Loki Appreciation 2018

[Riimi]

Yeah, the part about the Vishanti had me wondering, too. Makes it seem like they weren't involved in transferring the title back to Strange, or did so only reluctantly (though, again, why not just chose someone else?). It does also make it sound like Strange hasn't realized the full extent of what he's done, since the Vishanti removed him for being mortal and for failing, not for using questionable methods, and the solicit makes it seem like it's only a question of whether he deserves the title because he's close to failing again.

Trying to figure it out, I was wondering if the arc wasn't entirely over yet, or if there was going to be a part 2. Partly because it seemed implied that the Vishanti gave Loki the title in order to do something (and Cates said that we should be asking 'why' he was Sorcerer Supreme while reading) and that's been left undone. Even rebalancing magic is something any Sorcerer Supreme could ostensibly do with the spell if it wasn't tied to Zelma. So we haven't seen that yet. Though this is probably me reaching because I thought Loki being Sorcerer Supreme was a neat concept and I'm sad it's over so quickly.

The other part of the story that's been left undone, as I kind of mentioned in the first paragraph, is Strange realizing that he crossed some major lines. Iirc, the first solicit for Damnation does mention something about showing the world he can still be a hero, so maybe there has been some fallout. Still, that's really why he should be questioning his fitness as Sorcerer Supreme now, not because the situation looks bad (okay, the ability to do the job is also important, but I'm expecting it to be more of a comic book 'Oh no! Will our hero fail?' sort of thing than him actually tanking and burning). Granted, his realization that he was wrong could all be handled with internal character development with no (or minimal) need for Loki to re-appear in the story and thus wouldn't require the arc to continue. Realizing that Loki actually wasn't threatening the world (or Zelma) like Strange thought might be an impetus for him to re-evaluate his actions (assuming it isn't some authorial trick where he's been evil this whole time, which would really undermine the entire story arc, as I've probably said). The easiest way to achieve this would be for Loki to show back up again; however, I don't think it's strictly necessary for Strange to realize that Loki may have been in the right, so much as it is for him to realize that he himself was in the wrong.

[Raye]

About the thing the Vishanti gave the tile for, it's true, that thing hasn't even been revealed yet, let alone happened, and that is a good point, about him having had the title removed because he was mortal and had failed in his duties, not because he was being an *******. So I'm kinda wondering if it is that Strange somehow took the title back by force, (though again, I don't understand how that could work, but let's just assume for a second here that he can) and that ends up fucking things up. That the thing really does require a god, specifically. A real god, not just (temporarily, i imagine) granted powers like one by the World Tree. So his wounded pride and sense of entitlement in regards to the position of Sorcerer Supreme, his notion that the title should be his regardless of what the Vishanti decide, puts the world in danger. Because yeah, it doesn't really feel like one more issue is enough to wrap things up. It doesn't really feel like anything came of this arc, for either Loki or Strange, it feels like a minor blip of little consequence to either character if it just moves on to the next thing after next issue, even with the rather extreme actions Strange resorted to. I mean, it would hardly be the first time he's resorted to such measures and then the story moved past them. But that's all just speculation, we don't have a lot to go on here. I just know that it would feel underwhelming if nothing much came of this.

As for Strange realizing what he's done is wrong, I think he knows, at least somewhat, based on his captions, but is still justifying it to himself as the greater good.

[Fanto.mx]

I really like the idea that the Thanos future is Strange's fault. It's time for him to have a reckoning. As I mentioned back in my last post here, his history for the past 10 years or so has been him being a villain while being heralded as a hero, with the possible exception of the bit in SW2 where he became fairly responsible for the broken world and ended up getting melted for it.

If we get Strange stealing the title from Loki somehow, we get a reversal of that expectation and it really solidifies the overall reversal. Loki has moved from being motivated by jealousy, ego, and entitlement to trying to do the wrong thing and Strange has moved along the same axis the other direction. I'm not overly invested in Loki being canonized as a hero or Strange being canonized as a villain (and indeed the canonization of character categories is one thing I think this story is really pushing against, an excellent extension of the concepts around Loki introduced in JIM and AoA), but consequences of these movements sure would be nice.

[dr4conianlaw]

Oh, heck.

So we agree that there's a decently good chance Zelma could get hurt somehow next issue, right? And that the whole role reversal between Strange and Loki is clearly a big part of the themes of this arc, right?

Well, Strange is doing a fine job of mirroring the ye olde God of Evil, there's not much need for him to go much further on that front. On the other hand, while Loki has done a fine job of his duties with the 'Sorcerer Supreme' part, there's still another role Strange has that Loki could have to take on.

...Doctor.

(I'm super torn about this, because I Don't want Zelma to get hurt... but at least this would be a way for her to get hurt and still survive...)

[Riimi]

Huh, having Loki as a Doctor would be neat and also fill the role reversal. From what we know so far, it does seem as though Strange will cast the spell to redistribute magic (the solicits talk about a new magical landscape and how his first act back as Sorcerer Supreme backfired). I mean, it isn't a sure bet, but the spell seems a bit of a Chekov's gun. Someone needs to use it, and I think Strange is more likely to at this point than Loki is.

[Raye]

I just don't know why Loki would want to take that role, though. At least not long term. I mean, there's nothing stopping him from using healing magic right this second, I'm certain he knows some, and could use it to save Zelma. but i don't think that would be a 'role' exactly. A nod to Strange, sure, but... not a role. I know he is struggling to find a role for himself that works right now, but that just seems like a major step down, so small scale. He's a god, after all. I think there is some definite mirroring going on, but it doesn't have to be that exact for it to work, it just needs to be a role that's new to him. And we already know he will be going after the Mind (probably) gem, and most likely be part of the new Infinity Watch. Hard to say what his role there will be, the Infinity Watch is not a team that is really defined by good or evil, it's just... each member has a stone, and they are supposed to keep them apart, so the Gauntlet won't be made. (of course, there was that teaser in Thor of Loki with the Gauntlet, so...) I know them hanging out together really seems contrary to that goal, but whatever, that's what they were back in the 90's. and the team as it has been revealed so far has characters all across the spectrum of good and evil, so it is very hard to say what it means for Loki.

And I think it will be Loki that casts the spell. Strange is not exactly in a position to do so, right now. I don't think he is really in control right now at all, so if it comes from his body, it will probably be as the Void, who of course would have zero qualms about killing Zelma, and would also not have any incentive to use the spell for a good purpose, he'd likely just use it to power himself up to even more absurd levels, likely destroying magic in the process, not fixing it. It would be very very bad, basically. And Loki will need something to turn the tide against the Void, the spell could be that thing. Also, there must be something that makes Strange and/or the readers (those who are still assuming he's up to no good) to realize he was wrong about Loki. In the captions after Bats died, he said he realized that Loki did not do it intentionally, so at some point he must come to realize Loki wasn't acting with bad intent, and there must be something that triggers that realization. But I wish those captions were more consistent though, sometimes they are seemingly being told by him at some point in the future, recounting how this all went down, with the benefit of hindsight. Sometimes they are more present tense, and the inconsistency there makes things a bit muddy.

But yes, I think there is a very good chance Zelma will be hurt or die, she is not present at all in the solicits after this, which is not a good sign. (but then again, neither is Loki, and we know he's fine. But he is not a squishy mortal with a spell attached to her which has already been established is likely deadly to remove.) But I don't think it will be intentional, no matter who does it. Unless it's the Void, the Void would totally kill her intentionally. But I don't think Strange or Loki would.

And just to clarify what A Silver Quickly is talking about... Donny Cates is also writing Thanos. It is set in the future, a bad future, where Thanos won and wrecked everything, the world and most of it's inhabitants was utterly destroyed. So in the back of the most recent issue, it had a teaser for next issue, and showed a panel of Dr Strange and Sentry, fighting for the fate of the world. And like... what if the series are linked? What if the thing the Vishanti were so worried about was Thanos, and Strange taking the position back from Loki somehow doomed the entire world? what if events in Thanos shows what will happen if Strange gives in to his jealousy and entitlement?

[dr4conianlaw]

I'm not saying he'd take the role forever, I'm just saying that if he was forced to in the moment it would be one way of really solidifying the theme for this specific arc.

I do think it's significantly unlikely Loki himself will be able to cast the spell- I can definitely see him finding out about it and considering it, but him actually going through with it if there's no chance of it not badly hurting Zelma would seem to... not mesh so well. I mean, it's definitely a knock against Strange being wrong about this whole crusade if Loki actually does the one Exact thing Strange was afraid of, even if it's only when pushed far back in a corner- it's much harder to write a story about how the ends don't justify the means if the justifications are 100% correct.

(And I don't think Zelma not appearing in solicits yet is 100% doom and gloom- remember, she was only specifically referred to by name in one solicit, and that was only to telegraph to readers that yes, she would be back from Aaron's run. So yeah, it could mean that they're trying to obscure her fate, or it could very well be that there's no significant reason to worry about her, so there's no reason to specifically mention her while this Vegas madness is going on, so she's fine. It's not like she's exactly a big name they need to have in there to drum up sales. It's impossible to know what it really means until we see what happens next issue, I think.)

[Raye]

yeah, I definitely think he could end up healing Zelma in this arc if she does get hurt, I just don't think it would go much beyond that.

And we have to remember that while Loki may find out the spell is hidden in Zelma, it doesn't necessarily mean he would know it would be harmful to remove it from her. So he could remove it from her, without realizing that it could hurt her. Good (or at least not explicitly bad) intent, bad results, as has happened a lot in this arc. You could definitely argue that upon discovering this, it would be irresponsible to try and remove it before learning more about it, but if you have the Void attacking you, well, maybe you make a hasty decision to try and save yourself and maybe others as well, depending on how destructive the Void ends up being. Of course, this situation would do nothing to convince Strange he was wrong about Loki. But it doesn't necessarily have to be that the person who removes it also has to be the one that casts it, either. I just don't see how Strange, in his present state being possessed by the Void, would be in any position to do it. He's not relying on spells any more, he's got the power of the Void, and that is nearly limitless as it is, he doesn't really NEED that spell. I think another possibility here is that Zelma herself uses the spell.

edited way later to add, because I was talking to a friend about this, and the way I put it to him i think it makes it clearer why I think this: Allowing the Void to possess him was a desperation move on Strange's part. He's played his hand, another desperation move on top of the Void, which using this spell would be, is not necessary for him. If Loki is going to have a chance in this fight, he needs a desperation move of his own to balance the scales, which is why I think it will be him to use the spell. But I don't think that doing so would necessarily come with any bad intent, or realization that he could be harming Zelma, (just like he never realized he was harming Bats with the forcefield) as I explained above.

[Raye]

https://www.newsarama.com/38447-pete...5-preview.html

Spider-Man preview. And good news, Loki goes to Spider-Man rather than the other way around, and the issue is called "the favor" so the favor Loki owes is FINALLY being repaid. I will be fine if the title is the only nod to that we get, but it is nice to see that sorely wasted opportunity finally get used. And good to see Loki proactively helping, that is a good sign. Also, looks like Loki knows his secret identity... I mean, his raven is going right to Peter even tho he is not in costume. So... Also, why do they keep using ravens for Loki's scrying eyes? I think using a bird that way fits him fine, but shouldn't it be a magpie?

[Fanto.mx]

I originally expected, because of the shape of stories, that in the end, Strange would act in desperation and end up ripping Zelma's soul to keep the spell from Loki. Whether that's lethal or not seems like it would be up to the motivation behind the story, but whether Loki then saved her or failed to save her would probably serve the same purpose: showing Strange for the villain and giving Loki a bit more redemption and a reason to face Strange head on without being the bad guy.

But the Void move does that same thing, story-wise. It's a totally desperate move, even more so than the Sentry gambit, and it gets across the same sell-out-his-morals-for-power message. Plus it has the added bonus of not having any sort of plausible deniability as to whether he did it out of protecting Zelma/the world. Nope. He's in this to get the things he feels he's entitled (pun intended) to.

I still suspect that Zelma will die because of the spell, either directly or indirectly, and end up in hell because of it. I think that will come into play in the arc we can see coming down the path with Vegas and Strange. If Zelma's in Vegas...

[Raye]

What i feel a bit irked about with all this is all signs are definitely pointing to Strange taking the title back. Which, as I mentioned before, feels wrong to me. It makes it seem like his actions were right, when I don't think they were. But I am still holding out hope that him taking the title back is only temporary, and then once he finally realizes how horribly he's been acting this arc, he relinquishes it again.

so anyway, Loki was in Spider-Man today, and... I have kind of mixed feelings about it. It felt very much like a bit of a filler story, and Loki's voice was... off. Overly formal and old fashioned. It would have fit him before JIM, not so much any more. But I kind of suspected that might happen, Slott sometimes gets character voices of guest stars kinda wrong. So yes, it was in regards to the favor, but it was Loki who called it in. Spider-Man tries to attack him on sight, but Loki calms him down a bit, and explains he is trying to do better. Spider-Man breaks a vase that was containing nasty world destroying wasps, they go out and fight them, Loki explaining he can reverse their venom if Peter gets him one of their stingers. He does, Loki saves everyone except one guy who was the first to get stung. And this is where it breaks down for me. Spider-Man says he wants Loki to undo the whole incident as his favor, so the dude can be saved. Loki does. And, ok, first of all, time-rewind is a pretty big trick to have and not one Loki has generally been shown to have before, and one which could make the whole void situation a non-issue. Just rewind and not ask Strange to open the door. simple. so... but anyway, then Spider-Man leaves, while saying to Loki he MIGHT tell others he's not a total *******... and then we have Loki talking to himself, and basically, he reveals that he wanted the favor out of the way, so that Spidey would not wish for him to give the title back to Strange, so he orchestrated the situation so he would waste his favor. This didn't sit well with me both in terms of loki's characterization, and it also doesn't make a ton of sense, since you' think Loki would have pulled this stunt BEFORE the face turn (though not in regards to the Sorcerer Supreme title specifically, obviously) rather than now. It also felt a bit like Slott himself getting the favor taken care of so people would stop asking him about it, (even though he's off the book soon, anyway) and so he did it in a way that ultimately had little consequence for either character. It's a bit like, ok, you want to ignore the favor, then just ignore it, fine, it's been years, i get it. But if you bring it back after all this time, at least do something of consequence with it.

And Loki was also in Infinity Countdown: Adam Warlock.... sort of. so Kang is showing Adam the bad future they have to prevent, and this includes showing the aftermath of a massive battle with a pile of bodies. Loki is on the pile. Now, this is bad in that he's dead, obviously, but Loki and Doom, both of whom are doing face turns, are the only traditional villain characters among the group, this is the group of *heroes* that fell fighting what looks to me like Thanos based on the shadow, and which would make sense with the Infinity Gems and all.



so... despite being dead, actually sort of a good sign?

[Riimi]

rofl: "so...despite being dead, actually sort of a good sign?" Words rarely uttered I do agree, for the reasons that you mentioned. Also, because bad futures rarely happen. It's also good to see because it's Duggan writing the comic, although I guess it's possible the artist decided who would be in there, idk. But it could mean he has been/is now paying attention to Loki's character development.

Agree about Spiderman. Pretty much everything. In fact, the most in character part was probably him sending the Raven to the Daily Bugle. While it was probably a case of Slott not realizing Loki is much more modern nowadays, I can also totally see him being like, 'I'll text him...OR I could send him this giant Raven. That sounds much more amusing." Another thing I found off: while Doom would probably honor whatever Peter asked for, I'm not as sure Loki would even agree to a favor that went against his own self-interest. And yup, I was pretty much wondering why Loki didn't just use time reversal pretty much always.

Also also: besides Strange having gone a bit nuts, Loki hasn't expressed that he really doesn't want Strange to have the title back. While it makes sense that he might like it for his image's sake, it was dropped on him as a surprise, so I don't think he'd be too worried about giving the title back to Doctor Strange (if not for the aforementioned + things Strange has done since then).

[Cosmicbeing]

So much potential, cut short...

Untitled-20.jpg

[Raye]

Ah, yeah, kind of a shame King signed a deal with DC when he did, I think this book got cut short because of it.

rofl: "so...despite being dead, actually sort of a good sign?" Words rarely uttered I do agree, for the reasons that you mentioned. Also, because bad futures rarely happen. It's also good to see because it's Duggan writing the comic, although I guess it's possible the artist decided who would be in there, idk. But it could mean he has been/is now paying attention to Loki's character development.

Yeah, hopefully he has at the very least been reading Dr Strange. Even if reading JIM and Agent of Asgard is too much, Dr Strange is a really good summation of where he's at right now, and wouldn't be a lot to read. But this is a good sign, probably. The teaser in Thor with him wearing the gauntlet could possibly be interperted as him being the big bad, but since he is laying on the ground at the big bad's feet here in the bad future, that nicely puts the idea of him being the big bad to rest.

As for who was shown, I think Doop and Deadpool are the main random inclusions, Deadpool cus Duggan, Doop because the Allreds did the art, and they co-created him back during X-Force/X-Statix. I think most others likely are either there because they are A-list and it's just expected they be there, (Cap, Iron Man and the like) the rest likely have a specific part to play. We've got most of the characters that end up with an Infinity gem accounted for, minus Super Skrull and Magus (tho, Adam Warlock is there, albeit as a spectator) The inclusion of decidedly non-cosmic characters like Daredevil, Luke Cage, and Black Widow seem odd and random but then in the checklist in back, Daredevil and Black Widow both get books, along with Darkhawk, another seemingly kinda oddball (but at least cosmic-ish) inclusion in the upper right. So yeah, I think with a few exceptions, most of these characters have a part to play. And the more random and unexpected they seem, with the possible exceptions of Deadpool and Doop, the more likely that becomes.

but I do think there is some oddness there, too, like, there are both Thors, but I am still 90% convinced Jane is gonna die, so...

Agree about Spiderman. Pretty much everything. In fact, the most in character part was probably him sending the Raven to the Daily Bugle. While it was probably a case of Slott not realizing Loki is much more modern nowadays, I can also totally see him being like, 'I'll text him...OR I could send him this giant Raven. That sounds much more amusing." Another thing I found off: while Doom would probably honor whatever Peter asked for, I'm not as sure Loki would even agree to a favor that went against his own self-interest. And yup, I was pretty much wondering why Loki didn't just use time reversal pretty much always.

It's just such a shame. Like i said before, if you don't want to do anything with the favor, just... don't do anything with it. I'd rather have it be ignored than to have something that's been hanging there for literally years just tossed aside. the longer it hangs there, the bigger the payoff ought to be if it is brought back, you know? If this had happened immediately afterward, like, within a year or so, it would have been fine. And yes, there were easier outs from the favor if he didn't want to repay it. I mean, he died, and came back vastly different, he could use that as a technicality, to say it wasn't actually him who promised that favor. Now we have this time-rewind thing added and it's like, if he can do that, he's basically invincible. I suppose one explanation is that it never actually happened, he created an intricate illusion to make Peter think all this had happened. But then why have the dangerous wasp jar out at all, for Zelma to notice at the end... Oh well, just disappointed overall.

Also also: besides Strange having gone a bit nuts, Loki hasn't expressed that he really doesn't want Strange to have the title back. While it makes sense that he might like it for his image's sake, it was dropped on him as a surprise, so I don't think he'd be too worried about giving the title back to Doctor Strange (if not for the aforementioned + things Strange has done since then).

Yeah, while I do think he is taking his new position seriously, and Strange's actions make him want to keep it out of his hands right now, it isn't something he sought out, so I don't think he'd be too desperate to keep it. Granted, with Strange's actions, I think Loki will fight to keep it, just because of how Strange is acting.

Speaking of Dr Strange, forgot to mention before, Walta posted this on his twitter:


https://twitter.com/ghwalta/status/960525981772546048

So yeah, looks like Loki's having a bad day, as one might expect when the incredibly powerful and evil being who had killed him is unleashed before his eyes.

Doesn't seem to be a full preview posted for either Squirrel girl or Strange yet, but probably soonish.

[dr4conianlaw]

Oh, we've got our Doc Strange preview: http://www.multiversitycomics.com/pr...r-strange-385/

I'd warn for some pretty hefty spoilers with this one, it involves the spell heavily. Up to you if you want to save the full surprise for Wednesday or not I suppose.

...Well, I'm excited.

spoilers:

Now that I don't have to rush off to class immediately, some thoughts on the preview. Yep, Loki used the spell, and is now resplendent in rainbow glory, at the price of ripping Zelma's soul in half. I'm still pulling for her to make it through ok though... and I still think there's a chance that could happen. Because I'm not sure Loki powering up Strange again is necessary for the fight against the Void, Loki has literally all the magic right now, I'd think that'd be just about enough. Rather... I'm hoping that Loki's wanting him to use his skills as a Doctor for some emergency soul repair.

end of spoilers