Loki Appreciation 2018

[Rosebunse]

What did you think of it? I liked it, but as you've seen in the spoilers, the movie wasn't without its problems. But it was interesting knowing what we know about Loki in the comics.

Looking at the preview, the tidiness of Strange's once not-tidy abode seems to be in keeping with what Cates has said about Loki before, that he likes to control magic. Strange will contain it, manipulate it, but he's fine to let it do its thing. Loki isn't like that, he likes to be in control. We've seen this work for him and we've seen it blow up in his face.

But I also think that this is going to influence how others see hin, especially New Yorkers who might appreciate a Sorcerer Supreme who takes care of things right away and who doesn't let things accumulate until they get bad.

[Raye]

I wanted to turn the movie over in my head a bit, and I also wanted to be sure i was at my computer with a real keyboard, 'cause this is probably gonna be on the long side...

first , continuing with the Doctor Strange discussion.

Yeah, Loki is definitely more about controlling magic within the Sanctum, while Strange just kinda lets it do it's own thing.

Basically, if we imagine the house as a garden, Loki's sanctum is all like this:


While Strange is like this:


both beautiful in their own way, but very different philosophies behind them.

And I don't think either way is necessarily better, I think both probably have pros and cons. I do think Loki will be running afoul of some of the cons, though. It may be that both he and Strange may be discovering that someplace in the middle is a better place to be.

One thing though, Strange wasn't neglectful of his duties, if someone needed help, he did so as promptly as he was able. It's Loki who seems to be a bit more lax in that regard. He floats the house to discourage walk-ins, and he's not even home here, I get the feeling the pages of him in the Bar With no Doors immediately follows this preview, so he's just hanging out at the bar, while this dude has haunted eyeballs. I am sure he will probably help this guy when he gets home, but he does seem to be taking the 'helping people' thing less seriously than Strange did, which i mean, is kinda to be expected.

*edit - and having a second look at the preview just now, I am curious about the big door. Who was hacking at it, was that Loki or Strange? Loki seems most likely, since i imagine Strange is no longer welcome, but if the house is his now, why is the door locked? what is Strange hiding in there? is that where he was keeping Mr Misery 2.0? Cates is doing a good job of setting up some little mysteries in these first few pages, should keep the interest up.
I also like that Loki apparently treats Zelma very well, and she seems to like him, too. He got the snakes to treat her with respect, that definitely came across as something specific that he got them to do, and he complimented her library, something that is very important to her. When she started her work with Strange, his 'library' was piles of books on the floor, she made that library from the ground up. I mean, yeah, the books were Strange's, Loki has likely added some of his own to the collection, but she organized it, catalogued everything, put them on shelves, it's hers.

Okay, on to the movie
spoilers:

I did enjoy it a lot, but I did feel Loki was made the buttmonkey a little too much, and sometimes the humor deflated a touching/serious moment too much. I was also disappointed in how quickly the Warriors Three were taken out. But overall, I did enjoy it a lot, and was glad Loki got his face-turn on. On that note, responding in a general way to some of the comments in this thread.... During the elevator scene, and the following scene where they steal the ship and Thor paralyzes Loki, I got the sense that he was pushing Loki's buttons intentionally, to try and make him do the right thing. We saw earlier in the film that Thor is more in tune with his brother than I think a lot of people give him credit for, he figured out who "Odin" was and got him to drop his disguise in about 5 minutes, it showed he knows Loki, and knows what to say to get Loki to do what he wants, now that he's wised up a bit during his time on the Avengers. He's probably the only person that could do that sort of mind game on Loki, and I think what we saw there was quite deliberate on Thor's part. He may not have known exactly HOW Loki would get out of this and come join him, but it was made clear later that he probably intended it, based on his reaction when Loki shows up at Asgard in the ship later. Did Thor show even the tiniest bit of surprise? nope. Just "You're late." Also, I found it interesting that when Thor had Loki on the ground paralyzed, one of the things he said was that Loki had become predictable in his villainy, and he could be more, and that is pretty much the same motivation Loki had in JIM. As for the Tesseract, I do think Loki took it, yeah. It's not as if it was an either-or situation, he could take both the Tesseract AND Surtur's crown. But i don't think he took it with bad intentions. Selfish ones, maybe, but not like, gonna conquer the Earth again sort of thing. I do hope that the clip of him handing it to Thanos is either a trick (it's a fake/illusion/has some other trick up his sleeve/whatever) or he is out in a position where he has no other choice. Because yeah, I don't want to see the relationship between Thor and Loki undone again by having Loki betray everyone. But I do think the face turn was indeed genuine, because I think what they did with Skurge was intended to give Loki's inner growth a more overt outward presence in the film. I mean, Skurge's journey matched Loki's step for step. They started in a similar place, they both faltered by aligning themselves with a bad guy for self preservation/selfishness, and they both made the right choice in the end. The differences being that Loki's was more subtle and internal, and of course, Skurge died, while Loki did not. But that may be foreshadowing of Infinity War, which could of course set up a JIM sort of deal.

end of spoilers

And if no one speaks up today about having not seen it i think it is likely safe to stop using the spoil tags, I know I was the one holding things up for the most part, but figured one more day can't hurt.

[Rosebunse]

I love the garden analogy! You really nailed them there!

Both gardens are beautiful, but what are some cons with each? The well manicured garden is beautiful and well planned for, but to keep it that way, you have to do a ton of work and you have to plan for it really well or else it risks being even more unorganized than the other garden. On top of that, you can't be sure that you've eliminated every problem-bugs, pests, stray cats and rodents-because more are probably hiding in the bushes. The problem with the unorganized garden is that there are sure to be tiny nuisances all around you. It isn't as easy to navigate and it is much easier for it to get out of control.

I meant more about public perception between Loki and Strange. Even if Loki doesn't care as much about the small problems, as long as he deals with the big ones promptly or before they happen, then many people will be fine with him. Plus, as we've seen with Zelma, Loki can be quite charming. That charm doesn't quite work on people who already know him, but there are plenty of new faces in the MU!

Like the well maintained garden you showed above, Loki's magical method requires tons of planning and requires extra work to keep going. His problem is that, yes, he's just not as helpful on the small problems as Strange is. Which is probably where he's going to run into most of his problems. Part of the reason Strange helped people with their small magical problems is simply because you don't know when a small problem is going to turn into a big one. Loki can be quite lazy on top of all of that.

I'm happy you liked the movie! It definitely isn't without its problems, but it's enjoyable and I think works well for a bridge between the different Phases.

spoilers:

Did anyone else notice that they turned Loki's horn helmet into a freaking weapon? I loved that part! I don't think we've actually seen that before, either in the movies or comics. Well, in the comics, his horns are often too long to really be of much use, but still. Loved it! Loki has dealt with Thanos before and he's failed him. I imagine that Loki is going offer up the Tesseract, Thanos will do something to the Asgardians anyways, and then we set up Loki's need to sacrifice himself later. Now, I think we can't undervalue how influential JiM and Loki's redemption streak is for this movie. Loki isn't evil, he freaking sets Odin up in nursing home and tries to be helpful. Would this be the same if we didn't have the comics being where they are now? Because of this, I'm not sure how different a JiM movie would be from the original.

end of spoilers

[Raye]

In terms of the rules of magic Marvel is trying to establish with Doctor Strange since Aaron's run began, coupled with some things Cates has said, I think the biggest 'con' Loki will face is that the 'price' required for such control is likely quite high, and Loki has apparently been neglecting paying his tab, somehow, but at some point he will have to pay up.

and ah, yes, public perception. Though I think big problems that would threaten the world or even just New York kind of come along only occasionally sort of thing, so Loki does need to focus on the small stuff to win over the public, he can't count on like, a demon rampaging through Times Square to come along so he can very publicly stop it. In this case, to be fair, Strange spent a fair bit of time in that bar as well, so I guess we can't really fault Loki for doing something Strange did as well. However, Strange did not levitate his house so that no one could ring the doorbell to even ask for help. So I think Loki is willing to help, but he doesn't want it to be his whole life, so he's making it a bit difficult for people to ask him. I don't think it's that he's lazy in this case, but that he has bigger things to worry about. He's got playing double agent in the War of the Realms, Celestials and Infinity Gems to worry about, he ain't got time for haunted eyeballs. But you make a good point in that something small can become something big if not nipped in the bud early.

ps. anyone else got a hunch that mr eyeballs may be Strange in disguise, trying to see what Loki is up to?

spoilers:

Yes, I loved him using his helmet as a weapon, that was cool. Thing about the Tesseract is, that it is what Thanos wanted him to get in the first place, but if Loki was wanting to just complete the mission he was first set to, I mean, he's had the opportunity to do so for literally years. As far as anyone was concerned, that cube was his (Odin's) and he could do anything he wanted with it. Sure, it would probably spoil his disguise if he used it to like, conquer Midgard or anything, but create a duplicate to display in the vault and give the real one to Thanos? That would have been simple. He also could have given the Aether to Thanos while he was at it, rather than to the Collector. So that he hasn't done so already says to me he doesn't intend to do that right now.

end of spoilers

[Rosebunse]

I do wonder what that price will be? Horrible disfigurement? His plans failing horribly? I just have this feeling that part of Loki's redemption is something really bad happening to him. Well, his redemption with Thor/Odinson. I almost feel like Thor won't forgive him unless something bad happens to him.

Interesting thought about Strange haunting the eyeballs. Maybe there was already haunting the one eyeball and now it's mad that Strange is haunting the other?

Loki does have a lot going on right now, no wonder he wants to relax in a bar for a bit. But how will his various responsibilities start getting in the way of each other? He's stretching himself too thin and I have a feeling this is what's going to get him in trouble. I mean, consider that Strange appears to be going to be trying to use the Chaos King to get rid of Loki. We've been over that the Chaos King probably going to be very challenging for Loki, but there's also the fact that Strange isn't likely to be very high on Loki's "Problem" list. Which means Loki isn't going to be looking for Strange to do anything to him. And Loki certainly isn't aware that the Chaos King could be a problem.

spoilers:

I don't think that Loki is really wanting to team up with Thanos. He's terrified of Thanos, he wanted nothing to do with Thanos or, yes, he would have given him a bunch of those treasures in the years he was King of Asgard. We have to remember the Loki in the movies isn't at all as experienced as the Loki in the comics, so he might not even be aware of the power of half of the artifacts in the MCU.

end of spoilers

[Raye]

the magic price seems different from person to person. so far, we have seen Strange being unable to eat normal food, and he breaks out in unsightly boils, vomits and other such physical symptoms, and of course there was Mr Misery as well. Another guy mentioned sacrificing rabbits, Wanda is prematurely old, but she hides it with an illusion... there may be others i haven't seen. I know we have commented in the past that it was weird how Loki appeared older than Thor when he is in fact younger, so he may be in the same boat as Wanda. (even though i know in reality it was just an art thing, to make him look more villainous) but as an Asgardian/frost giant, I mean, knock 100 years off, you'll barely notice it, so he'd have to go many years before it became visible in his new body, if that's the case. but his new body may pay a different price this time around?

and yeah, i just can't figure out why eyeball ghosts would be so interested in Loki, why they'd want this guy to ask about him, you know? it just seems a bit suspicious. But then again, it may just be a guy with eyeball ghosts.

Yep, I doubt Loki would expect Strange to do anything quite so drastic to get his title (even though it's not really his, it's not like, i dunno, Iron Man or Thor, where the usual title holder are the ones that started it. he is just the latest in a looooong line of Sorcerers Supreme) back.

[Rosebunse]

It's not just that Strange lost it, but that he lost it to Loki, someone who is, well, bad in his experience. If he lost it honorably to Tony Stark or even Dr. Doom, I don't think he'd mind so much. But Loki? Trickster God and villain? Liar and cheat? Especially when Strange has already had such a crappy year? Hell no!

I thought that Loki had originally aged faster from a combination of not eating the apples and, well, getting the shit beat out of him on a regular basis. That would age anyone. I think the price is something a bit more than looks, something that is easy to fix or get around, especially since Loki is a natural shape-shifter. He can look however he wants. No, the price has to be something more than that. Like his luck or his chances for redemption?

[Riimi]

OMG, the snakes are adorable now that they've been "reformed". Loki sure put the fear of himself into them, lol. The floating house is both hilarious as the most "NOPE" thing I can recall seeing, as well as slightly asshole-ish--it does have the optics that he isn't as interested in helping random guy or gal on the street with their magical problem. However, especially in light of his need to be in control, he could be perfectly willing to schedule an appointment, he just normally doesn't have the time/power for unplanned visits.

This kind of segues into how I was wondering if he delays the "price" of his magic, for reasons both practical and vain. Likely, it's not all he does, but postponing it until planned downtime would be in keeping with him needing to control magic, as well as allow him to seemingly have few side effects immediately after. It could also even partially explain his dislike of walk-ins (or that could just be Loki).

I thought that Loki had originally aged faster from a combination of not eating the apples and, well, getting the shit beat out of him on a regular basis. That would age anyone. I think the price is something a bit more than looks, something that is easy to fix or get around, especially since Loki is a natural shape-shifter. He can look however he wants. No, the price has to be something more than that. Like his luck or his chances for redemption?

I doubt it's going to be that meta. Also, if doing good ruined his chances for redemption, we'd kinda be in paradox central. Personally, I'm fine with it being no more than pain/illness, for the simple fact that Loki usually hates paying any price and because of his past selfishness. Being willing to suffer personal inconvenience/pain for the greater good is enough of a departure from his past behavior to be a noticeable step forward. Why he wouldn't want other people knowing that he is paying a price of some sort is an interesting question, given that it would probably help change their minds. My guesses are a typical Loki-ish vanity, wanting to prove himself, and even perhaps a tactical benefit of putting off enemies.

[Rosebunse]

Good point about him having a very good reason for wanting to make it look like he's not paying a price. It's definitely going to throw enemies off and make him look much more powerful than he actually is.

Though this brings up a question: How is Loki keeping from paying the price? Is he using Mr. Misery?

[Raye]

I doubt he even knows Misery exists. I mean, maybe Zelma told him, but even so, I doubt he would use him, that is Strange's thing, personally linked to him. From what Cates has said, the issue is that Loki simply ISN'T paying at all, not that he is paying in a bad way. He figures that he is a god, so that doesn't apply to him. And I know I have argued the same thing in the past about him, as have others in this thread, that his god status should make him exempt. I still kinda think it should. But that is not what is going to happen, from what I can gather. The question is what will happen when he does finally have to pay up. I do think he must have payed in the past, assuming he is wrong about the rules not applying, otherwise too much doesn't work, he has been doing magic for thousands of years, so either the tab is overwhelmingly massive at this point, or he has decided more recently that he shouldn't have to pay.

[kaimaciel]

There's this spoiler-filled interview with Kevin Feige, where he does say some interesting stuff about the ending of Thor Ragnarok and the end credits scene:

spoilers:

The mid-credit scene has a very large ship. There’s been a lot of debate among fans as to whose ship it is. I’m of the opinion it’s either Thanos’ friend or Thanos, that maybe they were attracted to the Tesseract that Loki has stolen. FEIGE: Did Loki steal a Tesseract? I’m just gonna go out on a ledge and say he has. FEIGE: It’s funny you say that because— Or borrowed. Maybe borrowed is a better term. FEIGE: You know that shot where he runs past the Tesseract, He used to run, look at it, and keep going. Nobody registered it. Then we had him run, look at it, cut away, everybody looks at it. It’s just a little artistic editing tricks there. It could be any of the above or none of the above. You won’t have to wait long to find out.

end of spoilers

Interview here: http://collider.com/kevin-feige-inte...-avengers/amp/

Considering what we know about the Infinity War leaked trailer, Feige might just be trying to be mysterious. But who knows...

[Raye]

Well, if it was changed to be ambiguous as late as the editing room, that's actually a good thing. It means it wasn't some essential plot point that HAD to be in there, if there was even a version where he left it behind.

Anyway. Been thinking about Strange, and here's my guess about how things will go, based on solicits, and bits and pieces of interviews and filling in the blanks:

Mr haunted eyeballs guy's ghosts are actually Strange himself spying on Loki. Possibly Strange plus the Chaos King since the guy said they argued? So Loki will come back after he's done at the bar, realize it is Strange in there, and after getting the 'ghosts' out, goes to confront Strange about it at the veterinary school where he is teaching. This is the context for the captions, he is in the middle of a class explaining the situation from his perspective. First issue ends about here, maybe after some initial arguing. They fight next issue, Loki wins, Strange summons the Chaos King at the end of the issue.

Also, Loki and Zelma are probably sleeping together/dating, both becuase of the solicit text saying 'maybe more?' or whatever, but also, just look at her, look how she talks about him. there's something there. so when Loki arrives back at the Sanctum Sanctorum, they will kiss or something which REALLY sets Strange off. He is probably just going to be completely unable to grasp how Zelma could see anything in Loki, and assume Loki has enchanted her or something so in his mind he is "saving" her. Except she doesn't need saving.

We shall see how close i am in a few days. And I am sure I am missing a bunch of stuff.

[Riimi]

Well, if it was changed to be ambiguous as late as the editing room, that's actually a good thing. It means it wasn't some essential plot point that HAD to be in there, if there was even a version where he left it behind.

Anyway. Been thinking about Strange, and here's my guess about how things will go, based on solicits, and bits and pieces of interviews and filling in the blanks:

Mr haunted eyeballs guy's ghosts are actually Strange himself spying on Loki. Possibly Strange plus the Chaos King since the guy said they argued? So Loki will come back after he's done at the bar, realize it is Strange in there, and after getting the 'ghosts' out, goes to confront Strange about it at the veterinary school where he is teaching. This is the context for the captions, he is in the middle of a class explaining the situation from his perspective. First issue ends about here, maybe after some initial arguing. They fight next issue, Loki wins, Strange summons the Chaos King at the end of the issue.

Also, Loki and Zelma are probably sleeping together/dating, both becuase of the solicit text saying 'maybe more?' or whatever, but also, just look at her, look how she talks about him. there's something there. so when Loki arrives back at the Sanctum Sanctorum, they will kiss or something which REALLY sets Strange off. He is probably just going to be completely unable to grasp how Zelma could see anything in Loki, and assume Loki has enchanted her or something so in his mind he is "saving" her. Except she doesn't need saving.

We shall see how close i am in a few days. And I am sure I am missing a bunch of stuff.

Zelma being the person Strange is so worried about makes sense (there's been some mentions of someone close to him being in life-threatening danger); after all, she is hanging around with a supervillain (he doesn't believe the "ex" part). I was wondering who it could be, since with Cates' mention of Loki still being on the redemptive path (which he seems to have leaked too soon, given how ambiguous he was in all the other interviews), I didn't see him purposefully hurting anybody innocent. With the possibly-dating angle, I'm now just thinking of Strange as the most overprotective father, ever. However, just from what we've seen so far, Loki actually is more solicitous towards her (the snakes and his comments about her library) and more concerned about her safety (making the Sanctum safer) than Strange was. Which, because of cognitive bias, will probably only further convince Strange that Loki is up to no good/tricking her for nefarious reasons.

[Raye]

Yeah, i think the person he's close to could pretty much only be Zelma or Wong, and Wong would have to come back from wherever he went for him to work.

So... I did the Sims thing today. I spent waaaaay too long in the character creator making Strange and Zelma.




I did cheat to get enough money to move into the Sanctum Sanctorum, since it is a very expensive house, but that's the only real cheating i will do. I am trying to get Strange as high up in his career and magic skill as possible before I throw Loki into the mix in a few days. While browsing potential life goals and careers, i saw one i hadn't tried before that I thought would be PERFECT for this playthrough... Ghost hunter! not only is it an active career that requires you to actively play the sim wile they do their job, so it's more interesting to play than the usual they get in a car then are just gone for however many hours, which involves removing ghosts from homes, investigating paranormal activity, exorcising spirits from objects etc. It seemed perfect. one problem though, when they banish ghosts, it uses a Ghostbuster style proton pack type deal, and dresses them in an ugly yellow jumpsuit. The jumpsuit can be changed, but the tech based method of banishing the ghosts cannot. But still, that's as close as i am gonna get. the Sanctum itself is of course not as weird as in the comics, that is just not possible, but it does have fun things like a magic mirror, enchanting and alchemy stations and all that, so it does still feel all magical. We shall see if i will need to get rid of the Victorian decorating when Loki moves in.

Looks like my old Loki save game is still there, but I had Loki pretty much maxed out, so there's no place for him to go, really, and he has the wrong career (writer) so I will start a new one.

[Rosebunse]

I loved the Sims 3! And that's a good looking Strange LOL

I think Strange's feeling towards Loki actually sleeping/dating Zelma would be less...good? I guess to me, it's just going to come off as Zelma being another aspect of his life that Loki's taken over to greater effect. Of course, we know there are plenty of reasonable reasons for Zelma to want to sleep/date Loki. He's seemingly closer to her age, he's been drawn to be rather good looking, and he can be quite nice. It also looks like he's trying to make Strange's home more habitable at least partially for her benefit and he's complimenting her library. They're both book geeks and very intelligent people. And as you guys have pointed out, isn't this really sort of a break for Loki? He gets to go to bars, just sort of hang out and relax a bit. His not wanting to see minor cases is as much about how stretched thin he is with everything as anything else.

Of course, Strange doesn't know that, but seeing Loki not taking his job seriously is going to wear on him.

Would Strange have already summoned The Chaos King? It seems too soon, but could The Chaos King have been the one who contacted Strange to summon him?