    Cates: And now you've come to the most infuriating part of the interview. [Laughs] Man, if you all only knew what that stuff is setting up... whoo boy... I'm not confirming or denying anything, but I will say this... Marvel fans are about to have a really good year.
    though he said NOTHING, the question asked and the WAY he said nothing is intriguing to me there.

    And yeah, I can understand why Aaron did it to an extent. But I guess my problem there is that all this has been in the works for so long, that why did editorial approve that ending in the first place, if they had to have known it was going to be rendered all but meaningless in the not too distant future? I suspect certain aspects in Agent of Asgard were intended to set up a particular status quo that Aaron wanted in Thor, such as making Thor hate Loki, so why let THAT slip by?
    Last edited by Raye; 10-25-2017 at 06:19 PM.

  13. #3688
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    So, is the general consensus that the King Thor storyline is what was fated to happen, but is now subject to change because Karnilla cut the threads of fate? It's something I've wondered before, since it seems like a bad future, but I have to wonder how it ties into the present day. (It's a question that would also fit in the Thor thread, but I don't feel like going over there atm.). In fact, I'd guess that it's that future that Karnilla is trying to avert with her dying words, which are the subject of more speculation.

    I continue to be hyped for the upcoming arc in Doctor Strange, even if Cates has gone out of his way in recent interviews to stress that it is primarily Strange's story. I still think it may spin into a relaunch of some sorts in the Spring, but we will have to see. Also, aside from likely tying into whatever the final host story is, is anyone else getting the feeling that part of the twist on Loki's part will be that there isn't one? Everyone expects him to have an angle, and it may be wishful thinking, but there were a few lines that seemed to imply he really is taking the job seriously and not using it as an empty power grab. The one interview where Cates let it slip (?) that he's still on the redemptive path, and then the latest linked one where we have both the following: "At least with Loki, you know a game is being played around you. Or do you? Hmmm..." And from the artist: "And I think that being the new Sorcerer Supreme brings another layer to him, as he feels the responsibility of protecting the Earth from all the mystical attacks. Maybe he's tired of being the bad guy all the time - but who knows? "

    To me it's like they want to badly to spill the beans but feel obliged to keep the mystery going. So it's like, "He's still on the redemptive path. OR IS HE?" (and the detail about him feeling more responsibility seems rather specific).

  14. #3689
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riimi View Post
    To me it's like they want to badly to spill the beans but feel obliged to keep the mystery going. So it's like, "He's still on the redemptive path. OR IS HE?" (and the detail about him feeling more responsibility seems rather specific).
    "But he's going about it the wrong way!"
    Which differentiates him from Strange and other heroes....how?

  15. #3690
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    I dunno, I think that may have been an unintended side effect, but not the intent of the attack. If it was, you would think Loki would have been involved with the attack, at the very least keeping an eye on it, rather than having a chat with Laufey, since he would be the only one to care about that particular fate. And the breaking of fate isn't likely to last as long as that, anyway. It was only Karnilla that died, the Norns themselves escaped. As soon as their castle can be rebuilt, they can spin fates again. Maybe Loki would take Karnilla's place? The fate Malekith was trying to avert was probably simply losing the War of the Realms. Loki may have given him some prodding, but it is highly doubtful Malekith would want to break Loki's fate, because that is the only thing keeping him at his side right now. (though I guess he probably doesn't realize that) Also, the fate Karnilla tried to warn Thor about had to do with Jane, so... either to not let her die, or to not let her do something. Either way, something much more short term.

    As for Doctor Strange, I think the twist may be that Loki only ever wanted it temporarily, to help with the Final Host thing, and as soon as that was done he's planning to just give it back. So Strange going all crazy trying to take it back was always completely unnecessary. As you mentioned before, Loki's not the type who would want to be tied down long term. But if Strange's actions are as bad as they are kinda sounding they might be from the solicits and covers, Loki may be faced with the prospect of having to keep it out of Strange's hands longer than he intended because he's gone off the deep end. So he'd end up having to keep it, but for good reasons. Though I guess he could also just pass it on to Wiccan or someone in that case.

    I wonder, if they do a Loki book spinning out of Doctor Strange, would his Legacy numbering include JIM or not? I am thinking the 4 issue miniseries he had wouldn't count since that was an alternate reality. But would we get Loki #18 coming out of Agent of Asgard, or Loki #41? (maybe more? like, would the crossover issues in Mighty Thor and New Mutants count?) I think JIM should count. *edit i just remembered there were TWO miniseries, so the Blood Brothers one wouldn't count because it's an alternate reality but the other one... might?
    Last edited by Raye; 10-26-2017 at 03:06 PM.

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