Loki Appreciation 2018

[Raye]

I'm not saying novels shouldn't have diverse characters or themes, but they should be well written. I have bought books based on reviews praising them for their diversity, only to be disappointed with bad writing and bland characters. It's not enough.

My guess is that it is a matter of preference and how the author portrays the characters. There are certain situations and certain books where the characters gender, sexuality, race, etc is the center of the plot (a romance, a coming out story, etc), while in others is just an aspect of the character that is inconsequential to the story.

I have a chronic illness that I have never seen portrayed in media except for bowel humor (believe me, there's nothing funny about it). I would love to see a character with the same illness, but mostly I want a well-written book, interesting characters, good world building, and a good plot. If a book has diversity and all those elements, it's win in my opinion. Leigh Bardugo and Rainbow Rowell wrote fantasy YA novels with diverse characters that were likable and well written.

In Loki's case, we've had the pansexuality and gender fluidity for years, but I honestly care more about his adventures and his relationship with Thor and his family than romance and his sex life. But that's just me. If MacKenzie Lee follows the same route the other YA writers are using for DC characters, were probably going to see Loki meeting and falling in love with an OC, which... doesn't exactly appeal to me.

But a lot of people love that (considering the thousands of fanfics), so that's fine. If we all read the same thing, there would be no creativity.

As for Dr. Strange, I wonder if Cates doesn't realize that what he's doing with Zelma and bring back Sentry is terrible. From some reactions that I have seen, readers were excited to see Bob again and congratulating Stephen for bringing Loki's killer back, claiming it's only fair because "Loki killed his dog". Oh boy...

PS: This is just my opinion. I hope I haven't offended anyone.

I get what you are saying. him being pan etc is fine, him making that the core of his personality, not so much. I know there are some people who do make their sexuality or whatever like, the core of their identity, it is the primary aspect of their lives and every other aspect of themselves seems to hang off that in some way. I don't get it myself, but I have known people like that, so it wouldn't bother me if there were a character like that, i guess, just.... not Loki. Because that doesn't fit who he is. He is a multifaceted character with many many aspects. Of which, really, his love life is often one of the LEAST important. It's just not something that has ever seemed to be at the forefront of his mind much at all, and i can't see why it would begin to be now, after so many years of his life. That's not to say he shouldn't be involved with anyone, he's never been presented as asexual, just not particularly motivated by that, so i am fine with Zelma here, for instance. But he has never defined himself by who he is attracted to, or what form they happen to be wearing, it's just not something that seemed important to him. He was always much more concerned with his assorted plots and schemes, general chaos and mischief, his family, Asgard, magic... more recently, his role. Those all seemed far more important to him than who he slept with or what skin he was wearing.

And that doesn't just go for things like sexuality, gender identity or stuff like that. like, ok, I am, or was, a big fan of Nightcrawler. He has always been Catholic, and while as an atheist that wasn't something I particularly cared about, but not a problem for me, either, and he had so many other facets that i liked. then... they made him a priest. all of a sudden, his religion overshadowed every other aspect of the character in the hands of most writers. there were exceptions, but more often than not, it was priest this, Catholic that, on and on, ugh, it was awful. All these other aspects of his character just... were forgotten. And it was such a shame. I would not want that to happen to Loki as well where this rich character he's developed into with so many facets is reduced to just a couple.

And I think Cates realizes it's awful. It seemed quite deliberate, and he even had Strange admit to himself in the captions that he was crossing lines, and that he was wrong about Loki. I think what will end up happening is that both Strange and Loki will realize they are more similar than they'd probably like to admit, and see aspects of themselves in the other that are.... not so great, and both will kind of learn from it.

but yes, some of the fan response is a bit frustrating, but also interesting. It really shows that a character's traditional role absolutely can colour a reader's perception of a character's actions a whole lot. Loki did NOTHING WRONG this issue. NOTHING. (ok, searching for the spell MIGHT be bad, but we don't know that for sure) Bats was quite obviously an accident. But I definitely have seen some people react as if it were deliberate. Conversely, Strange crossed several lines, and while yes, I can get where he is coming from, and he is still sympathetic, I think, he still did some shitty things, and he's getting a free pass from most.

Okay, first, from the previous page:

Ooooh, I hadn't thought of Loki wanting to be the god of Magic,but it makes sense. Both for how he's been trying to redefine himself as well as in line with his ambitious personality (he doesn't set his sights low, does he?). In my opinion, this is more evidence of his actions being questionable, since the reason he basically ruined Steven's life (even if it's only temporary, only Loki knows that) was selfish. Now, I do think Steven's way out of line--further than Loki--but I think Cates is using a nifty mirroring technique with them both, where they look different on the surface but a lot of their bad tendencies are the same. I think Steven currently looks very much what Loki could look like/become if he (Loki) keeps pursuing goals believing that the ends justify the means. Such a philosophy definitely requires care.

Selfish, yes, and definitely shady, but i do think he probably has something largely good planned. Or at least what he sees as good. I think he may want to fix magic. But it probably won't work the way he thinks it will.

And it would be ambitious for most characters to become a god of magic. but... i mean, he's already a god... i think this would be a step up from god of lies, but still more a lateral move, it's not as audacious as like, Strange attempting the same thing.

With all that said, some people find comfort in reading about people who have undergone experiences with similar prejudice. Ideally, the degree to which these traits affect characters should just mean the difference between having a character who belongs to a Conservative family and has to come to terms with their sexuality (something that's a valid story but I wouldn't like as much) vs having a gay character who, say, lives in a liberal part of the country and is comfortable with their sexuality, finding a significant other. I also definitely think we need more minority representation and that most excuses against including said minorities don't apply. Despite our typical insistence to base fantasy worlds off of medieval Europe (and likely not that accurate a historical representation), any world that has dragons can also have blended human/non-human populations and more advanced views of gender and sexuality. In fact, one of these is rather more probable than the other, and it's not the dragons.

Yeah, I context matters, and I am absolutely in agreement that there needs to be representation. and, actually, Norse culture had, well, not quite modern takes on sexuality, but certainly more open than what most would assume, so it totally does fit that Loki could be bi and non-binary, I am not saying those shouldn't be aspects of his character. I just don't want it to come at the expense of a good story or have it eclipse other, already existing, aspects of a character.

[Raye]

Squirrel Girl preview! https://www.cbr.com/unbeatable-squirrel-girl-27/
Sadly the jpeg compression is super bad, so you can't make out a lot of the smaller text. Even so, I.... don't think the recap page is supposed to be like that...? also, I like how they have Beast's dialogue just kinda overflow the word balloon. And I like how her assumption that other characters with animal themed names can talk to those animals continues. That's how Laura ended up with a pet wolverine.

The one page with Loki in that preview:


Well, Loki certainly seems to be in a good mood. And ironically, we saw that Strange totally COULD talk to Mew, it is in fact a bit of a specialty of his at the moment! But I don't think he is in any shape to teleport anyone across the galaxy just now, so Loki is still probably her best bet.

And in the Sims... I did it.

brought Strange and Bats to the Sanctum Sanctorum for an argument with Zelma and Loki


http://steamcommunity.com/id/RayeGun...11262923973072

and yes, I did make Loki his shirtless but with the cloak of levitation outfit! And I gave Zelma a secondary outfit as well, since it was a bit different than in the first issue. similar, but not quite the same. Strange has the 'proper' trait, so he tends to change into his formal wear when in charge of his own outfit choices, so while I do have an outfit with a tan trenchcoat for him, he switched out of it near instantly after i switched back to Loki and Zelma (they had potions on hand to destroy their relationship with Strange. Loki by a whole lot, Zelma i brought down down to around the baseline, so had to be controlling them for most of the argument). Loki also switched into one of his work outfits partway through the encounter. but oh well, I tried.

also had them have a wizard's duel, which actually improved their relationship a bit, but they still hate eachother.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/RayeGun...11262923970132
Loki won.
And then... the sad part.... I killed Bats. I used a mod to kill him, and it meant Grim didn't show up to take him for a dramatic grieving scene, but I had Loki cast a haunting curse on Strange right after, and there he was.

http://steamcommunity.com/id/RayeGun...11262923967993
goodbye, Bats

Now i guess i should make Sentry.

[kaimaciel]

http://comicbook.com/marvel/2017/12/...r-loki-thanos/

Well fu$#.

They're really doing it.

[Raye]

! new avatar!

And that kinda sucks. but on the other hand, he may be working with him unwillingly, or doing a double agent thing, a bit like what he's doing in the Thor comic right now. I really doubt they'd just spill that if there wasn't something more to it. so....

[calyx]

Definitely agree that Cates is doing mirroring technique on Strange and Loki, I'm enjoying all the moral complexities. Bats was so adorable *endless sad face*

Pedantic mode: the pre-Christian Norse were really not open about gender and sexuality (Vikings show is romanticised), they just had different concepts and hangups and laws about them. Loki embodied all the "worst" ways to be a man.

Movie Loki allied with Thanos? Well I suppose "we're friends now" Thor and Loki would probably get old fast onscreen, all I hope is that they keep the tension going with wondering where Loki is at, like in the comics really.

[Riimi]

It's only been two issues, but (as I think I said), I've been quite impressed by Cates. He's also managed to show, in Loki's case, some of his vulnerability/desire to be good leaking through, while at the same time having the question remain of what his true end game is. Quite pleased, and if he continues as he's started, I hope he has a hand in writing Loki for a long time. He's also pricked my interest in Strange, whom I never had much of an interest in before.

As far as the movie is concerned, the fact that Loki is siding with Thanos makes me think it's actually more likely that he ends up betraying him/doing something heroic in the end. It would continue the theme established in Ragnarok without his heel-face turn being more sudden -- people don't change that quickly--as well as mirror the comics. Although, it's been ten years real time of ongoing stories in the comics, I'd like to see him on a more solid footing in them(which I have hopes will --finally -- happen). Butit hasn't been as much coverage in the movies. Also, with Loki, there's always the expectation that there's going to be a twist. Again, I think they could move in the comics so his twisty plans are more firmly on the side of good (for certain values of "good", at least), analogous to how he used to solidly be a villain but there was always the question of what he was up to. But the fact they come out so strongly about him siding with Thanos in the movie, when everyone expects some sort of twist, makes me think that's going to be it.

Also, Loki and Thor getting along is ridiculously adorable and thus can never get old. Proof: any of their interactions when getting along, ever.

I read Squirrel Girl this morning. Loki only really appears in the last quarter of this comic.

I'll admit to some mixed feelings, mostly because North continues to go along with the current status quo of having Loki be more morally ambiguous. He's definitely a bit more of a jerk, at least. This isn't a complaint about North (since I tend to think sticking to the primary writer's portrayal shows respect), just me continuing to be tired of that status quo. Kind of ironically, given that so much of Cate's plot revolves around a talking animal, Loki doesn't have access to a spell that does the same thing (this is likely due to how close they were written to each other, time-wise, and neither author likely thinking to ask, 'hey, does your storyline include talking to animals as a key plot point?'.) I was rather surprised Loki didn't just turn into a cat.

Also, he's shown to be terrified of Dormamu, but I found that as more of a joke and the necessity to establish tension before the next comic. Also, Dormamu has screwed Loki over in the past.

Edit: Ooo shiny: https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/12...ity-countdown/. Looks like Loki does get his hands on one of the stones but may have to work together with the others. But the pics indicate that he's on their side instead of against them (pending a twist, but he did say he wanted to save the world, so if he did betray them to get the stones, it would probably at least be more of a well-intentioned extremist--aka antivillain--move).

[PaxHouse]

In addition to the latest News regarding the INFINITY COUNTDOWN; The God of Mischief AND Sorcerer Supreme is seen on the Cover for INFINITY COUNTDOWN #1.

[Raye]

yeah, I was coming here to say I had mixed feelings about Squirrel Girl as well. which is a little disappointing because I tend to enjoy that book a lot normally. I mean, this is kind of par for course for the book, all the characters who guest star tend to be highly exaggerated versions of themselves, and Loki is no exception. But even so, he did seem kinda off from how Cates and even Aaron (where his motivations are far more obscured) are portraying him at the moment. I think, if this makes sense, he feels more like thow Ewing originally portrayed him at the very end of Agent of Asgard? but that was kind of walked back, so... It also sort of gave the impression that he doesn't really know what he's doing, which I don't really like. His competence was never the problem with him being Sorcerer Supreme, it was his questionable morals. You could also see a few fingerprints of when this story was written with Strange in this role, and how Loki was kinda shoehorned in a bit.

as for the movies, I think he will betray Thanos in the end, I have a strong suspicion they may be setting up JIM in the MCU. though I don't know if it will be as premeditated as it was in the comics.

and Norse culture, i understand they were by no means anywhere near modern attitudes, but from what I understand, it was, relative to the rest of Europe at the time, minus Greece and Rome, more tolerant. And the problem wasn't so much with homosexuality itself, it was with the person who assumed a subservient position, so they had a problem with bottoms, and men in particular who acted effeminately, basically. (so, really they would have had some major problems with Loki, so...) Though I am sure it varied over time (the Viking age lasted hundreds of years, so I mean, think about how our attitudes have changed in that amount of time) and region (again, think of how things differ between, say, California and Alabama. Both fall under the 'American' umbrella, but generally their attitudes are different) but still.

Edit: went and found the Infinity Countdown image:
https://www.cbr.com/marvel-infinity-...finity-stones/


Weird that he's in a hybrid MCU costume. I really like his current look, and don't want it to go away, I especially would not like a full helmet. but the second cover, with just the hands, has the fingerless gloves, so maybe the cover artist just never got the memo...

and that's not Strange, that's Magus. Evil Adam Warlock. They seem to be going for a mix of heroes and villains possessing the Gems, though some are gray area. Remains to be seen what role Loki is intended to fill, but Duggan's handling of him so far hasn't filled me with optimism.


Dammit, I hope Duggan isn't using him as the bad guy...

[mr_crisp]

Squirrel Girl preview! https://www.cbr.com/unbeatable-squirrel-girl-27/
Sadly the jpeg compression is super bad, so you can't make out a lot of the smaller text. Even so, I.... don't think the recap page is supposed to be like that...? also, I like how they have Beast's dialogue just kinda overflow the word balloon. And I like how her assumption that other characters with animal themed names can talk to those animals continues. That's how Laura ended up with a pet wolverine.

The one page with Loki in that preview:


Well, Loki certainly seems to be in a good mood. And ironically, we saw that Strange totally COULD talk to Mew, it is in fact a bit of a specialty of his at the moment! But I don't think he is in any shape to teleport anyone across the galaxy just now, so Loki is still probably her best bet.

Keep Loki away from that cat. He did a horse once. He might do a cat.

[Riimi]

I am ambivalent about Duggan. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he hadn't been told everything about Loki since they're still playing up the ambiguous angle (or he'd been informed of that and veered a bit more villainous). Since Duggan has a reputation for respecting continuity and other writers, I'd lay more than even odds on him ending up going in the direction that Aaron and Cates had already established.

[Rosebunse]

I trust Duggan and Aaron. I think many readers are taking them a bit too seriously in their Loki portrayals. Both writers are known for respecting continuity and Aaron has shown that there's more to Loki's plan than just following Malekith's orders. There's a lot more to his plans.

My thing about Loki's new costume is, well...normally when Loki has gotten a costume change in the past few years, it's because the "last" Loki died. So is Story Loki going to die? Is a new Loki going to take his place?

[Raye]

Aaron I trust, even if I have grown frustrated with how long it has taken him to get to the point. He has dropped enough clues along the way that it is pretty clear there is more to Loki's role than it may first appear if you just look at his actions. Duggan hasn't done that, though, his Loki is just a jerk, even when he is alone and talking to himself. I have liked some of his other books, sure, but that is no guarantee he will treat Loki well, and he hasn't done anything with the few appearances so far to put me at ease.

The costume, I am not so sure it is a new costume, I think this cover is just a rush job (the composition is horrible for a start, and Carol's costume is wrong too. not as drastically wrong, but that is her old costume, the new one has much shorter hair, doesn't use the mask/helmet thing, and has a different belt, boots and gloves.) and he wasn't aware of Loki's current look, and that was his mental picture of what Loki should look like. They may do a patch before release to fix, it but I wouldn't count on it. I think what happened, based on Guardians 151 being de-solicited and such, was that Marvel figured people would flock to this arc of Guardians, because Infinity Gems, Adam Warlock returning, etc. but the sales on the book were actually not great, (according to comichron, the most recent month they have available shows it dropping from 23k to 20k. Not terrible for a lower profile book, but... ) nowhere near what Marvel was probably hoping for, for the scale and impact the story would have on the MU. I think they were really expecting it to be one of their higher profile books, and it just never happened. So they pulled 151, and made it an event at the last minute to boost sales, give it a status the events in the book called for. thus, rush job cover as they scrape together the art team at the last minute rather than just continuing with the current Guardians team. (Kuder was supposed to do the Adam Warlock countdown thing, which would have explained the need for a different artist on the main Infinity Countdown book, but then he was replaced with Allred a week ago, so... they are clearly scrambling)

But if it is a new costume, I really don't like it, because it does definitely bring to mind a more villainous image, it looks like his cartoon costume, almost, which seems like an odd choice, and seems like a big step backwards for him

[Rosebunse]

Aaron I trust, even if I have grown frustrated with how long it has taken him to get to the point. He has dropped enough clues along the way that it is pretty clear there is more to Loki's role than it may first appear if you just look at his actions. Duggan hasn't done that, though, his Loki is just a jerk, even when he is alone and talking to himself. I have liked some of his other books, sure, but that is no guarantee he will treat Loki well, and he hasn't done anything with the few appearances so far to put me at ease.

The costume, I am not so sure it is a new costume, I think this cover is just a rush job (the composition is horrible for a start, and Carol's costume is wrong too. not as drastically wrong, but that is her old costume, the new one has much shorter hair, doesn't use the mask/helmet thing, and has a different belt, boots and gloves.) and he wasn't aware of Loki's current look, and that was his mental picture of what Loki should look like. They may do a patch before release to fix, it but I wouldn't count on it. I think what happened, based on Guardians 151 being de-solicited and such, was that Marvel figured people would flock to this arc of Guardians, because Infinity Gems, Adam Warlock returning, etc. but the sales on the book were actually not great, (according to comichron, the most recent month they have available shows it dropping from 23k to 20k. Not terrible for a lower profile book, but... ) nowhere near what Marvel was probably hoping for, for the scale and impact the story would have on the MU. I think they were really expecting it to be one of their higher profile books, and it just never happened. So they pulled 151, and made it an event at the last minute to boost sales, give it a status the events in the book called for. thus, rush job cover as they scrape together the art team at the last minute rather than just continuing with the current Guardians team. (Kuder was supposed to do the Adam Warlock countdown thing, which would have explained the need for a different artist on the main Infinity Countdown book, but then he was replaced with Allred a week ago, so... they are clearly scrambling)

But if it is a new costume, I really don't like it, because it does definitely bring to mind a more villainous image, it looks like his cartoon costume, almost, which seems like an odd choice, and seems like a big step backwards for him

I agree that the cover is clearly a rush job and I'm guessing that Loki's costume is also a rush job since the other cover implies that Loki might be using his current costume. Loki in particular seems to make artists confused, so this isn't a new thing for us to debate for him.

The costume actually looks a bit like Future Loki's outfit when he wields the Necrosword, but it has a ton of details from StoryLoki's costume.

[Raye]

See, when I look at that costume, these are what pops into my head:





And I just can't shake the impression that that is 'cartoon Loki' which makes me take it less seriously. And I mean, those are fine, in the context they are used in, I have the Disney Infinity figure sitting right infront of me on the desk. But they are clearly very MCU inspired, and I like to keep comic Loki and movie Loki being their own separate things.

Since Deodato is the interior artist, I hope the second cover with Loki's hand showing his black fingerless gloves, though oddly with the addition of a ring, and the cuff of a coat (i guess he finally fixed that thing?) i am hoping he's still in something like what he's got now.

And this may it may be the first time i would be sad to see Strange's yellow gloves not there, because though they don't match his current costume, it may point to him no longer being Sorcerer Supreme. It's weird, yellow gloves were a staple part of his costume for YEARS, but now they seem out of place on him.

[dr4conianlaw]

Honestly? It's not a terrible costume, but it does seem a bit more obviously villain-ish, and it feels weird that they'd go with a so obviously MCU synergistic costume... when the MCU in fact, has moved on to a look in Ragnarok that's much more like his current comics look. It'ld be a weird step backwards? So I'd like to believe for now that it's just rushed cover weirdness.

Anyways, I personally really loved Squirrel Girl! He feels in character to me, although maybe a bit more frazzled than he is in Doctor Strange right now, but that's an acceptable amount of drift from one author to another. If it helps, I'm thinking that the issue probably took place before current Doctor Strange events, when Loki was just moving into the role: The Sanctum isn't floating yet, and Loki doesn't bring up that talking animal problems could probably just be brought to Stephen. (Yeah, I'm aware that from a Doylist perspective the actual reason would be North not knowing about those specific aspects of Cates's run, but I think my Watsonian version works just as well :P) And as much fun as Loki getting up to his long term schemes is, I also love when he gets blindsided by sudden disastrous side effects and suddenly has to deal with them: like, say, him still being in the middle of establishing himself as Sorcerer Supreme and not having yet have the chance to deal with any of Strange's enemies who might see his absence as an opportunity.

...Plus it brings up the lovely mental image of Stephen sneaking out the 'catty chatty' spell as he got booted out the door :P

...Oh, and a Squirrel Girl interview! https://news.marvel.com/comics/82100...rl-leave-loki/ Not much beyond what could be seen from the issue itself, but at least there's the promise of more Shapeshifting Shenanigans.