Loki Appreciation 2018

[Raye]

Not that I am trying to discredit what Cates is doing on the book, he's one of my faves, but from what I understand Venom is always a strong seller. I know it doesn't seem like it should sell quite so well, but he (they?) apparently has a very strong fanbase, but one that is mostly silent online. Go figure.

Having another look at the part where Loki got the Necrosword, he did decide to go get it, after seeing what it had done. so he's not completely innocent here. But I do think it still will make him act worse than he would normally.

And between this new origin of the symbiotes, which involves Thor in a prominent role, and the whole God Butcher story also tying things to the symbotes, I am wondering if we may be getting a Venom crossover in a bit. Not a crossover I would have expected for Thor, but it would make some sense now.

[Rosebunse]

I guess Venom is just one of those characters you associate with Marvel and all that, but Venom fans are so integrated in with the rest of us that we don't notice them. Also, don't try and find the Venom fanfiction. Stay away from that dark place. I thought it would be fun and I was wrong.

What makes this revelation interesting is that Eddie Brock and Venom aren't exactly trusted by most superheroes. They've recently tried to be better and have sort of stepped up into a more heroic position, but they still aren't really buddy-buddy with someone like Thor. In fact, I think they're just going to try and solve this by themselves, which will probably get them into contact with Thor. Oh, that cross-over will be fun!

Yes, Loki was looking for it and observing it, but that doesn't answer the question of if he knows just what the Necrosword is. Looking back, yes, it's sort of obvious now what it is, but to characters in the story it just looks like another evil sword. And its exact nature isn't known. It isn't entirely sentient and it didn't seem to kind being away from its creator. The only thing we know about it is that it hates gods...which actually doesn't bode well for Loki since he is a god.

Also...I was sort of right before! There is a corrupted/sick Loki out there! Just maybe not the current one.

[Raye]

Whether he knew exactly what the nature of the sword was or not is kind of irrelevant, it's origin doesn't really matter here. He still had to know what it was capable of. Gorr had killed a whole lot of the gods with that thing, and tormented Thor with it for hundreds of years. Asgard was abandoned save Thor largely due to Gorr and the Necroblade. So whether he knew it was the sword of Knull from the beginning of time doesn't matter, Loki more than likely knew exactly what the Necrosword was capable of, he still saw that it was capable of great destruction, it was quite plainly NOT 'just another evil sword' after what it did to Galactus and Ego right before his eyes. It wasn't even in the form of a sword at that time, it was just pure malevolent darkness. So him taking it likely did not have a good purpose. I just don't think it was AS bad as what he will likely end up doing. And it doesn't hate gods, it was created and wielded by a god, after all. It hates creation, things that clutter up the void. It's just that most gods also fall into that category, and were largely responsible for creating all the things, so acting with Gorr served it's purpose, even though he was solely focused on gods specifically.

And I don't know if a crossover will happen. I'm just saying that it could fit. In any case, the Necrosword can't play a part in the present day, since it doesn't exist in the present, because Gorr time traveled to the future. The MU is currently in a Necrosword/Gorr free point of time. Unless future-Loki sends it back through time somehow, but the solicits and hints seem to indicate the Necrosword/Loki/Knull is quite busy snuffing out stars.

But speaking of crossoves which may or may not happen, looks like the Weirdworld story is starting earlier than I anticipated, gets going this week in Weapon H http://www.comicosity.com/preview-weapon-h-6/ and yes, looks like Dario Agger is all over this. I have not been reading that book (Wolverine/Hulk hybrids do not rank high on my areas of interest....) but looking at that preview, I do notice it is edited by Wil Moss, who also edits Thor. so.... But with this starting earlier than I thought, Thor and Loki had better hurry up if they are to have a Weirdworld adventure of their own.

Big Loki sale on Comixology btw: https://www.comixology.com/Loki-Sale...WxsQ2Fyb3VzZWw ends tomorrow, I didn't notice it until just now, so act fast if you are missing anything

[Rosebunse]

Krull-I think that's how you spell his name-isn't really a god. And if he is, he sort of stretches the definition of what a god is in the MU. Of course, that definition was always sort of vague.

But what I mean us, the guy isn't a guy. He's just a being who was either created in the void or he's another survivor from the universe before.

He focused his own rampage on gods and on the Celestials, who aren't really gods either but who do love to create.

Krull also only really seemed to have control over the symbiote and as we see, it didn't take too much for them to turn against him. He's only "god of the symbiotes" because he created them and they have to obey him, but that's it. They can clearly rebell if they try and there are enough of them together.

Yes, how do we get the Necrosword back? Thor probably wouldn't want much to do with it, though Krull might. He spent a long bit of time without it, so maybe he likes the symbiotes because they have to listen to him while the nonsentient sword doesn't?

I feel like Aaron will want to bring in King Thor and future Loki into the current story, though looking at it, given that we're also going to get Phoenix Wolverine and Dr. Doom, I wonder if Loki and the sword are final villains for Aaron or if it's someone else?

Also, anyone wonder if the Horde are gonna be connected to the Necrosword?

[Raye]

How is he not a god? He created an entire race of beings from his own essence, he is immortal, billions of years old at this point, that sounds like a god to me. He calls himself a god. Gorr called him a god. He may be an elder, primordial god, older than pretty much any other god out there, but still a god. A god of darkness and nothingness, god of the symbiotes. 'god' in the MU is a fairly broad category.

I don't think we get the Necrosword back in the present, is what I meant. That would screw up the timeline royally, and muck up Aaron's God Bomb story, i doubt they'd do it. Maybe if it was used as a way to prevent the bad future, but I don't really see how that would work. If it crosses over in the present timeline, (which is seeming less likely to me as I think about it, to be honest) I think it would have more to do with the fact that it was Thor's lightning that laid him low the first time. I think they may use some of what Cates established but not in a true crossover, by having Knull encounter the sword again in the distant future as the task he had tried to achieve for billions of years finally comes to fruition.

(and it is Knull)

A few pages back I speculated that Thor and maybe Loki travel to the future. in Infinity Wars, Thor said that King Thor had warned him about the Infinity Watch meeting going bad, so he talks to King Thor at SOME point. During the arc following the Hel arc seems most logical by far. If Thor and Loki get sucked into the future through some means, they could spend a fair amount of time there, but only a few seconds may pass in the present, allowing them to go on to use the knowledge they gained in Infinity Wars and beyond. It may be that Loki taking a trip to the future and seeing that he was literally erasing the galaxy one star at a time (assuming that is him doing that) could certainly send him into an existential crisis about constantly returning to villainy.

[Rosebunse]

I guess I consider a true "god" in the MU to be a being who's strength is dependent on its followers and how much they believe in them. Also I consider them to have some connection to the broader cosmic hierarchy.

I don't consider Knull-thank you!-to be a true god because these symbiotes don't actually seem like followers. They're creations that not only immediately turned on him when they could, but then went about actively trapping him so that no one else knows about him.

Plus, we don't consider beings like Galactus or the the Masters of the Universe gods. They're more like really old and really powerful beings.

But truly, we could go on and on about this definition all day.

And do you mean that Gorr called Knull a god or that Gorr was a god? Because that is a tricky question. Gorr's obviously didn't consider himself a god-though this is debatable AF-others did consider him a god.

Actually, the more I think about this, the more this just proves your point since Knull like Gorr also drew his godlike power from the cosmic hierarchy...

You win this round.

But I still contend that Knull is especially going after the gods based on what he says and his preoccupation with the Celestials, whom he especially seems to blame for his existence.

Also, going after gods makes it easier to destroy the entire universe anyways.

I agree that Loki seeing his future self would probably scare him, especially since future Loki seems to be posessed and becoming more of what we'd typically see in a symbiote host. We know that the Necrosword is powerful enough to corrupt even Galactus and Ego, meaning that I don't know how even our Loki would avoid succumbing to it.

[Fanto.mx]

I don't remember anything in Marvel that indicated that those who would be acknowledged as gods draw power from followers. I mean, Odin predates any sort of follower. There's the whole story thing, but that's really, really different from belief, and even then it seemed like the story just had to exist, not even needing to be continually told.

Thor overcame the Necrosword's influence, right? Twice, wasn't it? Granted, Thor's willpower is simpler/stronger in some ways, but it at least seems possible that Loki could break free, too...unless he waits too long. Perhaps that's what's going on. He thought he could handle it for some big problem and then just...held on too long.

But that's if that story is an extension of the current one, which we really have no evidence for.

But I still contend that Knull is especially going after the gods based on what he says and his preoccupation with the Celestials, whom he especially seems to blame for his existence.

It's not that he blames them for his existence. He blames them for ruining it with all their making stuff, their "light." He was perfectly content being the only one in a vast realm of darkness. Not only does the text specifically say that, there's additional evidence. First, it's right there in his name, Knull/Null. He is the god of nothingness. Second, with the whole Grendel thing, since Grendel's whole thing is wanting quiet.

So it's not him taking revenge on his creators, it him trying to bring things back to the "pristine" quiet darkness that he enjoyed at the dawn of the universe.

[Raye]

Right, if gods required belief to exist or have power, then that would mean no gods could have created life, because they would predate their followers. Such a scenario can work, such as with American Gods, but that supposes the gods came after humanity, that the gods were created by people, not the other way around. And we have seen that the Elder Gods and Odin and some others predate humanity or whatever other race they created or otherwise came to worship them. And, personally, I would consider Galactus, the Phoenix Force, the Celestials, and others like them gods. Sure, Galactus or the Phoenix is more commonly described as a 'force of nature' or similar, but i don't think the two are mutually exclusive, they still check enough of the god boxes to count as far as I'm concerned.

A few ideas have been floated in recent years about what makes a god, or at least what makes a GOOD god. Gorr and Mangog seemed to be of the opinion that a god was no good unless they were serving the people, answering prayers, protecting them, etc. The whole power and responsibility thing on a cosmic scale. Thor has to be a worthy god to his followers in order to be worthy of Mjolnir, more or less. It's certainly a nice idea, but I think this is a bit simplistic. Maybe a little selfish and entitled on the part of their followers if taken to it's logical extreme, where every whim has to be catered to by the gods. It also doesn't really allow for evil gods, or gods of destructive or abstract forces that lack followers, such as Knull. I don't think 2 beings identical in terms of origin, power, abilities etc. but one protects their people and serves them and the other doesn't should render the evil one not a god. Just an evil god. I think it's more that gods have domains over which they preside, roles to fill in the cosmic hierarchy. Loki used the language of stories to explain this, but it's kind of the same difference. In order for Loki to be a good person, he has to be a bad god, because he'd have to abandon his cosmic godly role. Assuming the universe would even let him abandon it. That's why he tried to change his role, but it apparently didn't work.

and Gorr did not consider himself a god, he took offense when called that, because he hated gods so much. And since his power came more from the weapon he wielded than from himself, I could see why he would not be considered a god. But on the other hand, he worked on such a large scale, and had such a strong purpose to his actions, so.... I think he is a borderline case. It is certainly not unheard of for a mortal to ascend to godhood. But Knull is a straight up god, he considers himself a god and Gorr considered him a god (he described Knull as a god when relating how he got the Necrosword)

I never caught that about Knull's name, good eye! and yeah, the Celestials had jack all with creating Knull, he's not mad at them for creating him, he's mad at them for cluttering up his peaceful dark realm. So while he's certainly angry at gods since they are the ones who created all the stuff, unlike Gorr, he won't stop at just killing the gods. Gorr would have stopped with the god bomb, he only wanted the gods eliminated, he thought the universe would be better off without them, so all the planets, all the people, he'd have left alone. Knull wants to return the universe to an empty void, so that means destroying every star, every planet, and every being on those planets.

And yes, Thor resisted the Necrosword's influence, but he only wielded it for a short time, and the dialogue seemed to imply that the sword was making him much more destructive and brutal, and his granddaughters told him to resist the sword's pull. So it was certainly implied that if he'd held on to it for too long it would have corrupted him.

[Rosebunse]

Maybe this is my issue with calling Knull a god. Gods have a function within the natural order. Even someone a god like Loki serves a function. He is the God of Michief, the God of Stories. He pushes the story farther until it reaches its end. Even Gorr and the Mangog serve a function in that they punish other gods for their hubris and failings.

Does Knull have this? He created the symbiotes, yes, but he also doesn't really serve a natural function. He simply survived the beginnings of the universe, then gets mad at the Celestials. The symbiotes don't even worship him, nor do they really give him a function to serve.

[Raye]

Sure. He oversees darkness and nothingness. It is an abstract role, and one that doesn't require followers, and one that will bring him into conflict with the entire rest of the universe, but it is a role. He is the ultimate antagonist, basically, because he is violently opposed to EVERYTHING. If the universe is a repeating cycle of returning to a void and then being created all over again, as has been implied with characters like Galactus, then his role is vital. Not something people living in the current universe would ever want, but it is needed for that cycle to function at all.

[Fanto.mx]

Knull is The Nothing.
Never-ending-Story-Gmork.jpg

[Rosebunse]

Knull is The Nothing.
Never-ending-Story-Gmork.jpg

God bless you lol

But isn't that a role technically reserved for the often unseen Oblivion? It doesn't feel like Knull really oversees it so much as he is a part of it. The symbiotes are literally pieces of him that gained sentience from Thor's thunderstrike...I think...Damn, Marvel really took the symbiotes to a weird place.

I wish that Venom movie would connect to the larger MCU. I can dream.

So we're getting the Thor book tomorrow. Are we also getting Avengers?

[Rosebunse]

Double Post

[Raye]

But who says there can be only one god in a particular role? It's not like Tyr can't be a god of war because Ares is. And I mean, teh story and multiple other characters refer to him as a god, and the description seems to fit to me, so I'm calling him a god until such time it says otherwise, it's basically that simple.

No Avengers today, looks like the only other think Loki was in was Infinity Wars (for just one panel)

But Thor! Ok, so first off, a little goofy thing I've been doing this week. So, the book right now is basically a metal album put to print, from the logo to the art to the general tone, even Sindr's steed bore a suspicious resemblance to Motörhead's War Pig. (though with a different nose) and of course metal and all things Norse myth have a long history together. So when I saw the preview for this week's issue, this just popped into my head, and I am declaring it the theme song for today's issue. It will read better if you have this playing, I am sure of it:




But honorable mention to Turisas' Stand Up and Fight.

And um, basically, I got a little carried away and created a playlist for the past several issues. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...yi3b3AWHWQQAfF Just some goofy fun to occupy my time.... I think i will keep adding a few songs per issue, though. Starts out with kind of theme songs for Thor and Loki. Thor was easy, Loki not so much, sure there are plenty of songs ABOUT him, hell Amon Amarth has an entire album about Loki (one of the songs from it appears later) but the Loki in the songs didn't feel like OUR Loki, at least not any more, so i went for a more thematic approach for him. I ended up going with The Unforgiven, though I dunno, Avatar's Bloody Angel could also fit, but 2 Avatar songs i a row would have been a little off, and Eagle Has Landed was about as good a fit as you could hope for, for the Loki teleporting Thor to Hel bit. I tried to have a mix of classic and newer stuff, and yeah, Amon Amarth is quite heavily represented, but i mean, their whole thing is Norse mythology, pretty much, so... also, the Wardruna song isn't metal, it's straight up pagan folk, but it fit thematically and is cool. You can stop at Stand Up and Fight, if you bother to listen to it, everything after that is some songs I suspect may be relevant in the future, but they may also end up being deleted, I just wanted to keep links to them handy just in case.

Okay, on to the actual issue. So I liked it, even if i was a little disappointed that Loki did not stick around for awesome fun adventures with his brothers. But there's no saying that can't happen in the future. And it felt like Aaron was just kinda forced to abandon his plans for Thanos, and so he wrote him out abruptly, which is a bit disappointing. (and I guess i was wrong about how he showed up in Hel, oh well) But yeah, it was fun, even tho it was mostly a big fight. Lots of cute little moments, I liked Thor stealing Hela's hat, the twist with the wedding, i did not anticipate that. On that point, We never did get an answer to why Karnilla is so angry with Loki, but her dialogue to him when she asked for his help gave me the feeling it was something she saw in the strands of fate right before she died. And that maybe, with her doing what she did, fate may be changed, which may extend to Loki as well. The aftermath is where I find it most interesting though, even though it didn't end with things quite as I had hoped. Balder back among the living and with his brother (and Valkyrie) is the biggest thing. But I was a little saddened to see Loki leave, and to see Thor go right back to not trusting him, assuming he had bad intentions, after they had made such an awesome team together in Hel.

As for Loki specifically, that he only took a picture of Freyja, something worthless aside from sentimental value, confirms that he had no bad intentions here, he just wanted to help, but he presumably felt like Thor would not accept his help if he had just asked, so he concocted a scenario to force the matter a bit. I do wonder what Thor will think when he finally realizes what Loki actually took. I guess it's possible that him taking the photo has some deeper meaning to it, it could point to him going after the real Freyja, but I can't see how taking the portrait would help him in that regard, so the point still stands that he did all this help Thor get to where he was needed in the War of the Relams. Getting Thor to Hel most likely WAS his goal. Which means he betrayed Malekith. Again. He already sent Jane vs the invading Frost Giants in Dr Strange. But the difference there is, Malekith had no way of knowing that it was Loki that tipped Thor off to the location of the giants. Here though, Loki presumably tried to send Thor to Hel alone so he could continue to deny that he was plotting against Malekith, except Thor pulled him along for the ride, blowing his cover. And while that proved beneficial in terms of defeating Sindr, it places Loki in a bad spot in terms of maintaining his deep cover/double agent or whatever the hell it is he's doing with Malekith. He will have a real hard time denying his involvement in these events, Sindr had to have seen him, helping Thor bring in the army of Valkyries and Einherjar to kick her ass, and actively fighting her fire goblins. So I am curious to see what happens there, does he somehow manage to talk his way out of this, or does this signal him flipping sides fully? Not that he was ever really on Malekith's side, i don't think. And he doesn't really do 'sides' anyway, but you know what I mean.

[Fanto.mx]

I liked the issue, too. Thori's moment in the middle where he momentarily contemplates giving up murder struck me as both odd and fun. Is there something happening there that I missed to invoke that as a response?

I realize that they're both (sort of) valkyries, but I was momentarily confused about the painting because Brunhilde and Frigga are identical on that page. Also, I guess Skurge came back to the land of the living with them, since he's in Asgardians of the Galaxy, but he sure didn't seem to be on the boat.

And yeah, a little disappointed that there isn't any clear intent to keep Thor and Loki together for further adventures, since I think there's a lot of potential there, but since we have a few months of the far future and King Thor, maybe Loki is needed in some other book for now.