Loki Appreciation 2018

[JKtheMac]

And I am just gonna have to very strongly disagree about the characterization. I think it has been made very clear that recently Loki has been harboring a great deal of self loathing about certain aspects of himself. I am frankly baffled that you can't see it, since it is made so plainly obvious. The writers have gone out of their way to demonstrate this aspect, it is a large part of what makes him more sympathetic in recent years . He tries to hide it from most people, (even before Siege, some of his displayed arrogance is bluster to mask insecurities) but its still there under the facade he presents to the world. It's also made fairly explicit in issues 2 and 3 of Mighty Thor in particular, so Aaron is going along with that characterization.

You are arguing right past me. I am not commenting on self loathing or arrogance or any other such trait. You are so invested in the fact that Loki is a rounded character you are seeing criticism in something I am saying despite the fact I am not criticising. I am only speaking about the actual dialogue that is spoken aloud as the character magically emerges. He says:

"I Heard your call. And I've come, even though I don't know why one such as I could possibly be chosen to..." and goes onto say "There are other Thors that I know more worthy than I ever could be."

I just cant see how that monologue can come out of Loki's mouth. Indeed when quoted like that it seems like it has to be someone that has a history of being Thor, not somebody that once raised the hammer, but someone that called themselves Thor. A particularity humble one at that.

[Rosebunse]

You are arguing right past me. I am not commenting on self loathing or arrogance or any other such trait. You are so invested in the fact that Loki is a rounded character you are seeing criticism in something I am saying despite the fact I am not criticising. I am only speaking about the actual dialogue that is spoken aloud as the character magically emerges. He says:

"I Heard your call. And I've come, even though I don't know why one such as I could possibly be chosen to..." and goes onto say "There are other Thors that I know more worthy than I ever could be."

I just cant see how that monologue can come out of Loki's mouth. Indeed when quoted like that it seems like it has to be someone that has a history of being Thor, not somebody that once raised the hammer, but someone that called themselves Thor. A particularity humble one at that.

Yeah, Loki has been more humble in recent years, but he's still a Loki. He even refers to himself as a Loki in an issue. He's never considered himself a Thor.

[Raye]

You are arguing right past me. I am not commenting on self loathing or arrogance or any other such trait. You are so invested in the fact that Loki is a rounded character you are seeing criticism in something I am saying despite the fact I am not criticising. I am only speaking about the actual dialogue that is spoken aloud as the character magically emerges. He says:

"I Heard your call. And I've come, even though I don't know why one such as I could possibly be chosen to..." and goes onto say "There are other Thors that I know more worthy than I ever could be."

I just cant see how that monologue can come out of Loki's mouth. Indeed when quoted like that it seems like it has to be someone that has a history of being Thor, not somebody that once raised the hammer, but someone that called themselves Thor. A particularity humble one at that.

I never said you were criticizing, I said I disagreed with how we saw the character. The character you describe in your posts, and the one i see on the page of the books, are very different.

And I seriously do not see how it doesn't fit his current characterization. I think it fits perfectly fine, both in content and his recent mopey tone. I was only trying to say that his recent characterization includes traits that fit with that dialogue. I also don't see how, if the dialogue means someone who was once a Thor, your suggestion makes more sense. That omits just about everyone, particularly if we go with characters that have appeared in the story so far, so are forced to omit like Thunderstrike and so on. The only Thors past or present that have appeared are Odinson, Jane and Beta Ray Bill, and we know it's not one of those 3. unless it gets retconned into a character's backstory, but in that case it can be inserted into just about any character's story.

[Rosebunse]

It could be an aged up Ultimate Thor...

Or Volstagg. I still think it might be Volstagg.

I'm just not sure Loki would want the hammer. Part of Ewing's run was that Loki accepted that he had to do things the Loki way, not the Thor way.

[Raye]

But, and I think i mentioned this before, this is explicitly stated to be a different kind of Thor. Picking up the hammer doesn't mean he has to act just like OG Thor, (especially considering this is Ultimate Mjolnir, so may have somewhat different views on worthiness) he's not going to be doing things in the usual Thor way. The usual Thor way has proved to be woefully ineffective against Malekith so far in terms of actually stopping him, so it is time to try something new. And whoever it is, maybe they realize their own usual methods are also going to be ineffective as well, (Volstagg on the council has accomplished jack all, Loki's accomplished nothing as a potential double agent, etc.) so they are just adopting the persona that is NEEDED to get things done. It's not so much a matter of want as a matter of need. As the god of stories, Loki may be able to take a step back where others can't, to see what type of character is needed here.

I don't mean to come across as me being married to the idea of it being Loki, though I know it may seem that way. I just am trying to say I do think he is as good a possibility as anyone else right now, and shouldn't be shot down out of hand. Some of the arguments brought against him in this thread also shoot down every other character people have suggested. (colour scheme is wrong? well guess what that colour scheme doesn't match ANY character in the story so far, except maybe Cul. Has to be someone who was previously Thor? again, excludes every other possibility as well) Some things DO fit. I truly do think the dialogue fits, the scale armor is his style, the black chainmail looks like black hair, the wings on the helmet are Loki style, they brought Thori into the story, (wanna bet he can recognize Loki by scent?) the narrative arc would make sense as a continuation of his story in the book, he has an actual reason to model his disguise after Odin, given their troubled and complicated familial relationship, cheeky teases in the letters pages and solicits, and so on. I know there are some iffy aspects to it being him, things that may not totally fit, but there are iffy aspects to every other suggestion so far as well, no character mentioned is a 100% perfect candidate, barring some future explanations and reveals. At the moment, my favored candidates are him, Volstagg, and after taking another look at some things during this discussion, Heimdall.

*edit - I don't personally follow Dr Who, but a friend of mine mentioned the whole 'War Thor' thing may be a Dr Who reference, for what that's worth.

[Rosebunse]

But, and I think i mentioned this before, this is explicitly stated to be a different kind of Thor. Picking up the hammer doesn't mean he has to act just like OG Thor, (especially considering this is Ultimate Mjolnir, so may have somewhat different views on worthiness) he's not going to be doing things in the usual Thor way. The usual Thor way has proved to be woefully ineffective against Malekith so far in terms of actually stopping him, so it is time to try something new. And whoever it is, maybe they realize their own usual methods are also going to be ineffective as well, (Volstagg on the council has accomplished jack all, Loki's accomplished nothing as a potential double agent, etc.) so they are just adopting the persona that is NEEDED to get things done. It's not so much a matter of want as a matter of need. As the god of stories, Loki may be able to take a step back where others can't, to see what type of character is needed here.

I don't mean to come across as me being married to the idea of it being Loki, though I know it may seem that way. I just am trying to say I do think he is as good a possibility as anyone else right now, and shouldn't be shot down out of hand. Some of the arguments brought against him in this thread also shoot down every other character people have suggested. (colour scheme is wrong? well guess what that colour scheme doesn't match ANY character in the story so far, except maybe Cul. Has to be someone who was previously Thor? again, excludes every other possibility as well) Some things DO fit. I truly do think the dialogue fits, the scale armor is his style, the black chainmail looks like black hair, the wings on the helmet are Loki style, they brought Thori into the story, (wanna bet he can recognize Loki by scent?) the narrative arc would make sense as a continuation of his story in the book, he has an actual reason to model his disguise after Odin, given their troubled and complicated familial relationship, cheeky teases in the letters pages and solicits, and so on. I know there are some iffy aspects to it being him, things that may not totally fit, but there are iffy aspects to every other suggestion so far as well, no character mentioned is a 100% perfect candidate, barring some future explanations and reveals. At the moment, my favored candidates are him, Volstagg, and after taking another look at some things during this discussion, Heimdall.

*edit - I don't personally follow Dr Who, but a friend of mine mentioned the whole 'War Thor' thing may be a Dr Who reference, for what that's worth.

OK, you got me on some of the clothing choices. I just wish we had more Loki news to discuss. Like, seriously, how is he going to use the Queen of Cinders to further his plans?

[Raye]

OK, you got me on some of the clothing choices. I just wish we had more Loki news to discuss. Like, seriously, how is he going to use the Queen of Cinders to further his plans?

Well, I could see him trying to turn her against Malekith, though given how erratic her followers are, I doubt she's the sort that can be reasoned with. Or maybe that was the piece of information he's been waiting to learn before he finally makes his move. Not sure, they certainly didn't give us a ton to go on.

[Rosebunse]

Well, I could see him trying to turn her against Malekith, though given how erratic her followers are, I doubt she's the sort that can be reasoned with. Or maybe that was the piece of information he's been waiting to learn before he finally makes his move. Not sure, they certainly didn't give us a ton to go on.

Aaron loves his long games, but sometimes he over does it. I remember how long it took for Thor's true identity to come out.

The thing is, is she an expected addition to Loki's plan, or a wildcard?

[JKtheMac]

I never said you were criticizing, I said I disagreed with how we saw the character. The character you describe in your posts, and the one i see on the page of the books, are very different.

And I seriously do not see how it doesn't fit his current characterization. I think it fits perfectly fine, both in content and his recent mopey tone. I was only trying to say that his recent characterization includes traits that fit with that dialogue. I also don't see how, if the dialogue means someone who was once a Thor, your suggestion makes more sense. That omits just about everyone, particularly if we go with characters that have appeared in the story so far, so are forced to omit like Thunderstrike and so on. The only Thors past or present that have appeared are Odinson, Jane and Beta Ray Bill, and we know it's not one of those 3. unless it gets retconned into a character's backstory, but in that case it can be inserted into just about any character's story.

It doesn't. I have no better idea right now. My first instinct is a Blake from one reality or another, but that might just be me wishing really hard.

[JKtheMac]

Aaron loves his long games, but sometimes he over does it. I remember how long it took for Thor's true identity to come out.

The thing is, is she an expected addition to Loki's plan, or a wildcard?

He usually has flexible plans. I think he is hanging around to see what his options are.

[Rosebunse]

I just realized something. By the end of Secret Empire, there is a small but reasonable chance that Loki will have a better standing in the superhero community than Steve Rogers...

[Raye]

I just realized something. By the end of Secret Empire, there is a small but reasonable chance that Loki will have a better standing in the superhero community than Steve Rogers...

Depends on how it ends, but yeah.... possibly. I mean, Loki's done some pretty bad things, but he was far from the worst the MU had to offer. And if Loki actually does something nice publicly during Secret Empire... (I kind of doubt he will play a part, but with Thor on the Hydravengers, you never know) But I think by the end, most of the other heroes will realize that Steve was ultimately a victim in this. Most of them have been operating under that assumption the entire time, that it somehow wasn't REALLY him, even before they had any information about the cosmic cube or anything like that. Just, they were unable to do anything about it. But he has done some pretty horrendous things while under Kobik/Hydra's influence, which will kind of taint his reputation, victim or not, i guess. I mean, there are some who have never trusted Bucky for much the same reason, even though he was not in control of his actions when he was doing bad things.

[Rosebunse]

Depends on how it ends, but yeah.... possibly. I mean, Loki's done some pretty bad things, but he was far from the worst the MU had to offer. And if Loki actually does something nice publicly during Secret Empire... (I kind of doubt he will play a part, but with Thor on the Hydravengers, you never know) But I think by the end, most of the other heroes will realize that Steve was ultimately a victim in this. Most of them have been operating under that assumption the entire time, that it somehow wasn't REALLY him, even before they had any information about the cosmic cube or anything like that. Just, they were unable to do anything about it. But he has done some pretty horrendous things while under Kobik/Hydra's influence, which will kind of taint his reputation, victim or not, i guess. I mean, there are some who have never trusted Bucky for much the same reason, even though he was not in control of his actions when he was doing bad things.

I think it's that trust. It doesn't mean that Cap won't be seen as a victim here, but I think for plenty of characters, mostly the younger ones who haven't really known Cap the way the older guard does, that inherent trust he's always had is gone. It will come back eventually, but I doubt it will ever be quite so automatic.

Loki, on the other hand, you know you don't trust him.

[Raye]

This does make me wonder about Asgard in all this, though. The planetary shield must block the Bifrost, otherwise Asgard would be a simple way for the heroes trapped on the other side to get back on Earth. Surely Asgard would have noticed what has been going on, especially with Thor joining the Hydravengers. Cul may not care what happens on Midgard, but i am sure Heimdall would, at least. So if it blocks the Bifrost, then Odinson must have been on Earth when all this happened, and we already saw that Jane was at the big confrontion with Steve, considering he picked up the hammer and all. But we never got an explanation of what happened after that. When he picked it up, she must have reverted to just Jane, and then what? Did Steve keep Mjolnir? If so, why is he not using it? Why did Odinson join the Hydravengers? I mean, I can make a few guesses there, but... I really hope we get a few explanations on all these things. And while I presume the current issues of Thor take place before Secret Empire begins, if Jane and Odinson are both trapped on the Earth side of the shield, for what appears to be months worth of time, what does that mean for the war with Malekith?

[Rosebunse]

This does make me wonder about Asgard in all this, though. The planetary shield must block the Bifrost, otherwise Asgard would be a simple way for the heroes trapped on the other side to get back on Earth. Surely Asgard would have noticed what has been going on, especially with Thor joining the Hydravengers. Cul may not care what happens on Midgard, but i am sure Heimdall would, at least. So if it blocks the Bifrost, then Odinson must have been on Earth when all this happened, and we already saw that Jane was at the big confrontion with Steve, considering he picked up the hammer and all. But we never got an explanation of what happened after that. When he picked it up, she must have reverted to just Jane, and then what? Did Steve keep Mjolnir? If so, why is he not using it? Why did Odinson join the Hydravengers? I mean, I can make a few guesses there, but... I really hope we get a few explanations on all these things. And while I presume the current issues of Thor take place before Secret Empire begins, if Jane and Odinson are both trapped on the Earth side of the shield, for what appears to be months worth of time, what does that mean for the war with Malekith?

That might be why Asgard is sitting this out. We can guess that Loki is trying to keep a lid on things, but if something happens with Malekith or something, then Asgard would have their hands full.

The Odinson might have told them not to interfere even.

But yes, this is a problem with the event.