Loki Appreciation 2018

[marge_23]

so.... spoilers...

spoilers:

So Loki reaches the God Quarry but there is no thane there, nor any answers, instead there is a Loki from another universe who has all the Infinity Stones PLUS Mjolnir. Apparently Asgard is a bit different in that universe. He says the world is doomed, and a soul eater pops out of the God Quarry and kills him and the alt-universe Avengers he was with (looked like Cap, Valkyrie, Thing, Namor, Iron Man, Black Bolt, Hawkeye, Black Panther and Hulk) with ease. Loki now wants to get the stones, so they can get to the 'original universe' the alt-Loki mentioned. Then, the meeting of the Infinity Watch Strange arranged is getting underway, and i bring it up because, bizarrely, Thor and Iron Man are flying above the meeting, and Thor mentions that King Thor told him about this meeting. So clearly, Thor has been to the future, or King Thor visited the past. and... um... then Requiem is revealed to be Gamora, she's stolen the Power Stone, and she kills Star Lord.... :-/

end of spoilers

so. yeah... No Thane. Instead we get dumb coincidence and more of Loki being led around the plot with no agency, while he acts like a whiny, clueless idiot. this seems very at odds with his earlier depictions in the series, where he seemed to know a whole lot about what was going on, and how the stones worked. But I can think of one possible explanation.... He gets the Time Gem first, and the Loki we saw in the leadup was actually from the future. This could explain how Thor met up with his future self again, and then he could travel backwards in time to try and obtain the other gems before the Infinity Watch formed. but apparently unsuccessfully. It may even be that it was future Loki that tore the pages from that book. But he's still a whiny idiot in the present, so that sucks.

*edit - oh! Right, I forgot. I was going to mention how I had another look at the solicits, and this is a super long shot, but I think we may be seeing Thor and Loki go to Weirdworld next? Ok, so I noticed that both Champions and Weapon H are headed to Weirdworld in October, which alone is odd, and the Weapon H solicits mention that it is Roxxon that opens the portal, so they can get resources, and also Korg shows up. And on the subject of Korg, I watched Thor Ragnarok last night, (so good) and it dawned on me that both Weirdworld and Sakaar were described as a place where 'lost things are found'. So. We have 2 books going to Weirdworld simultaneously one of which is bringing back Korg of all characters, Roxxon is involved, and also, the Secret Wars Weirdworld mini creative team? Jason Aaron and Mike del Mundo. Now, I realize that individually none of these things necessarily point to Thor. But Aaron used Roxxon a lot in his time on Thor, Korg in the MCU was in a Thor movie, the Weirdworld mini and Thor currently have the exact same creative team... I am kinda thinking little mini crossover thing loosely inspired by Thor Ragnarok? But as I said, this is a long shot, it may just be coincidence and I am seeing a pattern where there is none.

What issue is this from?

[Raye]

Infinity Wars #1. I just hate it.... But other people seem to mostly be cool with it, so you know, you may still like it i dunno.

and looks like i happened to edit my post again just before you replied, so here's the bit i added, since it got bumped to the new page:

*Edit 2 - Also, I guess you can add Gamora to the list of possible Destroyer pilots. She would fit about as well as Loki now, except she is not Asgardian. I think Loki is still a good possibility. But I kind of hope it isn't, because though there would be nothing wrong with him on Asgardians of the Galaxy, I think I'd like to see him on Midnight Sons more, assuming the Damnation tease was actually leading to something. (though I was kind of thinking it would have been announced by now.... But I will give it another month or two) Simply because I want him in the hands of Donny Cates again, (before they put him on Thor *fingers crossed*) and Loki and Strange ended up being entertaining on panel together. And I doubt they'd have him on two teams at once. Thor (and/or solo, should they decide to do another solo) and one team, sure, but not two teams.

[Rosebunse]

OK, so, I think this is a very divisive issue. Personally, I'm mixed. I get where you're coming from, Raye, but I also feel like Duggan is trying.

Like the other Loki. That was just funny because we know tgat, secretly, Loki wishes he was like Thor. He knows he can't be and that it just wouldn't work, but it's still something he wants. Plus, you know, hacing the respect and love of those around him. But the thing is...our Loki hurts other Lokis. That's just something they are good at.

I think Duggan is trying to give us a Loki who is just making his plan. We're seeing a Loki plot from the beginnibg. The issue is, well, yeah, it feels too much like things are happening to him and not because of him.

My thing is, what's the endgame here? Something tells me that the real villain isn't Gamora. And what's the Original Universe? From before Secret Wars? Before that?

[Raye]

I am sure he IS trying, as is every other comic writer out there. But, to be blunt, I don't care. I am not here to encourage the writers and go 'well, you tried, that's all that matters' like they are a child. If i was reading fan-fic, i may be more inclined to take that approach, but not here, in the official books. These are professionals, I expect certain standards to be met. I am here to read stories that give me enjoyment in their official, canon setting, to see a huge story unfold over many years. And though I am being harsh with this, usually I am actually pretty forgiving, because I do realize they are made by people and there are constraints and such behind the scenes, they can't read my mind and duplicate exactly what i want, they may have a somewhat different take on the character (within reason) and all that. I get that. But I still want to be entertained, overall. I'll forgive some mistakes or decisions I don't particularly like, as long as the good outweighs the bad and it's entertaining. This tips the scales in the other direction for me... And while I get that it can be subjective, and others may like what I hate, what matters to me is how I personally feel. On the flip side, I have liked books that it seemed lots of people hated. (though, using message boards and the like for that is.... not the best gauge for what the majority thinks) Like, I loved Secret Empire, my one big complaint is that I wish it could have gone on longer to explore the whole situation. But again, don't care it it has haters, all that matters to me is what I think. I'm a big girl, I can make up my own mind about what I think is good or bad.

I think he just doesn't get Loki. At least, not the current Loki. There will always be some variation from writer to writer with a character, like Ewing's Loki is nicer, while Aaron's is more snarky (but also sad), Cates' split the difference and fell in the middle. They still fall within an acceptable range and have similar enough motivations and voice that i can accept that they are depicting the same character, it's fine. (though, Avengers is still weird, but I still think there must be something going on there. but if not, it... just super weird and i won't like that either even tho i like how Aaron handles him in Thor a lot) But there are limits, and usually a writer will end up having one or more characters they just don't click with. I've seen writers go on record before, basically apologizing because they know they got it wrong, but didn't know how to get it right, because they just ended up with a character they didn't click with at all. I think Loki is one of those for Duggan. Unfortunately, we discovered this after he had made him a major figure in a universe spanning event.... I can see he's tried to fix problems, but it's just not working because he seems to not really get him on a fundamental level. He seems to kiiiiiiiiiinda understand his base motivations at the moment, but not the subtleties. And I mean, I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt. When Loki first appeared in GotG, and he was being too cruel and talking all weird, and Wolverine and Loki seemed to know each other WAAAAAY too well, i was willing to see where it went, maybe there was an explanation, I thought. But though the voice seems to have improved some, most of that never ended up having an explanation. Loki just started talking a bit more like himself, and the Wolverine thing went absolutely nowhere, it's obvious now that Loki and Wolverine talking like they knew each other was just a big mistake, it's clear Duggan just.... didn't get the character. It appears he tried to fix it, in terms of the voice, but still. He obviously was going into this without a good understanding of Loki, and it hasn't improved much. What's frustrating is that if he had kept the whole popping up leaving cryptic clues thing there, but just fixed the voice, it would have been fine. But no, he just turned Loki into an idiot instead.

Though, I will say the lack of agency would be a big problem for ANY character, not just Loki, that's just not good any way you slice it. All characters should be steering their little corner of the story to an extent. (or at least, appear to be doing so, obviously the writer ultimately makes all the decisions) But it is an especially bad error with Loki, because a core aspect of his character, especially for the past several years, basically IS agency. And you kinda get that here from his words, but then his actions strip away all but the barest hints of agency. And as i mentioned before when breaking down Thor #3 vs this, him being in the process of forming a plan is no excuse. We saw Loki form 2 plans on the fly in a single issue of Thor, maintaining agency throughout, even when the second plan was initially suggested by Thor. Agency doesn't kick in only after it's all planned out and they have all the information, it should be there at every stage, and if anything it should be more present during the planning stages than afterward, that's where the decisions are being made. Right now the only decision he is making is that he has to find who is 'tricking' him which he's decided for..... reasons that didn't really make sense, was more of a handwave than anything.... and then to follow the breadcrumbs conveniently laid out before him thanks to dumb luck and an exposition fountain of a companion explaining everything (even things that by all rights he should already know). It's very thin. And ugh, the whole 'tricking' angle, I mean I know he's self absorbed, but he's not stupid. Surely any idiot could see that it's not all about him, after that whole soul eater incident.

[Rosebunse]

I think writing Marvel comics is hard because you're really not in control of the characters. You are renting them, essentially. You do what you can with them, but you're renting them. Other writers can be using them too at the same time.

Was this a great issue? No, but it wasn't one of the worst ones I've ever read and that isn't one of the worse Lokis I've read.

We also must remember that this is an event. He might have something really cool for Loki coming up.

[Raye]

Rented or not, other writers have managed to keep him in character.

Oh and as for endgame, well, ok, this will be rambly, but hopefully you see what I am getting at. I am mostly concerned with the Thor side of things, honestly. I've... lost interest in what Duggan is doing. I don't really care. (though the following may not look that way) I'm just following it for Loki, make sure nothing horrible happens to him. But it does present some interesting possibilities for Thor.

We see now that Infinity is getting it's fingers in a lot of things, including Thor. I am thinking Thor will be tying into all this in some significant ways, and with luck, we may see the issues with Loki and his fate handled a bit more adeptly in Thor. But they will quite obviously be tying together, though hopefully in ways that you don't need to read Infinity to get it. They have already crossed over, just no one quite realized it at the time. How did Thanos suddenly pop up in Hel? Simple, he died, just like everyone else. Luckily, it happens in a way where if you didn't know that, it still works. I mean he literally showed up in Hel BEFORE he died on panel, and no one caught that or thought it strange. You just think Hela somehow arranged for him to come (and that does play into it i am sure, I mean why else would he go to the Norse afterlife?) through means unspecified. If Loki can get to Hel, so can Hela and Thanos, surely. But no, it looks like he just.... died. It does clear up the timeline, though, Loki's sub plot in Infinity must take place after the arc in Thor, but not by much. Thanos' body was barely cold when he set off on his quest. Which likely places the Avengers arc first, otherwise things get too muddled. It also kind of indicates that Thanos WANTED this. Hela was like 'about time' so it seems like this was part of the plan. Cates' arc in Thanos also indicates this. He, like Loki, wanted to change his fate. He saw how his future self (he got pulled forward in time by Cosmic Ghost Rider thanks to a barley functioning fragment of the Time Gem. so, more hints, the gems likely end up broken at the end of this.) got stuck in a self destructive rut, and he wanted to break out of it. We saw he was successful, but not how. This indicates he maaaaay have beat his fate by dying. But in Cosmic Ghost Rider, Uatu said that Thanos' "path is immutable. Thanos has been chosen by an undefeated opponent." which is.... cryptic. I am not really sure what that means, but I presume it will have something to do with all this Infinity stuff. But it does indicate his fate may not be so easy to change as simply dying. If anyone can come back to life, it's Thanos. Death even said that he beat his fate by 'winning' so... Decapitated or not, I wouldn't count him out. But still, his motivation for dying is very close to Loki's, in a lot of ways, and I am guessing that will be touched upon, either in Thor or Infinity. Hopefully Thor. Unlike Loki though, he has no desire to be better in the moral sense (though, neither did Loki in the beginning, to be fair) just break out of that rut of continually trying to please Death until literally everything in the universe is dead, including himself. But this does make me worry that it will mean Loki does something bad, because fate and immutable roles, and that is why he went to the library. I just... want fun adventures with Thor. But we also know that immediately after the Hel arc, it jumps forward to the King Thor timeline for at least 2 issues, and we saw in Infinity that Thor mentioned speaking with King Thor. So Thor at the very least encounters King Thor, considering the far future arc, i am guessing he gets pulled forward during those issues, rather than the reverse. Which further refines the timeline between the two books. Infinity takes place not just after the Hel arc, but also the King Thor arc. But since time travel is involved, no significant amount of time in the present will pass, presumably. It's possible Loki goes with him, and sees his future, with the Necrosword, and everything dying, and THAT is what prompts his trip to the library. Hoping for the latter. But it is seeming like Loki will be getting ahold of the Infinity Gems, I have a hunch he's likely behind the Warp, it seems his style. After that, I dunno. And then Weirdworld for crazy ass adventures, please? Loki and Thor finding their way again, in the land where lost things are found?

[Raye]

And to add to the speculation above... A few other things occurred to me.

First, the most obvious one which I forgot to mention before in my ramble. Solicits for Asgardians of the Galaxy mention that Nebula has control of the Naglfar Armada, and a bunch of undead Asgardians. This seems to suggest that though they may succeed in preventing the Queen of Cinders from conquering Hel, they probably do not stop Thanos and Hela, unfortunately. It seems to me that Nebula likely gains control of the fleet via Thanos, she may be acting as his agent outside of the afterlife, or she went after him there and conquered it. Which could explain why a team of Asgardians specifically sets out to stop her. If Hel was given to Hela and Thanos in a deal as the lesser evil of two very bad situations, it could also explain why the Asgardians of the Galaxy have to work covertly without the rest of Asgard knowing.

And I gave Weirdworld another read, because I was very fuzzy on all the details. I know I am basing my hunch that Thor and Loki go there in the arc following the Hel arc (and possibly a trip to the future) on very little, so this more than likely may all lead absolutely nowhere, but it seems to fit so well. They are both kind of lost right now, Thor figuring out where he stands without Mjolnir, Loki having some trouble changing his fate, and both of them dealing with their past baggage with one another in terms of their relationship. So thematically, them going to the place where lost things go (presumably not by choice) makes sense. It is the exact same thematic setup as Ragnarok, just swap out Sakaar for Weirdworld. But, also like Ragnarok, also I think it would help them on a personal level to go to a place there the only thing they are familiar with is each other. None of the usual outside influences pulling them in opposite directions, it's just them against a very bizarre and hostile world they know nothing about, and they are all they have to rely on (and Thori and Toothgnasher) as they try and find their way back home. But I think the similarities with Weirdworld will just be thematic. Here is where it differs from Ragnarok. In my read through, I was reminded how heavily it borrowed elements from the Saga of Crystar. Which was a toy line Marvel tried to launch in the 80s and it bombed. (which is a bit weird since it is thanks to Marvel that Transformers and G. I. Joe are what they are today, it was Marvel that took a bunch of toy designs and turned them into characters and a story) They made an accompanying comic though, and since it was Marvel itself that owned the Crystar IP, unlike with the other toy lines they contributed to over the years, they can continue to use the characters. Anyway, in the comic, the basic plot of the Saga of Crystar is that there was a was two twin princes, Crystar and Moltar. Crystar claimed the throne for Order, and Moltar claimed it for Chaos, and they have been at each other's throats ever since. Though this took place during Secret Wars as part of Battleworld, the mini remains canon. Maybe some details got massaged, but generally, the final page of the Secret Wars mini is the second page of the main universe series, so it all happened, more or less. Though we never saw mention of Prince Crystar and his Crystal Warriors (aside from a shard of one) after he was reassembled at the end of Aaron's book, he must still be out there, and we did see Moltar continuing his deal. It was also like, he got reassembled and then... the book ended. Granted, that was the b plot, but still. There was a bit of a cliffhanger there with Crystar. So we have a world where there are two princes in an unending war over the throne? Hm... Could definitely be a situation that might help a Thor and Loki take a step back and view their relationship from a different perspective, don't you think?

I admit, I will be a bit bummed if this doesn't happen. But if it doesn't hopefully we at least get something cool. But I do think it will be a relatively brief detour, and then back to the War of the Realms.

[Raye]

Double post

[Fanto.mx]

The idea that maybe Thor and Loki, who have just now started to tentatively and tenuously maybe work together, would get thrust into a situation where, essentially, a mirror is held up to their relationship has a lot of potential to push their story forward.

For me, the fracture between them was taking too long to be developed because, as we pointed out a few pages ago, the whole Asgardian family refused to even talk to each other. Silent grudges don't really move anything forward. It didn't need to be resolved, just actually put into action and developed a little, since it was this huge looming plot point that kept getting brought up but never really went anywhere.

Now it has, and ironically, it's probably a little too fast for my tastes now. Years of build up to a situation where the brothers have to count on each other was kind of resolved in like three pages...or was it?

The Weirdworld possibility would make them really face their relationship and how they feel because of the aforementioned mirror. It would give them a need to confront it and a chance to move from desperate pseudocooperation to maybe settling into some sort of resolution. Both of them have real good reason to be angry and distrustful of each other, and I don't think those will go away, but some sort of operative relationship opens the story possibilities back up, releasing the plot from the need for a big confrontation.

[Raye]

It is fast, but I think that's a combination of Thor trying to put aside his anger in order to get things done, and also that the gulf between them in Thor's mind wasn't as great as his actions may have made it appear.

I think he kind of put on a big blustery display of anger that was quite over the top. Like he was trying to bury his love for Loki under anger. I think though he wanted everyone, and even himself, convinced that he completely hated Loki, there was still that brotherly love underneath that, which he wanted to kind of bury and ignore, but couldn't. You could see this going back to the end of Agent of Asgard where he delivered a savage beating, but just couldn't bring himself to end Loki. I've said many times in this thread that anger and love are not mutually exclusive, you can feel both at the same time. So I have no doubt his anger was genuine, just that he sort of tried to exaggerate it, in part BECAUSE he still loved his brother. I could definitely see kind of wanting to choose between anger and love, in order to make things simpler, and remove a toxic influence from his life. (I love Loki, but I can't deny he was not exactly a good part of Thor's life for a very long time) But wanting to do something and actually doing it are very different things. The sad part is that he chose to do this at a time when Loki was actually wanting to be nice to him and be a good(ish) brother for once.

I think Thor is on his way to being able to be ok with Loki again, but the current plan, while it is very sweet that he literally trusted Loki with his life, is also sort of a desperate situation. I'm reading it as more of him putting his grievances on the back burner a bit in order to get things done. After the situation is over, I think they will still have work to do, rather than them being just completely fine with each other. But that he's willing to do that at all, to trust Loki even though it was a situation where he didn't have a ton of options, is a step forward for sure.

And yeah, the Weirdworld thing, i really hope that happens, even though I do realize it's not based on much. The two warring princes thing is too perfect a mirror, and it definitely felt like something was (intentionally) left unresolved there when the first series ended. Not to mention, it would just be crazy and bizarre fun, and we already know Del Mundo is up to the task, having done two series set in Weirdworld already. Also, now i think about it, that could even tie in to the War of the Realms, since in the Weapon H solicit, it said that Roxxon was the one that opened the portal, so where there's Roxxon, Dario Agger is probably not far behind.

Also, read Squirrel Girl today, and no, Loki did not appear, BUT, we were given some possible context for the cover of issue #37, at least in terms of the characters who appear on it. Cus, after a, uh, incident with Kraven and Spider-Man, Doreen is able to talk them down, and proposes to Kraven that they form the Justice Pals for real (they made a little pretend super team a couple issues earlier... it makes sense in context) so while i think this offer was only extended to Kraven, technically, and he actually refused, (for the time being) I think this could easily be extended to forming a team of the ex-villains Doreen has had in the book, which totally fits the cover of issue #37, with Kraven, Loki, Rhino, and Hippo all there (plus assorted other characters, including Brain Drain who is also an ex villain, but also a regular member of her supporting cast, so not unusual that he's there) so I am kinda thinking that the Justice Pals may actually happen sooner rather than later, and Loki may participate.

[Raye]

Preview for Thor #4 has been posted, Loki is in it for only one page, but it's a good page, where Loki sends Thor's hammer to his brother with a magic chain attached in order to get him back from Valhalla. That Thor is expecting the hammer with the chain could be construed as an oversight since not like Loki and Thor talked that part of the plan through, but I'm taking it as him knowing Loki well enough to expect what he'd do. I do like that it further reinforces that this plan requires both Thor and Loki to work, that neither one of them could do it alone. Thor needed to not only "die" he also needed a way to find his way back, which Loki provided, and Loki could not have made it to Valhalla. And this plan required a lot of trust from Thor, there was all sorts of ways Loki could have done something awful to him in this plan. But nope, Loki came through, and this page makes it clear there was no bad intent on Loki's part in the "murder". This is a good demonstration of how they are both strengthened by working together.


http://www.comicosity.com/exclusive-preview-thor-4/

Also, appears there is some relationship drama coming with Hela and Thanos, not that I feel particularly bad about that at the moment.

[Rosebunse]

Love that preview!

So, I've been sort of busy the last few days, but has anyone read the last Venom issue? First, it's just been a really great series. And also it has give us an interesting-unnecessary but interesting-recon for the Black Necrosword.

It's a symbiote.

More accurately, it's a pice of semi-sentient nothingness that was forged by a crazy survivor from a previous universe who used Celestial energy to create it.

Now, again, this all sounds sort of...like, too much? Too much Marvel weirdness.

But I can't say that it doesn't fit given what we know about the sword. For one, when you look at it, doesn't it look like a symbiote? It's black and stringy and we see people like Gorr use it to hold others down. And look at what it did to Galactus and Ego; it brings out the negative and extreme emotions of those who hold it.

Now...what does this mean for Loki's future? Does this change anything?

[Rosebunse]

Double post

[Raye]

I did read it. And I don't think it is too outlandish. Considering the Necrosword is capable of slaying thousands of gods and Galactus with ease, it kind of needed a rather outlandish origin, you don't get a weapon capable of what it was able to do with a tame, ordinary origin. And also, considering the powerup Thor got when he used it, I think something like primal god essence is kind of needed for that. And as you said, the visuals fit. Also, when Thor used it, he got white on black speech balloons, just like Venom:


I dunno, looking back at some of the Gorr stuff, it even kind of seems like this may have been the intent from the beginning. What was solicited and hinted at in the far future, with stars being snuffed out one by one, matches what he says he wants to do in Venom. It may be that Cates is helping to set up something in Thor.

And it likely does change things a bit for Loki in the far future. It means he is more than likely not in his right mind, so him going 'evil' again in the far future may not be due to him falling to his bad nature, so much as it is him being controlled by the Necrosword and maybe even this god of darkness. That's a good thing, because it means it won't be a failing on his part as a person.

also, Donny Cates obviously wants to write Thor so bad. And that's a good thing, because he would be my top pick to take over from Aaron right now. It may be that they are letting him lay some seeds for his eventual take over of the title, by tying all this to the Thor mythos. Whether it's his choice or him working with Aaron to set something up for Thor. I think Aaron probably has at least a year left, but there is no saying Cates can not lay some basic groundwork elsewhere first. Though, I would not be averse to him laying that groundwork in something a bit more closely linked, like, say... a Loki solo.... though admittedly, with Aaron seeming to be gearing up for a big Loki and Thor team up, a solo for Loki may be a little difficult at this precise moment, since he's most likely kind of supposed to be hanging out with Thor all the time for the next while, so...

[Rosebunse]

Venom is doing well in sales, which is certainly unexpected, sort of. It's a good book and Venom is a popular charscter, but still. I think Cates has it in him to become a top writer for Marvel. Thor is a top title for them under Aaron.

I didn't notice the lettering color, but you're right. That looks exactly what you see when someone is a host for a symbiote. And we know how much Aaron likes his longtime plans.

But yep, with this new information, this means that future Loki can't be considered to be in his right mind. And it means that the Necrosword itself might be responsible for the end of the future.