Loki Appreciation 2018

[Rosebunse]

Great points there, Raye. When you put it like that, Aaron is definitely playing with Loki maniplating everyone for the greater good.

And good point about Black Panther, who definitely sees the danger in getting into the middle of a family feud between Odin, Loki, and Thor.

I don't think Aaron's Odin is really that far from Ewing's, at least where Loki is involved. Odin was the only Asgardian willing to give Loki another chance after it was revealed about kidLoki, though it helps that Odin didn't really have a relationship with kidLoki like Thor and Freya did. And then Loki repays him by stabbing Freya and betraying them to Malekith. Plus, Odin is also mad that his kingdom is ruined and his people humilating by the Mangog.

Plus, in years past, I feel like Odin may have actually tried to kill Loki himself. Here he's practically begging Black Panther to do it because he simply can't. The House of Odin has often been a disfunctional mess, but I think Aaron is showing that underneath that disfunction, you find a group of people who, despite their problems, do love each other.

I'm just not sure it's ever been really healthy. It's been pointed out before that Thor's relationship with Loki has never been healthy. He allowed Loki to get away with a lot and only gave him the occasional punishment. He only attacked and almost murdered TeenLoki because he murdered kidLoki, but even then couldn't finish the job because TeenLoki was still essentially wearing kidLoki's corpse. Thor was obsessed with a fantasy version of Loki that never really existed.

And congrats, Raye, you just gave us the next ten years of Thor movies!

[Raye]

I don't think Black Panther will refrain from killing Loki out of fear of getting involved in family drama, that's not what I got from what he said. I think he's just very principled, and though he will kill if the situation calls for it, it's not something he does lightly, he'll only kill with good cause, and only if he personally thinks if it's justified. He won't kill because someone asked him to, regardless of who is asking, or who is the target. Odin could have asked him to kill anyone besides Loki and I think his answer would have been the same. If he decides Loki's death won't serve justice or save lives, he won't kill him. If he decides it will do those things, he will. Simple as that.

I don't know how you can say there isn't much difference between Aaron and Ewing's Loki. I really don't. There is a MASSIVE difference, it's like night and day. It was Ewing's Odin that gave him a second chance, it was Ewing's Odin that encouraged him and gave him advice and told him everything would be OK, and to stay strong, even AFTER the whole Kid Loki thing had come out and he was banished from Asgard. This is the first time Aaron's Odin has interacted with Loki on panel, and he told him his very existence pained him and he wished he was dead. This was before Loki had said or done much of anything. I mean.... how can you reconcile that? And when we get beyond Loki specifically, just in general, Ewing's Odin was wise, fatherly, stern but fair. (okl, fair-ish, the Sigurd and Lorelei thing was pretty extreme) Aaron's is petty, angry, stubborn, and vindictive. As for him saying these things due to him being mad about Freyja, first of all, we don't know that's the reason, he never said a thing about her here. And as I said in my last post, he was about to EXECUTE HER himself. I don't think he was happy about it, but he was still going to do it. If she had not been stabbed right then, he may have come back from his fight with Jane and actually done it. So if he is mad about Loki stabbing her, something which (unless Freyja kept it a secret for some reason) is now known was something Loki did to save her life from Malekith and maybe even her own husband rather than actually trying to kill her, he's a huge hypocrite. It would mean he's angry at Loki for something when he was about to do something worse himself. And if he is angry about Mangog, there is no reason to take it out on Loki. Now, while I know most people prefer Ewing's take, and I do as well, technically Aaron is supposed to be steering the ship here, Loki had the spinoff book, it should have followed the lead of Thor, not the other way around. Though, it's a complicated situation since Odin was brought back in that Thor and Loki Original Sin mini, which was co-written by both Ewing and Aaron, and Odin was very much on the more kindly side of things there. But I definitely got the sense that Aaron just contributed to the plot, and Ewing did all the scripting and characterization. But I mean, Aaron is still the guy steering the ship here in general, so it's his call to make, technically, so I am not faulting him for not following Ewing's lead, really. But they are still very different takes on the same character, sometimes appearing in the books simultaneously when Agent of Asgard was still around, and it's jarring.

And, the fault here does lie with Loki being an asshole for all those years, not with Thor for forgiving him and 'allowing' it. Loki was in control of his own actions, he was the one doing bad things, not Thor, and it wasn't Thor's responsibility to keep him in check. Imagine you have a brother who did something horrible, like murder someone, are you somehow to blame for that? I also don't think the fact that it was Kid Loki's body, technically, that stayed Thor's hand. If that was the case, then there really is no hope for them, if he values flesh over the person inside it. I think, like Odin here and why he hasn't killed Loki in all this time despite saying he wants him dead, hate and love don't necessarily cancel each other out. You remember what Hiddleston said in some interviews about Ragnarok, about how the opposite of love wasn't hate, it was indifference? He's right about that. Though Thor hated Loki for what he did, he also loved him because he was family, and they did have some good times in the past. The hate led to angry words and one hell of a beating, but the love stayed his hand from killing him. So yes, it does show that deep down the family loves one another, I just don't think it was in quite the way you said.

*edit - oh, and Loki did not betray them to Malekith. It appeared he joined Malekith's side, but again, unless Freyja is keeping secrets, they have to know by now that Freyja herself told him to go join Malekith as a spy. I can't think of anything Loki has done while spying on Malekith that actually led to an attack on Asgard. At most we can fault him for assisting Dario with the dragon blood Hulk guys, (which haven't actually caused much damage yet, aside from to Dario's own base) and not using his inside status to take Malekith down from the inside already. He has been following Malekith's lead, everything that's happened is on Malekith's head. Loki did attack Jane, but Odin hated Jane, that should have made him happy, even if Loki actually intended to go through with killing her, which I don't think he would have.

[Rosebunse]

The Asgardian Royal Family has always had something of a simple rule: it's one thing with they hurt and maim and kill each other, it's another if someone else does it. That's why Odin can execute Frigga. No one is saying this is a healthy dynamic and I think one can argue that Loki and even Thor are living proof of that. But it's a dynamic that the family has had for decades at this point. And I know you're going to bring up Odin basically begging Black Panther to kill Loki, but even then, Odin holds a high level of respect to Black Panther and his request is tantamount to him murdering Loki. Plus, given Odin's level of respect for his old team, one could argue that Odin is still trying to keep this "in the family."

I agree that Ewing and Aaron approached Odin in two different directions, but I don't think Aaron's approach in regards to Loki is that bad. Yes, he basically did call for Loki's head earlier, but there wasn't a ton of thought being put into that, not like here. And the mere thought of actually killing Loki seems to exhaust and even unnerve him. Even after Loki stabbed his mother in the back, Odin wasn't exactly doing his all to bring him to justice. He's only going after Loki now because the guy has a fucking pet Celestial, the very same Celestial who now wants Odin dead.

As for Loki and Malekith, we know Loki is working against him, Loki and even Malekith know the betrayal is coming, but Odin doesn't know that and even Frigga seems to really think that Loki betrayed her for real. All of this would only make Odin want to deal with Loki sooner since, you know, pet Celestial.

I do wonder, how does this relationship between Loki and the Mad Celestial work? Is he magically controlling it? Is it still sick? It seems odd that the Mad Celestial is trying to kill more than Odin in what little we see of him. He doesn't even kill Odin, which while it goes with your idea that Loki doesn't want to kill Odin, also goes with the fact that Loki either has a great amount of control over the thing, or he's convinced it of his plan of not murdering Odin for whatever reason. Of course, this goes back to how Loki could either control it or talk it into trusting him, each option being especially interesting given that Celestials don't have the highest opinion of beings like Loki.

One thing that I think is going to come out of this storyline is that the current Avengers will have to make a choice like the old Avengers did in either helping or killing their great enemy, but I do question if that enemy will be the Mad Celestial or Loki himself. We know that the magic he's been using has a price that he is going to be unable to pay. He's currently been using the Celestial to counteract that, but how long is that going to hold? It doesn't help that Aaron is setting up some parallels between Loki and the Mad Celestials. As I said, Odin's punishment for Loki- chaining him to a rock by his son's entrails while his son drips poison in his eyes-doesn't sound that far off from Odin wanting to chain the Celestial's corpse to the moon. Loki is also a "mistake" from Odin's past that keeps coming back to haunt him. In the Celestial's case, it was a lack of mercy, though in Odin's mind, with Loki it has been a continued abundance of mercy.

[kaimaciel]

God, I hate the comics right now... I keep thinking there's no way this is gonna get any worse, and they keep going.

[Rosebunse]

God, I hate the comics right now... I keep thinking there's no way this is gonna get any worse, and they keep going.

As Raye points out, this issue actually sort of confirms that Loki is trying to warn people about what's going to happen.

[kaimaciel]

I know, but I've waited since 2015 for things to get a little better. I do not like the direction they are taking Loki, I didn't like the whole God of Stories change either, but this isn't the story I want to read anymore. It's been going on for too long and I'm really disappointed.

Sorry for the rant.

[Rosebunse]

I know, but I've waited since 2015 for things to get a little better. I do not like the direction they are taking Loki, I didn't like the whole God of Stories change either, but this isn't the story I want to read anymore. It's been going on for too long and I'm really disappointed.

Sorry for the rant.

No, there's nothing wrong about a good rant. That's partially what this thread is for

And I think we are all getting a little worn out by how long this is taking. It doesn't help that comics are a longterm medium that allow for stories to take a long time and which, in the case of Marvel, don't have to ever really. E resolved.

And as Gillen pointed out at the end of JiM, it's within the right of other writers to come along and play wit what's been done before.

[Raye]

The Asgardian Royal Family has always had something of a simple rule: it's one thing with they hurt and maim and kill each other, it's another if someone else does it. That's why Odin can execute Frigga. No one is saying this is a healthy dynamic and I think one can argue that Loki and even Thor are living proof of that. But it's a dynamic that the family has had for decades at this point. And I know you're going to bring up Odin basically begging Black Panther to kill Loki, but even then, Odin holds a high level of respect to Black Panther and his request is tantamount to him murdering Loki. Plus, given Odin's level of respect for his old team, one could argue that Odin is still trying to keep this "in the family."

I get that, but it's still hypocrisy, because LOKI IS FAMILY. Odin hasn't disowned him, he referred to him to BP as his son. so if anything goes inside the family, except when it comes to Loki, it's hypocrisy. But my problem is still the massive difference in attitude between the two takes. I really just can't see how they are in any way similar. Odin never called for Loki's head in Ewing's take, that's the point. Quite the opposite, he supported him when Freyja and Thor had abandoned him. So now Loki's mere presence is enough for him to tell him he wishes he had killed him as a child? I'm sorry but the stabbing thing isn't enough for me to buy that dramatic a change. And you can't even use the Celestial as an excuse there because that was before Odin knew about it.

I mean, I get it, Aaron clearly wants to work from an angle where all of Asgard hates his guts. That's fine. I get it. I hope it doesn't last, but I get it as the situation he wanted to start from. But I am just saying that if that was the case, there should have been more editorial oversight to make it consistent. when the end of Agent of Asgard resulted in everyone hating him, probably as setup for what Aaron wanted, they should have either made sure that extended to Odin as well, OR made Aaron conform to what was already established by Ewing, where Odin was his last supporter. This has been a pretty big issue in a lot of books, at DC as well, with Poison Ivy in particular, where the editors don't seem to think maintaining character consistency across different books matters, when I think it should, because it kind of kills the illusion that these books are happening within the same universe. If it means a writer has to change their story some to make it work, oh well, too bad.

I do wonder, how does this relationship between Loki and the Mad Celestial work? Is he magically controlling it? Is it still sick? It seems odd that the Mad Celestial is trying to kill more than Odin in what little we see of him. He doesn't even kill Odin, which while it goes with your idea that Loki doesn't want to kill Odin, also goes with the fact that Loki either has a great amount of control over the thing, or he's convinced it of his plan of not murdering Odin for whatever reason. Of course, this goes back to how Loki could either control it or talk it into trusting him, each option being especially interesting given that Celestials don't have the highest opinion of beings like Loki.

One thing that I think is going to come out of this storyline is that the current Avengers will have to make a choice like the old Avengers did in either helping or killing their great enemy, but I do question if that enemy will be the Mad Celestial or Loki himself. We know that the magic he's been using has a price that he is going to be unable to pay. He's currently been using the Celestial to counteract that, but how long is that going to hold? It doesn't help that Aaron is setting up some parallels between Loki and the Mad Celestials. As I said, Odin's punishment for Loki- chaining him to a rock by his son's entrails while his son drips poison in his eyes-doesn't sound that far off from Odin wanting to chain the Celestial's corpse to the moon. Loki is also a "mistake" from Odin's past that keeps coming back to haunt him. In the Celestial's case, it was a lack of mercy, though in Odin's mind, with Loki it has been a continued abundance of mercy.

No way to say right now if the Celesital is a puppet or a friend, maybe a bit of both, it could go either way. I am leaning towards puppet though, because I think it is pretty damn likely this is where Loki has been funneling his magic costs, and where the costs of those he offered to take would also be funneled. that in itself may be a way to keep it weakened enough for him to control it.

I think it's fairly clear that there are two groups of Celestials, there is some sort of Celestial war, or something, and they're finding themselves in the middle of it. There's the old regular Celestials, the ones who fell out of the sky dead, and there are these new 'Dark Celestials' and we don't yet know what their deal is, and we don't know if the fallen Celestial was part of the old school Celestials or the Dark Celestials. But i am pretty sure that it will end up that it is the Dark Celestials that are the big bads. And there is also the whole insect thing. Clearly they are somehow linked to all this, there were tunnels leading between their breeding chamber and the cave the Celestial was in, but it is unclear exactly what the connection is. Was the Celestial digging for those eggs a million years ago, or were they what it was infected with?

And yes, there are some pretty blatant parallels between the Celestials and the Frost Giants. I suspect the Frost Giants will invade New York as we saw in that teaser, and Loki warned Jane about as an intentional parallel. Just a question of whether it will be simultaneously with the Celestial attack or if it will happen shortly afterward. But in both cases, I think they will have a similar structure, the Frost Giant attack essentially being a smaller scale version of the Celestial attack, and what happens in one will inform the decisions made in the other. I suspect simultaneous because going from Celestial to Frost Giant would seem a disappointing step down in scale... then again, just about anything would be a step down in scale... but it's a tossup if it will occur in Thor or Avengers.

I know, but I've waited since 2015 for things to get a little better. I do not like the direction they are taking Loki, I didn't like the whole God of Stories change either, but this isn't the story I want to read anymore. It's been going on for too long and I'm really disappointed.

Sorry for the rant.

Well, I think any time we begin comparing something to what we want in our head vs what is actually made, judging by what it isn't rather than what it is, it's just setting yourself up for disappointment. Because while this may suck to hear, Marvel will never.... Never ever.... do exactly what you want. Accept that, and roll with it, and you'll be happier. They may do something you like, or even love, but it would be extremely unlikely that it was what you wanted beforehand. They are not mind readers, and it sounds as though the ship has sailed on what you want anyway. You have to do one of two things. Keep your head canon and let go of the comics entirely, (at least for a while. I had to do this for a while with Nightcrawler) go write it down in fan fic or something if mind movies aren't enough for you. Or, let go of what you think it should be to an extent and try and be open to something that may not be exactly what you wanted/anticipated and just judge on what it actually is rather than compare it to what you thought it should have been. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but it's just the way of things, you are clearly never going to be pleased with anything Marvel does if you dismiss anything that isn't exactly what you wanted, and you don't even read the books to give them a fair shake. Our little summaries here are not enough, I know people often tend to focus on gripes rather than what they like, so it probably makes it sound worse than it actually is.

Was this whole trying to covertly save the world while playing the part of the bad guy thing, or the Sorcerer Supreme thing what I would have pictured happening? would it have been what I said would be my ideal direction when Agent of Asgard ended? no, not really. But it still ended up being fun for the most part, and i could find things in those stories that I enjoyed. I also can't deny it fits with how he has been written in the past:



I loved Doctor Strange, even though it did some things I wouldn't have preferred, it was still well written and a ton of fun. And if the Midnight Sons thing happens, and Loki is part of it, I am SO down for that. (hell, even if he isn't Elsa Bloodstone is another one of my faves, so...) The Thor side of things dragged too much, yeah. But I have actually enjoyed it overall, my gripes aside. And i think Aaron has a really good voice for Loki, even if I do gripe about the pacing. And it does seem to be picking up the pace again, so now that I can see the light at the end of the tunnel there, I am more excited about it again. I haven't liked everything, of course, but I at least went into it giving it a chance to win me over. And if you didn't like the God of Stories change, which I wasn't fond of either (liked the idea of him re-defining himself, did not like the personality change and memory wipe that came with it) I mean... that's pretty much been done away with now, it only lasted those last couple issues pretty much, Aaron never stuck to the memory wipe or personality change, or at least walked it back a whooooole lot.

[Rosebunse]

I think there is plenty of argument that Odin is a huge hypocrite. And I agree that Odin is a lot more harsh under Aaron than he was under Ewing. And one way I have leared to cope with this is by taking the characterizations together and trying to make a cohesive character out of it. It's not the perfect thing to do, but when you sort of find the "average" of a character, I find it easier to enjoy them and easier to spot when things really get out of character.

In the case of Ewing's vs Aaron's Odin, I find it a case of it being a bit more complicated than Odin just loving or not loving Odin. In Ewing's run, Odin seemed to come to terms with Loki's uniqueness. He no longer made fun of Loki's lack of battle prowess compared to Thor and he accepted that, sometimes, Loki is a woman. He seems to gain some respect for Loki's manipulative qualities and magic. This is all in much contrast to how he treated Loki before. Also, just the fact that Odin admits that he loves his children, something he doesn't even admit to Thor that often.

In Aaron's story, Odin still isn't back to picking at Loki for his less than masculine qualities. And we know that plenty of Aaron characters do sprout out less than politically correct material when he wants to make them look despicable, so I'm going to take this as a sign that at least some of Ewing's Odin is still there.

As for why Odin is OK with using Black Panther to kill Loki, I think this comes down to the fact that while Odin is a hypocrite, there's also the fact that Malekith is trying to destroy Asgard and the other Realms and now he could potentially have a Celestial at his disposal if Loki lets him. Odin is also potentially asking Black Panther not only because he knows that he'll kill Loki if need be, but also he probably won't torture Loki to do it. Odin is probably betting on T'Challa being practical enough and good enough to try and give Loki a quick death, whereas with Frigga, Loki seemingly gave her a much more prolonged death, at least to outside observers.

The issue with the Celestial is just why it was mad. What are those little bugs? We know from The Ultimates that there is another group of Celestials who were loyal to the First Firmament. Could these be them? Or is this another group? My current theory is that this is another group that began to try and murder the other Celestials by infecting them with the eggs for the bugs. The unaware Celestials would then go about their business and then go mad, usually while seeding a planet. They would then go on a Ramage and destroy the planet and then themselves, potentially never being able to alert the others of what was happening. This brings up another issue, which is of this Mad Celestial is still insane, sick, or just really mad ar what happened to him. Loki could easily be using that anger to keep it in check. It just seems like it would be rather upset to be used as a battery. Of course, with as strong as it is, Loki could be using it and the thing might not even notice.

I'm not sure about the memory problems not still existing. The thing about Loki is that he could just Google himself if he wanted answers.

It is hard to be a Loki fan. And between us here and everything, it must seem a mess. But it really has been pretty fun.

[Raye]

Why the Celestial is mad, we just don't have enough information to go on yet to make a guess. But I am sure it will be explained, since it's been mentioned a few times. Good catch about the Ultimates though, I'd have to go back and check on that.

This could end up being nothing. But I was joking to a friend earlier that I thought it was funny that they had a whole Hunt for Wolverine mini, when they could literally just ask Loki and solve it all in like 5 minutes, cus Loki had NO trouble finding him. Then I actually read Hunt for Wolverine, and we have this panel at the super secret underworld auction of shady things:



green and gold, dark hair, horns... I mean... Now, it could be a red herring, someone at the auction simply dressing up as Loki (they are all in mask/costume to hide their identities, the auctioneer is in an Iron Man mask, while Tony himself is like, right there in the middle, and there are other eastereggs there) but it could also be Loki in a very half-assed 'disguise' and it really may end up with them asking Loki where Wolverine is.

[Rosebunse]

I thought that the Celestials from The Ultimates had been dealt with, but a few might have slipped through. And while the First Firmament has been dealt with and sent to Heaven or something, it doesn't mean that these ones aren't acting on his behalf.

But these are some very recent concepts, though I can see Aaron liking these concepts.

That does sort of look like Loki, though the horns are wrong, the hair is brown, and it looks like a woman from this angle. Being Loki, none of those are actual disqualifers.

None of the characters are going to think to ask Loki because, for one, they think he's some degree of evil and, well, him and Logan aren't exactly known to hang around each other a lot. In fact, this is the first interaction we know they've had in decadea.

And would Loki tell anyone where Logan is? We hAve seen Loki warn others, but he's been quite mum about Logan. Of course, no one would believe him if he did say something, partially because he's the God of Lies and partially because, again, he's simply not someone you think of when you think of Wolverine.

I do wonder about that bomb thing, though. It was green and the design for it seemed almost to beg for Wolverine to use it. The hard part is that the Loki at the time of that bomb would have either been Old Loki or kidLoki, unless the current Loki went back in time and inserted himself into the story. But then why would Logan never bring it up again?

[Raye]

I know, it was a joke. I know they have no reason to think Loki knows a damn thing about Wolverine. I just thought it was funny that finding him apparently warranted several minis, but Loki just found him like it was no big deal.... He knows (or knew recently anyway) exactly where he is, he's talked with him and everything, while the X-Men and Avengers are putting together teams of the brightest minds and best detectives to track him down. Well, and Ultron, but he is far less inclined to help than Loki would be. I think it may be funny if this is brought up in Avengers by Tony, (or here, if that is Loki) about how hard he was to find, and Loki's all like 'pffffffft.... It took me like 5 minutes' or something. but not a big deal if they don't, since it could be a bit hard to work in naturally.

And yeah, as far as I can figure, that lineup only ever appeared in 2010, the same year as Siege. So Loki may have already been dead at the time of that bomb. But it could have been something he set up right before he himself got blowed up. But Loki at that time wouldn't have been inclined to use something as high tech as that bomb, but I guess you never know. The deviousness of the trigger fits Loki around that time.

[Raye]

New Sideshow statue for Loki in his green Ragnarok costume, it looks real nice, and it's actually not a bad price!



https://www.sideshowtoy.com/collecti...tudios-903403/

[Fanto.mx]

I know, it was a joke. I know they have no reason to think Loki knows a damn thing about Wolverine. I just thought it was funny that finding him apparently warranted several minis, but Loki just found him like it was no big deal.... He knows (or knew recently anyway) exactly where he is, he's talked with him and everything, while the X-Men and Avengers are putting together teams of the brightest minds and best detectives to track him down. Well, and Ultron, but he is far less inclined to help than Loki would be. I think it may be funny if this is brought up in Avengers by Tony, (or here, if that is Loki) about how hard he was to find, and Loki's all like 'pffffffft.... It took me like 5 minutes' or something. but not a big deal if they don't, since it could be a bit hard to work in naturally.

And yeah, as far as I can figure, that lineup only ever appeared in 2010, the same year as Siege. So Loki may have already been dead at the time of that bomb. But it could have been something he set up right before he himself got blowed up. But Loki at that time wouldn't have been inclined to use something as high tech as that bomb, but I guess you never know. The deviousness of the trigger fits Loki around that time.

Just throwing this out there, since the evidence is super super super circumstantial, but what if Loki is actually helping hide Wolverine?

That would explain the ease with which he found him and also the difficulty for everyone else. And if it's magicky hidey wahey, maybe that doesn't work so well on Ultron?

[Raye]

Just throwing this out there, since the evidence is super super super circumstantial, but what if Loki is actually helping hide Wolverine?

That would explain the ease with which he found him and also the difficulty for everyone else. And if it's magicky hidey wahey, maybe that doesn't work so well on Ultron?

hmm... maaaaaybe. they did seem to have a bizarre level of familiarity for two character who i am pretty sure have not talked to one another on panel in like 30 years, which could be chalked up to something in the story we aren't aware of yet, which could mean Loki hiding him, for... reasons... but the again, Wolverine didn't exactly seem too keen on being there, and certainly didn't want him to have the stone, and just teleported away. I can't see how Loki could be keeping him hidden more than the Infinity Stone already was (before he gave it to Black Widow)