Loki Appreciation 2018

[KurtW95]

King Loki is AU Ikol and the current Loki is 616 Ikol. And echo of the old Loki. A copy with the memories of the old Loki. So, basically a clone. I think Marvel Wiki puts it nicely.

[Raye]

I know what he is. But a copy of his mind is far more important than his body, because it is mostly experiences and memories that make someone who they are, and those are intact. He has been telling stories from a thousand years ago, so his memories seem to all be there, and as far as I'm concerned he is functionally the same character. And, as mentioned, he was reduced to bloody chunks, he also had himself written out of the books of the dead. So he can't be brought back bodily, and he can't go to the afterlife when he dies, he can only be reincarnated, that is how Kid Loki happened in the first place. This copy of his mind is as close as it is going to get to the old Loki. If he dies, he may come back as something similar, he may be a full on villain again, or he might be Kid Loki 2.0, it is a crapshoot, as he explained in Young Avengers. But without those memories that were in Ikol, he would be even more of a 'copy' than he is now. Those memories are all that remains of the old Loki.

[KurtW95]

Lots of clones have the memories of who they are a copy of though. Ben Reilly isn’t Peter Parker. Honestly, I wouldn’t be opposed to three Loki’s existing; the original, Kid Loki, and the millenial one you like.

[Raye]

I still say he is as close as we can get, there is nothing left of the old Loki besides Ikol. He is gone. there isn't anything to bring back. This isn't like most clone situations where you still have the original running around and they have to distinguish themselves from one another somehow. Those clones did start out as functionally the same person, I would argue, they just diverged paths from the moment they were cloned and became different because they had differing experiences from that point forward. It is just that they couldn't have two people with the same name and same face running around, so the newer copy has to get new name/identity. If the original had died before the clone was created or very shortly after, then yeah, they would be essentially the same character.

And ugh, way too confusing to have 3 of them running around. And, as mentioned, I would not like going against Kieron Gillen's wishes of allowing Kid Loki to stay dead. I loved him, but I want him to stay dead.

[kaimaciel]

With Kid Loki's experiences and feelings to the mix, Ikol is even less of a copy of old Loki. He can't bring himself to do the same atrocities the original Loki did. He doesn't have the heart to do it anymore. Honestly, I think he has more of Kid than we realize.

But, yeah, if Loki does turn out to be turning full villain again, in my head, Ikol died on that fiery chair.

[Raye]

Yeah, I do think Kid Loki rubbed off on him some, but I still think this is as close to a continuation of the old character as we can get, barring time travel, (which... Just no. At least not long term. It makes no sense with the time displaced X-men, how they can be from the past but the current ones are also still somehow able to exist. No need to repeat that. Though, come to think of it, they do illustrate my earlier point about diverging paths. They are the same people, but have ended up in different places because of their differing experiences, it isn't so different from clones taking different paths. The only real difference is the method by which you end up with 2 of the same person) without some major ass pulls that contradict everything we know about how he died. Ikol is all that remained of him after he died, body and soul are toast.

[rpmaluki]

I see Loki as a continuation of the old Loki but with imprints of Kid Loki, the good parts. Because he looks young, it throws some people off and makes him feel like a different Loki altogether. He's making different choices than the ones he did when he was a full blown villain. He's that same villain Loki who wanted to change his fate and we just seeing the extent of his plan and its consequences, like how it has diverged from his original intention due to external as well as internal forces. He could wake up tomorrow and say "eff it, let's blow some ish up" and it wouldn't be shocking, not that I want it to happen. I happen to like this 3D Loki a little better than mustache twirling Loki.

[Raye]

That is more or less my take as well. I doubt when he concocted this plan of killing himself so he could be reborn that he anticipated he would end up where he has. When he came up with that plan, he was thinking as a villain still, and was right up until he took over Kid Loki's body. His original intent was not to actually change, just to use Kid Loki to create the impression that he had, so that his schemes would not be so predictable. I don't think he was anticipating the wave of guilt that followed, that guilt is most of what was different, and it prompted actual change.

[Fanto.mx]

This is the real Loki. And if dying and being reborn or recreated makes you a clone and being a clone is bad, I got news for you: every Marvel character except four are clones and DC doesn't even have four.

And you must have missed the entire point of the story (I suspect you haven't read most of it) if you're asking for old, flat, evil-for-no-reason Loki back. Or they've got you so hard that you hate anything that even whiffs of your own generation.

So here's a secret about what's great about stories: you can turn off Fox News, put on your MAGA hat, and head down to your LCBS and find all those old stories and read them again. Because guess what: if you want to read the same old thing, you can literally do that. Those stories still exist in back issues and trades.

[Raye]

So.... about that new interview, since things got kind of off track a bit...

https://www.cbr.com/doctor-strange-l...interview/amp/

Didn't get to it yesterday when I posted it, but the things that worry or annoy me a bit are, again, the interviewer blaming Loki for Bats' death, like, what the hell is it with these people? I mean technically yes, he was indirectly the cause, but it was so obviously an accident and really the cause was just more.... Bats was old. So I just don't get the level of anger being directed at him over this. I guess sometimes people want someone to blame when something bad happens, but sometimes shit just happens.

and I have largely agreed with Cates on Loki, but he said some things here that I wasn't so keen on. In that he said that Loki trying to 'be better' could mean either being a better person, or being a better villain, or whatever. but I think Agent of Asgard and Young Avengers made it pretty clear that 'better person' was his goal. 'better villain' may have been his initial goal, but that obviously changed from Young Avengers onward. Hopefully he was just trying to keep people on their toes.

And did no one else but me read the most recent issue of Dr Strange?

[dr4conianlaw]

Haha, read it, just have been thinking about what to actually discuss besides what was already said about the preview.

One thing, I guess, is that we now know pretty well why Loki would probably be tempted to use the Singhsoon spell in the upcoming fight. Strange's current power boost would be pretty easy to cheese if he could just use the spell and yoink all that power away.

I think that interview is just trying to scare us though, at least regarding the near future. I think the way the story is set up currently he'll most likely almost be tempted by the spell, but then turn around and go for some other much riskier plan instead, if only because the Vishanti would look pretty silly if they gave him the job because he's been avoiding being a jerk, only for him to immediately ruin that with the massive jerk-ish action of actual literal murder :P.

Edit: Eyyyy, new interview. https://news.marvel.com/comics/82325...trange-rivals/ This one is more reassuring then the last I think, and it points out a lot of how Strange is clearly more in the wrong here then he realizes. It's funny to think, that in a comic featuring both Doctor Strange and Loki, that the one who lead an assault on Asgard as a distraction to steal something valuable... was actually Strange.

[Raye]

Another one? Wow. I liked this part "Stephen doesn’t even get that he’s being as duplicitous as Loki." in regards to how he bound the spell to Zelma, because it means we are right about Strange in this, that he is the bad guy in this story. A well intentioned one, but still. Zelma isn't in danger because of Loki, she is in danger because of Strange binding that spell to her without her consent, a move he knew could be dangerous or even deadly to her if the wrong person found out, hell, it sounds as though even him removing it carries some serious risk, and keeping it a secret. He is treating her as little more than a pawn. He is likewise using Sentry as a pawn. Some fans I see on other threads or like Twitter don't seem to see that he is doing some really shady things, binding the spell to Zelma (and presumably Wong before her) being among the worst, right up there with Sentry. And it kind of confuses me that some people aren't seeing it. Of course, Loki has the same problem, as the interview points out, of not letting anyone else in on his plans, even if they are involved. And he is certainly no stranger to using people. He is hardly a saint, even if his intentions are good, his old methods are still there. But at least he is moving in the right direction, Strange is moving in the wrong one at the moment. I think in the end, Loki and Strange will end up seeing their own flaws reflected back at them in the other, and they both learn to be a bit more open with those they care about. And in Strange's case, realize he over reacted in a major way. At least I hope that is how it goes. However, that kind of realization can't really come without some catalyst, something to shock them into realization. I just hope Zelma comes out of this ok, she's a cool character and she and Loki seem cute together. Even though there was some doubt planted about if there is genuine attraction or if he is just drawn to the spell. But it has been SO LONG since he has been with anyone, I kinda want it to be real, and for her to come out of this ok. Let him find (and her) something good in all this, even if he does have to give the title back to Strange. But is feeling like a tragedy so far, so....

And yeeeeeah... That spell would shut down a supercharged Strange pretty quick, wouldn't it?

[Del torro]

I don't really pay more attention to marvel books apart from Thor and Xmen. So recently following doctor strange and uncanny avengers, I'm surprised at the difference in power between Asgardian sorcerers and mortal mages.

Also, I'm really disappointed in strange for bringing Sentry to attack Asgard, that's disrespectful and outright villainous, especially since the last time asgard was destroyed it was sentry that destroyed their buildings and killed their people, my respect for him as a character as gone down. Also disappointed in the weak portrayal of Cul in both this and the mighty Thor.
What happened to the all powerful Cul Borson, who Odin was scared of and could take on teams of avengers while beating Thor like a child, shouldn't he have magic strong enough to take on Strange and Sentry?.

Glad a lot was revealed in this issue, but wish we got more of Loki.

Also, not sure how I feel about loki and zelda. I want verity back.

[Raye]

Yeah, all the mortal sorcerers got a big nerf during Aaron's run, when the Empirikul destroyed much of the magic in the world, though it has been handled inconsistently in other books. I have a hunch that Loki is actually trying to fix that with this spell. Doubt it will work the way he thinks, but I think that is at least part of the plan here.

And yeah, both in this and in this week's Thor, Cul wasn't much of a threat. Though in this case, to be fair, Strange magic'd himself away before giving him the chance to do much of anything, and then he was presumably busy with Sentry.

But, speaking of Thor, I guess we have our answer of where this fits in the timeline, this issue of Dr Strange must have happened before this week's issue of Thor. If Strange had just waited a few days things may have gone differently. Though I have my doubts that either Odin or Freyja would be quite as willing to help as Strange thought, despite the whole stabbing his mother with a poisoned dagger incident.

And I miss Verity too, but it is not like they cancel each other out, he can have a relationship with both, Verity as BFF, Zelma as girlfriend. But I suspect after she has been gone so long, the intent is that Verity died, and he never brought her back like was implied. I wish we would get a definitive answer there, though.

[kaimaciel]

I hardly ship Loki with anyone, but I shipped Loki and Verity. I thought they were a perfect match and they were so cute.