Loki Appreciation 2018

[kaimaciel]

I watched Thor Ragnarok and OH MY GOD!! It was amazing and bonkers and I loved it! They kept the deep, emotional stuff subtle but there's plenty the audience can get through the performances and a few words. It was such an improvement for both Thor and Loki's characters (something I really wish they won't ruin in Infinity War, but we'll see).

My advice is to go with an open mind. Don't get too focused on the canon from the comics or the hype of some ships people were hoping to happen, just enjoy the movie for what it is. It takes many, many, many liberties with both Thor canon and Norse Mythology, but I still enjoyed it a lot.

Thor and Loki remind me of Lister and Rimmer from Red Dwarf. Maybe I shouldn't have watched a season marathon of Red Dwarf this week, but they really do remind of them.

Oh, my heart

Please, Russo brothers, don't undo this.

[Rosebunse]

I dunno, I think that may have been an unintended side effect, but not the intent of the attack. If it was, you would think Loki would have been involved with the attack, at the very least keeping an eye on it, rather than having a chat with Laufey, since he would be the only one to care about that particular fate. And the breaking of fate isn't likely to last as long as that, anyway. It was only Karnilla that died, the Norns themselves escaped. As soon as their castle can be rebuilt, they can spin fates again. Maybe Loki would take Karnilla's place? The fate Malekith was trying to avert was probably simply losing the War of the Realms. Loki may have given him some prodding, but it is highly doubtful Malekith would want to break Loki's fate, because that is the only thing keeping him at his side right now. (though I guess he probably doesn't realize that) Also, the fate Karnilla tried to warn Thor about had to do with Jane, so... either to not let her die, or to not let her do something. Either way, something much more short term.

As for Doctor Strange, I think the twist may be that Loki only ever wanted it temporarily, to help with the Final Host thing, and as soon as that was done he's planning to just give it back. So Strange going all crazy trying to take it back was always completely unnecessary. As you mentioned before, Loki's not the type who would want to be tied down long term. But if Strange's actions are as bad as they are kinda sounding they might be from the solicits and covers, Loki may be faced with the prospect of having to keep it out of Strange's hands longer than he intended because he's gone off the deep end. So he'd end up having to keep it, but for good reasons. Though I guess he could also just pass it on to Wiccan or someone in that case.

I wonder, if they do a Loki book spinning out of Doctor Strange, would his Legacy numbering include JIM or not? I am thinking the 4 issue miniseries he had wouldn't count since that was an alternate reality. But would we get Loki #18 coming out of Agent of Asgard, or Loki #41? (maybe more? like, would the crossover issues in Mighty Thor and New Mutants count?) I think JIM should count. *edit i just remembered there were TWO miniseries, so the Blood Brothers one wouldn't count because it's an alternate reality but the other one... might?

I would rather it just start at #1, sort of like a new start for him. Especially since JiM's numbering could make it confusing for new fans.

And I think we have to consider that Strange isn't going to be thinking logically here, especially if he plans on making a deal with the Chaos King. We know that Loki isn't entirely bad, we know that he probably only wants this job for a little bit, and we know that he probably wants this job to be in a better place to protect the Earth from whatever threat he's fighting. Strange doesn't know that and I doubt that he'd believe it if Loki told him.

To be honest, I'm not sure that the moment in TMT 700 is so much taking away the win of AOA, so much as just inevitably contradicting one of its major themes. Think about it- AOA was all about Loki feeling pressured by an inevitable dark future, when it actually turned out the future was much more changeable than he assumed- 'won't sit long in any box you make for it' and all that. The point was that the future is always in flux, and change is inevitable and not to necessarily be feared. AOA Loki didn't really change his fate directly in the fateful moment when he exploded into the god of stories, that change was set up far earlier, by the simple difference of having Verity Willis as a friend.

But, as much as I love and prefer that changeable interpretation of fate it's... utterly incompatible with the whole idea of fate ~always being fixed~ right up until the Norns are taken out. And that probably serves some greater purpose in the story Aaron is telling and whatever, but it still causes an unfortunate seemingly unavoidable clash with Ewing's excellent storytelling from before.

...Oh, and here's a little interview from Newsarama while I'm at it, not so much new stuff as just supporting what we've been thinking :P https://www.newsarama.com/37082-donn...interview.html

Thanks for the interview! At least we know that this will really tie in with the rest that's happening with Loki.

[Rosebunse]

I watched Thor Ragnarok and OH MY GOD!! It was amazing and bonkers and I loved it! They kept the deep, emotional stuff subtle but there's plenty the audience can get through the performances and a few words. It was such an improvement for both Thor and Loki's characters (something I really wish they won't ruin in Infinity War, but we'll see).

My advice is to go with an open mind. Don't get too focused on the canon from the comics or the hype of some ships people were hoping to happen, just enjoy the movie for what it is. It takes many, many, many liberties with both Thor canon and Norse Mythology, but I still enjoyed it a lot.

Thor and Loki remind me of Lister and Rimmer from Red Dwarf. Maybe I shouldn't have watched a season marathon of Red Dwarf this week, but they really do remind of them.

Oh, my heart

Please, Russo brothers, don't undo this.

This movie sounds really fun! I can't wait to see it!

Whenever you have these movies, it's best to keep in mind how canon works and just accept the movies as what they are.

[Riimi]

I dunno, I think that may have been an unintended side effect, but not the intent of the attack. If it was, you would think Loki would have been involved with the attack, at the very least keeping an eye on it, rather than having a chat with Laufey, since he would be the only one to care about that particular fate. And the breaking of fate isn't likely to last as long as that, anyway. It was only Karnilla that died, the Norns themselves escaped. As soon as their castle can be rebuilt, they can spin fates again. Maybe Loki would take Karnilla's place? The fate Malekith was trying to avert was probably simply losing the War of the Realms. Loki may have given him some prodding, but it is highly doubtful Malekith would want to break Loki's fate, because that is the only thing keeping him at his side right now. (though I guess he probably doesn't realize that) Also, the fate Karnilla tried to warn Thor about had to do with Jane, so... either to not let her die, or to not let her do something. Either way, something much more short term.

I wasn't clear, I guess I was worried because the future storyline shows Loki going evil again, so I was wondering about that--the more general question spun out of the fact that I've been trying to determine whether or not the King Thor storyline is a set future and how it fits together with the current. We were also shown it, much like in God Butcher, interspersed with the current and future tales. But I've been kind of hoping, even since God Butcher, that it wasn't a 100% future (because it seems so sad). Although I'd still like the girls of Thunder to exist, somehow.

[Raye]

Well, with the MU, 'the future' doesn't really exist. There are so many possible futures that are used all over the place, and not all of them can be true. so I just don't give 'future' stories a lot of weight at this point, to be honest. they will never come to pass. Ever. So even if Loki goes bad at the end of time... enh. won't likely have a real bearing on the present.

I watched Thor Ragnarok and OH MY GOD!! It was amazing and bonkers and I loved it! They kept the deep, emotional stuff subtle but there's plenty the audience can get through the performances and a few words. It was such an improvement for both Thor and Loki's characters (something I really wish they won't ruin in Infinity War, but we'll see).

My advice is to go with an open mind. Don't get too focused on the canon from the comics or the hype of some ships people were hoping to happen, just enjoy the movie for what it is. It takes many, many, many liberties with both Thor canon and Norse Mythology, but I still enjoyed it a lot.

Thor and Loki remind me of Lister and Rimmer from Red Dwarf. Maybe I shouldn't have watched a season marathon of Red Dwarf this week, but they really do remind of them.

Oh, my heart

Please, Russo brothers, don't undo this.

It won't open here until the 3rd, but glad to hear it's good!

I would rather it just start at #1, sort of like a new start for him. Especially since JiM's numbering could make it confusing for new fans.

honestly, I kinda would as well, but Legacy is reverting all books to their original numbering, there's no reason his book would be excepted from that, that's the only reason I was wondering. It wouldn't be any more confusing than any of the other books.

And I think we have to consider that Strange isn't going to be thinking logically here, especially if he plans on making a deal with the Chaos King. We know that Loki isn't entirely bad, we know that he probably only wants this job for a little bit, and we know that he probably wants this job to be in a better place to protect the Earth from whatever threat he's fighting. Strange doesn't know that and I doubt that he'd believe it if Loki told him.

Well, obviously he's not thinking logically. That doesn't mean he should get a free pass on the things he does, though, not when they are as extreme as the solicits are making it sound. Attacking Loki man to man, ok, maybe that gets a pass, but summoning something as powerful as the Chaos King? no, that shouldn't just get brushed aside because Strange was upset about losing his job and Loki's got a bad past. Something like that should have consequences, regardless of his reasons. He doesn't have a reason to trust Loki, but that doesn't excuse taking things to that extreme, when from all we have heard, Loki does nothing wrong after getting the title.

[Riimi]

Well, with the MU, 'the future' doesn't really exist. There are so many possible futures that are used all over the place, and not all of them can be true. so I just don't give 'future' stories a lot of weight at this point, to be honest. they will never come to pass. Ever. So even if Loki goes bad at the end of time... enh. won't likely have a real bearing on the present.



It won't open here until the 3rd, but glad to hear it's good!



honestly, I kinda would as well, but Legacy is reverting all books to their original numbering, there's no reason his book would be excepted from that, that's the only reason I was wondering. It wouldn't be any more confusing than any of the other books.



Well, obviously he's not thinking logically. That doesn't mean he should get a free pass on the things he does, though, not when they are as extreme as the solicits are making it sound. Attacking Loki man to man, ok, maybe that gets a pass, but summoning something as powerful as the Chaos King? no, that shouldn't just get brushed aside because Strange was upset about losing his job and Loki's got a bad past. Something like that should have consequences, regardless of his reasons. He doesn't have a reason to trust Loki, but that doesn't excuse taking things to that extreme, when from all we have heard, Loki does nothing wrong after getting the title.

The point about the future is fair, what's 'set' is always changing--there are always different writers and we never catch up to that point.

I'm seeing Ragnarok opening night (here), I'm excited!

Even if Loki was being nefarious, summoning the Chaos King to deal with him still seems a bit like summoning Galactus to get rid of Godzilla--sure, you technically won't have a Godzilla problem anymore, but you now have bigger problems. Or, you would, but you're currently dead. And I'm not trying to downplay Loki's power here, either. The other guy just has "eats galaxies" listed as one of his powers, as if that's no big deal.

[Raye]

I mean, i know in the context of the story, the future bits in Thor have a meaning. But looking at the bigger picture, it's just really hard for me to give them a lot of weight, even if they might be fun stories. And even if it was designated the one true future of the MU by some editorial decree... it is thousands of years off, and time moves slow in the comics. Only about 15 years, give or take, have passed in the entirety of the MU to date from the time the FF formed. So even if at the end of time he goes bad... what impact will that have on the books going forward? The only way it could have an impact on Loki is if the heel turn happens during or immediately after the whole Final Host thing, somewhere around there, and that would be a very, very odd narrative choice, to be honest. And even then, someone could still come along and undo that.

And in this particular case, since they made a point of breaking fate, it may be that the future here is meant to represent the fate that is now broken, so the whole point is that it won't happen, or will happen differently. Though, I still think that the Norns, along with a fixed fate, will be back at some point, or they would not have escaped.

And yeah, I really have no idea how they will move forward with Strange after this. I guess the cover we saw could be making it look a whole lot worse than it actually is, but right now it looks pretty bad not just for Loki and Strange, but for the MU as a whole. I suppose we could see Strange have to deal with the same distrust he had against Loki. Granted, Loki's was a distrust born of many years of misdeeds, and Strange's would be born of one VERY BIG one (well, he's done some shady **** before, too, but everyone seems to have given him a pass on those) but still.

[calyx]

Thor and Loki remind me of Lister and Rimmer from Red Dwarf.

Hahaha! Imagining Loki as Rimmer is making me laugh all over again. At least he gets to be Ace Rimmer a bit, right?

The movie was a LOT of fun, but had its pathos too, so the characters resonated beyond the quips. Interested to see what happens to everyone after the movie left off.

As for the comics, I've only tended to follow the Asgard-centric releases so I have little idea of what Loki is up to outside of The Mighty Thor at the moment. Is there some handy guide to issues where he's popped up in the last couple of years so I can try to piece all the bits together? I feel a bit lost reading comments here. And I don't know whether my annoyance at what seems like the incredibly sloooooow unfolding of Loki's story (is there a consistent arc?) is entirely warranted.

[Rosebunse]

Hahaha! Imagining Loki as Rimmer is making me laugh all over again. At least he gets to be Ace Rimmer a bit, right?

The movie was a LOT of fun, but had its pathos too, so the characters resonated beyond the quips. Interested to see what happens to everyone after the movie left off.

As for the comics, I've only tended to follow the Asgard-centric releases so I have little idea of what Loki is up to outside of The Mighty Thor at the moment. Is there some handy guide to issues where he's popped up in the last couple of years so I can try to piece all the bits together? I feel a bit lost reading comments here. And I don't know whether my annoyance at what seems like the incredibly sloooooow unfolding of Loki's story (is there a consistent arc?) is entirely warranted.

I'm happy that the movie is so good! I was honestly sort of worried when they said it would be very comedic. That can either go very well or very badly.

We don't have a real guide, but Loki has been seen in All New Guardians of the Galaxy, Squirrel Girl, and now in Dr. Strange as well as Marvel Legacy. Those are the main ones to watch out for. Don't feel bad about feeling that way, because while we're enjoying Loki's story, the fact is, we just wish we knew more about his plan and more about what was going on. It doesn't help that now you have his story divided up between so many writers, with Aaron being the main one. And we all know how much the man loves to draw things out.

I mean, i know in the context of the story, the future bits in Thor have a meaning. But looking at the bigger picture, it's just really hard for me to give them a lot of weight, even if they might be fun stories. And even if it was designated the one true future of the MU by some editorial decree... it is thousands of years off, and time moves slow in the comics. Only about 15 years, give or take, have passed in the entirety of the MU to date from the time the FF formed. So even if at the end of time he goes bad... what impact will that have on the books going forward? The only way it could have an impact on Loki is if the heel turn happens during or immediately after the whole Final Host thing, somewhere around there, and that would be a very, very odd narrative choice, to be honest. And even then, someone could still come along and undo that.

And in this particular case, since they made a point of breaking fate, it may be that the future here is meant to represent the fate that is now broken, so the whole point is that it won't happen, or will happen differently. Though, I still think that the Norns, along with a fixed fate, will be back at some point, or they would not have escaped.

And yeah, I really have no idea how they will move forward with Strange after this. I guess the cover we saw could be making it look a whole lot worse than it actually is, but right now it looks pretty bad not just for Loki and Strange, but for the MU as a whole. I suppose we could see Strange have to deal with the same distrust he had against Loki. Granted, Loki's was a distrust born of many years of misdeeds, and Strange's would be born of one VERY BIG one (well, he's done some shady **** before, too, but everyone seems to have given him a pass on those) but still.

I can certainly see King Loki trying to bring the Necrosword into our main timeline, especially if he destroys his own timeline. The main thing is, we don't know if this King Loki is aware of what happened to the other King Loki in our timeline, if this is the same King Loki or what. Because comics!

Personally, I wonder if Strange might be defeated by Loki with or without Zelma. This means that he'll be in debt to Loki, but it will keep his own reputation slightly cleaner. He'll just have tons of guilt!

[Riimi]

I'm happy that the movie is so good! I was honestly sort of worried when they said it would be very comedic. That can either go very well or very badly.

We don't have a real guide, but Loki has been seen in All New Guardians of the Galaxy, Squirrel Girl, and now in Dr. Strange as well as Marvel Legacy. Those are the main ones to watch out for. Don't feel bad about feeling that way, because while we're enjoying Loki's story, the fact is, we just wish we knew more about his plan and more about what was going on. It doesn't help that now you have his story divided up between so many writers, with Aaron being the main one. And we all know how much the man loves to draw things out.

To clarify (or confuse ) things further:

The largest development is that Loki will, as of this November, become the acting Sorcerer Supreme: (http://comicbook.com/marvel/2017/07/...-supreme/--one of the first interviews/announcements). I'll go over this in depth below, but I wanted to put that announcement first, because it's awesome.

Here's a summary of the various story-arcs/comics that have had or will have him in them. Most of them look to be building up to an Infinity War and/or The Final Host (as teased in Legacy #1). To wit, Loki's after the infinity stones (GoTG and Legacy #1), ostensibly for power to defeat some Celestial threat having to do with the final host (Legacy #1, again). He's indicated that he's after other sources of power (obliquely, in Legacy), which we've speculated is why he wants to be Sorcerer Supreme (Doctor Strange).

Squirrel Girl: Loki will have a part in an arc, which starts in January (https://www.cbr.com/interview-squirr...an-north-loki/). Seems like it's fairly standalone.

GoTG: Loki has had two appearances already and is currently playing antagonist to the Guardians (they're also after the Soul Stone). Led to some back and forth here about whether or not his portrayal was accurate or more "traditionally" villanous.

Legacy #1: Started teasing the "Celestial Host" story line in earnest, although it was hinted at as far back as TMT #7. Loki was after the infinity stones here, and also said he wanted "to save the world".

Doctor Strange: Loki will be taking over as Sorcerer Supreme starting in November (http://comicbook.com/marvel/2017/07/...-supreme/--one of the first interviews/announcements). This is the source of much of our speculation--and it is mostly speculation, because the arc hasn't started yet. A good deal of it comes from the numerous interviews Cates has done (so many interviews O.o), which we then proceed to analyze, down to the word. Some of it also comes from the solicits -- there is the Nov. solicit, two(!) for December, and another for January, already. For brevity, let's just say Cates has stressed that why Loki is Sorcerer Supreme will be more important than how going forward, fueling the speculation (mentioned above) that it ties into the storyline from Legacy. There has been additional speculation about Strange...over-reacting in a "deal with the devil" kind of way, supported by the cover from the January solicit.

Also, it's been a common complaint here that the storyline in TMT is taking forever. Especially in regards to Loki, since we're biased that way, but it's also been 3 years or more since the start of the War of the Realms. But mostly Loki.

Edit: *phew*

[Rosebunse]

Good job, Riimi!

I would like to add that it's the Guardians of the Galaxy stuff that's really throwing us. We had no clue or warning that he's show up and I believe it wasn't only brought to our attention by Raye. It was a huge surprise and has been the major source of much of debates.

[Raye]

It was actually someone else that doesn't usually participate in this thread mentioned it, figuring we'd appreciate the heads up, i guess.

Legacy #1: Started teasing the "Celestial Host" story line in earnest, although it was hinted at as far back as TMT #7. Loki was after the infinity stones here, and also said he wanted "to save the world".

Doctor Strange: Loki will be taking over as Sorcerer Supreme starting in November (http://comicbook.com/marvel/2017/07/...-supreme/--one of the first interviews/announcements). This is the source of much of our speculation--and it is mostly speculation, because the arc hasn't started yet. A good deal of it comes from the numerous interviews Cates has done (so many interviews O.o), which we then proceed to analyze, down to the word. Some of it also comes from the solicits -- there is the Nov. solicit, two(!) for December, and another for January, already. For brevity, let's just say Cates has stressed that why Loki is Sorcerer Supreme will be more important than how going forward, fueling the speculation (mentioned above) that it ties into the storyline from Legacy. There has been additional speculation about Strange...over-reacting in a "deal with the devil" kind of way, supported by the cover from the January solicit.

thought it might be helpful to gather the links to all the interviews so far, since Cates has done so many of them... in vaguely chronological order:

https://previewsworld.com/Article/19...-Strange-Magic
https://news.marvel.com/comics/72929...reme-mischief/
https://www.cbr.com/interview-doctor...i-donny-cates/
https://news.marvel.com/comics/78513...cerer-supreme/
https://marvel.com/files/podcasts/mc...onny_cates.mp3
https://www.newsarama.com/37082-donn...interview.html

I THINK that's all of them...

and a preview https://www.newsarama.com/36990-no-o...ge-381.html#s5

But yeah, it doesn't start for another 3 weeks, but it is sounding like the most interesting thing he's going to be involved in until this 'final host' thing starts.

He's also appeared in Black Bolt , once in flashback and once, coming up, in the present day. not sure yet if that will lead anywhere, though.

Oh, and there was Vote Loki a while back, a miniseries where Loki ran for president, but it didn't really end up having any lasting impact on anything.

The long and short of it is, after a long stretch of being drip fed bits and pieces in Thor, Loki is exploding all over the place in the next few months, like, seriously, he's freaking EVERYWHERE, it's insane. And he seems to be heavily involved with a major upcoming storyline I've been calling the Final Host, something to do with Celestials, and I suspect most of it links to that in some way, except for probably Squirrel Girl. Not sure if the Final Host story will take place as a standalone event, or a in Thor, or if it will be an Avengers storyline. I kinda suspect the latter, it's sounding more and more like Jason Aaron will be writing an Avengers book once the weekly No Surrender story wraps up, and given the teases in Legacy, where all the current holders of the team from a million years ago are being drawn together, it may be that Loki is joining the team, and that he took over the Sorcerer Supreme position towards that end, because he needs to be part of the team that faces (or is, depending on your interpretation) the Final Host.

[calyx]

Thankyou SO much for all those pointers to finding out other bits of Loki's story, I'll chase it up, hopefully it helps others too.

Regarding the movie, woobie-Loki folks aren't going to like it much (lol), but the brotherly dynamic is definitely explored.

[Rosebunse]

It was actually someone else that doesn't usually participate in this thread mentioned it, figuring we'd appreciate the heads up, i guess.



thought it might be helpful to gather the links to all the interviews so far, since Cates has done so many of them... in vaguely chronological order:

https://previewsworld.com/Article/19...-Strange-Magic
https://news.marvel.com/comics/72929...reme-mischief/
https://www.cbr.com/interview-doctor...i-donny-cates/
https://news.marvel.com/comics/78513...cerer-supreme/
https://marvel.com/files/podcasts/mc...onny_cates.mp3
https://www.newsarama.com/37082-donn...interview.html

I THINK that's all of them...

and a preview https://www.newsarama.com/36990-no-o...ge-381.html#s5

But yeah, it doesn't start for another 3 weeks, but it is sounding like the most interesting thing he's going to be involved in until this 'final host' thing starts.

He's also appeared in Black Bolt , once in flashback and once, coming up, in the present day. not sure yet if that will lead anywhere, though.

Oh, and there was Vote Loki a while back, a miniseries where Loki ran for president, but it didn't really end up having any lasting impact on anything.

The long and short of it is, after a long stretch of being drip fed bits and pieces in Thor, Loki is exploding all over the place in the next few months, like, seriously, he's freaking EVERYWHERE, it's insane. And he seems to be heavily involved with a major upcoming storyline I've been calling the Final Host, something to do with Celestials, and I suspect most of it links to that in some way, except for probably Squirrel Girl. Not sure if the Final Host story will take place as a standalone event, or a in Thor, or if it will be an Avengers storyline. I kinda suspect the latter, it's sounding more and more like Jason Aaron will be writing an Avengers book once the weekly No Surrender story wraps up, and given the teases in Legacy, where all the current holders of the team from a million years ago are being drawn together, it may be that Loki is joining the team, and that he took over the Sorcerer Supreme position towards that end, because he needs to be part of the team that faces (or is, depending on your interpretation) the Final Host.

Very good! Who did say it?

It's worth pointing out that this Loki explosion wasn't exactly teased much in the solicits. We knew about the Dr. Strange thing and we knew he'd feature in somewhere in Legacy, but the full size and scope of this wasn't anything we were expecting. Loki isn't on a lot of the covers and the writer for Squirrel Girl implied that he didn't realize that Loki would be Sorcerer Supreme until so far into the process that the artist didn't have time to add Loki to the cover or the solicit.

Really, it just gives the impression that Aaron is playing all of this very close to his chest.

Thankyou SO much for all those pointers to finding out other bits of Loki's story, I'll chase it up, hopefully it helps others too.

Regarding the movie, woobie-Loki folks aren't going to like it much (lol), but the brotherly dynamic is definitely explored.

I think we can get enough of woobie-Loki in the comics, so this sounds delightful!

[Xalfrea]

Loki is done really well in the latest movie, Ragnarok, emphasizing his duplicity, discretion, and dynamic character moments with his bro. He has what is probably one of my new favorite moments of the entire MCU, but I'm not gonna spoil it. Let's just say, this moment has been a long time coming for those who remember what happened in the first Avengers movie.