Loki Appreciation 2018

[Raye]

Like i said, it's not WHAT he's doing, so much (though that is part of it) it's how he's acting. Just... how he talks, you know? He's coming across as out of character for his current characterization, it much more closely resembles his old characterization. At least with Aaron, though it is wearing a bit thin for me at this point, the scenes of him moping at least lets you know he's not thrilled about the things he does, and he's mostly stopped saying nasty things about people unless they really deserve it. We don't get that with his GotG appearances. He just seems ticked off he's not getting what he wants, is dismissive of them, calling them all idiots or similar, etc.

And given the caption in Thor 700 and the lack of mention of it in Cates interviews, I don't think Loki will be pulling any 'story' shenanigans. I think that has probably been swept under the rug for the most part. Likewise, I doubt the incursions will come into play at all aside from possibly mentioning the Strange selling his soul bit. It's just one of those things that happened, and... that's it. It's done. And I think most characters remember the incursions, anyway. It's just the FINAL incursion that got changed. Remember, Namor got his head lopped off for his role in the incursions, so obviously people remembered that. Sunspot owning AIM happened during that story, as well, so his role in things appears unchanged. It's just that it's not mentioned much anymore (aside from Doom, for obvious reasons) because it's pretty much done, they've just moved on.

[Del torro]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DMqF0KoXUAAxY_W.jpg:large

[juan678]

[Raye]

Maybe this is an excuse to begin playing Future Fight. I hear it's good, but only so much time to dump into mobile games.... but definitely burning out on AVAC (or burned out, rather, but i keep going through the motions. really shouldn't tho. but they a re promising a big Asgard event soon, so...) and i haven't played Contest of Champions in months...

Also, the brother stuff looks encouraging so far in the Ragnarok stuff.

[kaimaciel]

YES! I've been waiting since the first Avengers for a jab at that "he's adopted" line. Also, I'm gonna take it as a good sign that Thor is calling Loki "Brother" again, he stopped doing that after the Avengers in 2012.
With all the disappointment I've been getting from comics regarding Loki, I really hope this movie will cheer me up. If they don't turn Loki into a villain during Infinity War, MCU Loki will be my main Loki

BTW, can we discuss Thor Ragnarok in this thread when the movie comes out in the States? Maybe wait two weeks for everyone to see it? I believe there will be a lot of interesting things to talk about Loki regarding the movie and his future in Infinity War.

[Raye]

I don't see why we can't talk movie, I think the comics get more talk here simply because there is a constant stream of developments. The movies are like, they come out, we talk, but... Like, so much you can say until the next one, I guess. I will likely not be seeing it opening day, I don't like the theaters when they are too crowded, spoils the movie for me, so it may be up to a week or so after release until I see it

But... I mean, I have to be frank here. You say 'all the disappointment' you have been getting from the comics, but a few pages ago, you said the only issue you have read since Agent of Asgard ended has been one issue of Mighty Thor. If all you are going on is what we say here and assumptions, I don't think that is a fair assessment, is all. Do we complain and worry? Sure. But I complained and worried during Agent of Asgard, Young Avengers and JIM too. The gripes have a way of floating to the surface and becoming the focus, but they aren't all there is. There are good things happening as well, even if I can get frustrated with aspects of it. I am super excited about the whole Sorcerer Supreme thing, Squirrel Girl ought to be a lot of fun, and while I do complain about the pacing, and was disappointed with parts of issue 700, I am still thinking Aaron is going somewhere cool with Loki, and overall I do enjoy that book. The pace is just slower than I would like, particularly in regards to Loki who I just want to have his story resolved rather than dragged out.

[juan678]

[juan678]

[kaimaciel]

I don't see why we can't talk movie, I think the comics get more talk here simply because there is a constant stream of developments. The movies are like, they come out, we talk, but... Like, so much you can say until the next one, I guess. I will likely not be seeing it opening day, I don't like the theaters when they are too crowded, spoils the movie for me, so it may be up to a week or so after release until I see it

But... I mean, I have to be frank here. You say 'all the disappointment' you have been getting from the comics, but a few pages ago, you said the only issue you have read since Agent of Asgard ended has been one issue of Mighty Thor. If all you are going on is what we say here and assumptions, I don't think that is a fair assessment, is all. Do we complain and worry? Sure. But I complained and worried during Agent of Asgard, Young Avengers and JIM too. The gripes have a way of floating to the surface and becoming the focus, but they aren't all there is. There are good things happening as well, even if I can get frustrated with aspects of it. I am super excited about the whole Sorcerer Supreme thing, Squirrel Girl ought to be a lot of fun, and while I do complain about the pacing, and was disappointed with parts of issue 700, I am still thinking Aaron is going somewhere cool with Loki, and overall I do enjoy that book. The pace is just slower than I would like, particularly in regards to Loki who I just want to have his story resolved rather than dragged out.

I have been reading a few bits and pieces of the comics that show up online, not the entire comic. I don't think that counts as reading the comics, if all I do is read a few panels. However, from what I did see, the joy I had when I was reading JIM, YA and AoA is gone. I used be excited about the next comic, but now I've mostly been either bored or disappointed. I gotta be honest, the Doctor Strange stuff isn't very exciting for me, mostly because we all know Stephen is gonna get his title back and I'm a bit nervous about what will happen to Loki afterwards.

I'm sorry if I sound like a killjoy. I didn't mean it.

[Raye]

I guess I am just saying it sounds like you're not enjoying things because you're not really giving it a chance, or have already decided it will end badly. Sure, none of this is likely to be a permanent status quo, some of it isn't exactly what I envisioned or hoped would happen. But nothing in comics ever is, and we can still enjoy the ride for as long as it lasts as long as we give things a fair shake.

In the case of the Sorcerer Supreme thing, yeah, Strange will probably get the title back... He's so heavily associated with it that it's pretty much inevitable, sooner or later. but, and while I know I worried like last page that the arc sounded like it was coming to a conclusion, once i step back from my initial bout of worry, I still think it will probably last a year or more of Loki with the title. That's just what makes sense from what we have learned of Strange's book, and Legacy. And, I mean, that's nearly the entire run of Agent of Asgard or Young Avengers, pretty much, both of those only lasted about 15 issues, so why can't his time as Sorcerer Supreme be just as entertaining as that? And while Strange seems extremely pissed about Loki having the title, and will no doubt try his level best to harm or even kill him, from the way Cates talks about Loki, not to mention Doctor Strange isn't even Loki's core book, I doubt anything too awful will happen to him once Strange does get the title back. I mean, losing the title doesn't need to be something horrible, Dr Voodoo is still doing fine. Loki may stop appearing in Strange's book for a while until that happens, which would a shame because i think Donny Cates is a really good writer, and he seems to really get Loki from what i have seen in interviews. But it may lead to a new solo for him, too, depending on how long it lasts. Cates could do it himself writing true sister books, or someone else, either way if it leads to a new solo, that could be great, as long as the writer gets him. I also think Donny Cates may be being groomed as Aaron's replacement on Thor, which would be phenomenal.

I mean, I'm not saying I will take absolutely anything they throw at us, I do have some serious reservations about his GotG role, and some other quibbles. If they had him turn heel again I'd probably be about done with following his appearances. But I do firmly believe in giving something a chance rather than make up my mind based on what i assume it may be.

[Riimi]

I was likely too harsh to Duggan earlier, I just don't like how he's handling Loki so far.

After my initial furor following the last TMT issue passed, I realized (as others have said) that Aaron seems to be aiming back towards a redemption of sorts (with the implication that Loki was being villanous again because of the fates--I still dislike it as throwing away the ending of AoA, but in terms of his characterization moving forward, it's more hopeful than not). I will say that I expect for Aaron to then try to find a way to make it stick despite the fates--that may be part of why he's doing what he is, because he feels like it needs to be addressed but didn't like/wasn't sure how to use the role given to Loki at the end of AoA. I still say that was a better ending for a standalone then for a story going forward, since it made Loki too powerful. I'm mostly just tired of waiting than thinking he's going to make Loki a villain (right now, I'd argue he might be at anti-villain, but as I said, I think Aaron's aiming to change that). It's been about a year and a half, lol. I am impatient! (Still not as long as the war of the realms).

I was thinking that Strange might not regain his title at the end of this arc or the following (he's historically hard to write and has trouble carrying a title, although I haven't checked on the latest run's numbers), but then I realized I couldn't really see Loki "settling down" as anything or any one role for a great length of time. He'd probably remain interested in being Sorcerer Supreme for longer than a lot of roles, but I still think he'd eventually get bored with it and want to try something new. Which could be a good way to resolve that conflict between him and Steven in the end-- maybe even leave it as an open question whether or not Loki "lost" because he wanted to. But Cates really does seem to "get" Loki (and likely a fan of JIM, although I could be reaching), so I'm excited for the ride.

I'd probably be really excited overall if we hadn't gone so long wondering what was up with him and waiting for developments, because it looks like he will have a pivotal role to play in the upcoming 'Celestial Host' story.

[Raye]

I was likely too harsh to Duggan earlier, I just don't like how he's handling Loki so far.

After my initial furor following the last TMT issue passed, I realized (as others have said) that Aaron seems to be aiming back towards a redemption of sorts (with the implication that Loki was being villanous again because of the fates--I still dislike it as throwing away the ending of AoA, but in terms of his characterization moving forward, it's more hopeful than not). I will say that I expect for Aaron to then try to find a way to make it stick despite the fates--that may be part of why he's doing what he is, because he feels like it needs to be addressed but didn't like/wasn't sure how to use the role given to Loki at the end of AoA. I still say that was a better ending for a standalone then for a story going forward, since it made Loki too powerful. I'm mostly just tired of waiting than thinking he's going to make Loki a villain (right now, I'd argue he might be at anti-villain, but as I said, I think Aaron's aiming to change that). It's been about a year and a half, lol. I am impatient! (Still not as long as the war of the realms).

I do think how some interpreted it, he could have been too powerful. But it was also vague enough that he didn't HAVE to be. Aaron walked back a lot of the crazyness he had developed in the last couple issues, without negating the ending, and that was fine. In fact, I actually prefer Aaron's take over those final couple issues. I do think Ewing went too far at the end there. But I think they could have let him keep the win over his destiny without making him a reality warper that could solve any problem by snapping his fingers and rewriting the story. It's losing the win that grates me, not the loss of power. And yeah, he does have a light at the end of the tunnel, but it was a long dark tunnel he went through there. again.

I was thinking that Strange might not regain his title at the end of this arc or the following (he's historically hard to write and has trouble carrying a title, although I haven't checked on the latest run's numbers), but then I realized I couldn't really see Loki "settling down" as anything or any one role for a great length of time. He'd probably remain interested in being Sorcerer Supreme for longer than a lot of roles, but I still think he'd eventually get bored with it and want to try something new. Which could be a good way to resolve that conflict between him and Steven in the end-- maybe even leave it as an open question whether or not Loki "lost" because he wanted to. But Cates really does seem to "get" Loki (and likely a fan of JIM, although I could be reaching), so I'm excited for the ride.

Yeah, I wouldn't even want Loki to keep it forever. But there is a lot of wiggle room in between an arc or two and forever. I think there is enough story potential there for a couple years, at least. Time moves slower in the MU, (unless they pull another time skip) so a couple of years for us would be like, a few months in the MU. And the book is called 'Doctor Strange' not 'The Sorcerer Supreme' there is no rule that he has to be the Sorcerer Supreme to keep starring in his own book. There should be more to him than just the job he has. And I think there is something to be said about making a statement that even though he has been associated with that title for most of his time in the MU, that it does not BELONG to him, exclusively. It shouldn't have to revert to him just by default, since it is a title that predates him by thousands of years, he doesn't own it. Even if Loki doesn't keep it forever, I think maybe it could be time to pass it on to Wiccan or someone. Like, for good, and find a new role for Strange.

Cates has flat out said that he was a fan of JIM, he's praised it highly and said he was basing his take on Loki on it. And I'm serious, read God Country, and you will see how much he clearly loves Marvel's Asgard stuff. It is a 6 issue limited series from Image, and is out in trade, so it's a nice quick read. He won't mistreat Loki, I am almost completely sure of it.

I'd probably be really excited overall if we hadn't gone so long wondering what was up with him and waiting for developments, because it looks like he will have a pivotal role to play in the upcoming 'Celestial Host' story.

Yeah, the way it's been drawn out has certainly tempered my enthusiasm for some things. But the hints we have gotten recently for what's coming do seem interesting to me.

[gwangung]

I do think how some interpreted it, he could have been too powerful. But it was also vague enough that he didn't HAVE to be. Aaron walked back a lot of the crazyness he had developed in the last couple issues, without negating the ending, and that was fine. In fact, I actually prefer Aaron's take over those final couple issues. I do think Ewing went too far at the end there. But I think they could have let him keep the win over his destiny without making him a reality warper that could solve any problem by snapping his fingers and rewriting the story. It's losing the win that grates me, not the loss of power. And yeah, he does have a light at the end of the tunnel, but it was a long dark tunnel he went through there. again.



Yeah, I wouldn't even want Loki to keep it forever. But there is a lot of wiggle room in between an arc or two and forever. I think there is enough story potential there for a couple years, at least. Time moves slower in the MU, (unless they pull another time skip) so a couple of years for us would be like, a few months in the MU. And the book is called 'Doctor Strange' not 'The Sorcerer Supreme' there is no rule that he has to be the Sorcerer Supreme to keep starring in his own book. There should be more to him than just the job he has. And I think there is something to be said about making a statement that even though he has been associated with that title for most of his time in the MU, that it does not BELONG to him, exclusively. It shouldn't have to revert to him just by default, since it is a title that predates him by thousands of years, he doesn't own it. Even if Loki doesn't keep it forever, I think maybe it could be time to pass it on to Wiccan or someone. Like, for good, and find a new role for Strange.

Cates has flat out said that he was a fan of JIM, he's praised it highly and said he was basing his take on Loki on it. And I'm serious, read God Country, and you will see how much he clearly loves Marvel's Asgard stuff. It is a 6 issue limited series from Image, and is out in trade, so it's a nice quick read. He won't mistreat Loki, I am almost completely sure of it.



Yeah, the way it's been drawn out has certainly tempered my enthusiasm for some things. But the hints we have gotten recently for what's coming do seem interesting to me.

If Aaron is determined to keep Ewing's ending, but not to OP Loki, I think it's in the form of, "Loki is the god of stories...and stories have power...but stories have power because they enthrall and spark fires in the listeners. When the story of Loki is so engrained in the universe that he is an evil turncoat, he still has to work with that...and change the guts of the story by changing all the fine details. He cannot change the story by big bold action...because that violates the integrity of the story. However, being a triple/quadruple/quintuple agent is a story already ingrained into the universe...so Loki works with that in order to escape his story...which is STILL a very hard thing to do. It was easier at the end of AoA, because there was only ONE other person he could be telling the story to....and the storyteller could more easily change the story with just one listener. With an entire universe, the god of stories is constrained---he has to be, with all the people he's telling the story to...."

[Raye]

Right, he just needed some rules and limits placed on him. (I mean, i know he doesn't like rules, but you know what i mean) And the higher power level he initially displayed could also be handwaved away as the universe literally falling apart around him making things easier in that moment. But my general takeaway there was that he had redefined himself... to himself. He'd decided what he did and didn't want to be, but getting others to accept that was never going to be easy.

[Riimi]

I should clarify that I still am unhappy with how Aaron handled it (I was fine with him not acknowledging it, but completely negating it is something else, imo). I'm also just guessing as to why he did what he did. He could have disliked it thematically, or just wanted to use Loki in a more traditional role as a villain, or do his own take on a redemption story. Or something else I haven't thought of.

Edit: Now that I think about it, hadn't Thor Odinson already separated the Asgardians from their fates? So, Aaron must have wanted to use the Norns *for some reason*.