Loki Appreciation 2018

[Rosebunse]

Yeah, I really liked this issue because of Loki and Emma, but I think we can all agree that this is the most confused comic any of us have read in a while. Like, I really like Loki being such a focus, but logically it feels like he shouldn't be and this should be more about the GotG.

For us Loki fans, the fact that Loki is confirmed to still be the God of Stories means that he actually is pretty OP. Marvel comics are stories, that is how he beat the Beyonders or whoever they were in Secret Wars.

This could actually explain how he's in so many places at once, but creating new characters and keeping them tied to him. It also explains why Loki is involved in this at all and explains his annoyance in the beginning of Infinity War at the story not going how it is supposed to go.

This all is very similar to his powers and even sort of motives in YA, but the difference here is that we have a mature and slightly more stable Loki who knows that he is the God of Stories. Teen Loki really was having trouble with his powers partially because he didn't know how to use them.

A Penance Stare on Loki might be pretty debilitating given his own guilt over his mother and Kid Loki and probably a host of other things.

I don't know, the imagine of this I'm seeing doesn't look like hills. It looks like lines. I think it is in a Celestial type base, which could include the Avengers HQ. I like the art, but it is loose.

[Raye]

Yeah, I really liked this issue because of Loki and Emma, but I think we can all agree that this is the most confused comic any of us have read in a while. Like, I really like Loki being such a focus, but logically it feels like he shouldn't be and this should be more about the GotG.

For us Loki fans, the fact that Loki is confirmed to still be the God of Stories means that he actually is pretty OP. Marvel comics are stories, that is how he beat the Beyonders or whoever they were in Secret Wars.

This could actually explain how he's in so many places at once, but creating new characters and keeping them tied to him. It also explains why Loki is involved in this at all and explains his annoyance in the beginning of Infinity War at the story not going how it is supposed to go.

This all is very similar to his powers and even sort of motives in YA, but the difference here is that we have a mature and slightly more stable Loki who knows that he is the God of Stories. Teen Loki really was having trouble with his powers partially because he didn't know how to use them.

A Penance Stare on Loki might be pretty debilitating given his own guilt over his mother and Kid Loki and probably a host of other things.

I don't know, the imagine of this I'm seeing doesn't look like hills. It looks like lines. I think it is in a Celestial type base, which could include the Avengers HQ. I like the art, but it is loose.

At this point, I think 'God of Stories' is little more than a title, I don't think it grants him any significant degree of additional power. Or he would have used it by now, in Thor, Dr Strange, Infinity Wars, Avengers, someplace, and he hasn't. He knows more than he ought to, which may be related to that, but I think that's the extent of it, if that's where he's getting this knowledge, or he'd be approaching situations differently. I don't think he is like, a reality warper now or anything, or we'd have seen him doing that by now, it's been years, he's had plenty of opportunity. I think Ewing likely intended for more to come from it, but I don't think it really worked out that way long term. What he did with Thoe Who Sit Above in Shadow could be chalked up to reality coming undone at that moment, causing the rules of the universe to break down. And even if it did grant him power, you just can't make him be able to create copies of himself at full power with no cost to himself, it's too much, he could not be beaten by anyone if he could do that. The reason Multiple Man gets away with it is because all his dupes are just regular dudes with no additional power beyond creating dupes. If they could all do powerful magic, and had super strength/durability, like Loki has, it would be absurd. It's potentially an army of non-squishy wizards. He needs limits, or nothing can challenge him, and everything he faces becomes trivial. I mean, I'm pretty sure his is the reason Gwenpool, who had story control powers, got nerfed in West Coast Avengers, too. It worked in a solo setting, where they could really dig into it, and she was kinda fighting herself more than anything (much like Loki) but stick her on a team and you either nerf her, or you're constantly wondering why she doesn't just write the story so they win, because powers like that basically are a 'I win' button. Same deal with Loki if the whole God of Stories thing gave him story altering powers that he could use with ease (I'd be fine with something like in JIM, where he had to like, write it down, and had to use the Fragment of Twilight etc.)

And Loki in YA knew how to use his powers, he had all the experience and knowledge of the old Loki, it was only his body that was young. He knew damn well how to do magic. What he didn't have experience with was guilt over his previous actions, which caused him to use of those powers subconsciously to try and hurt himself. It's not the magic that went haywire, it was his guilt.

And the Penance Stare being harmful to him is precisely the point. He needs to show them that he feels a lot of guilt over things he's done so they accept that he's trying to be good (albeit with unconventional methods), the Stare would do that. It's probably one of the only things that could, due to his reputation as a notorious liar. When Cosmic Ghost Rider used it on Thanos, it had no effect, because Thanos didn't give a single **** about anyone he had hurt, he reveled in the pain he had caused, so the Stare caused him no harm. So it's not that 'done bad things' automatically means the Stare is painful, it's the guilt felt over knowing you've caused others pain, which we know is true of Loki... at least to a certain extent. It won't hurt him permanently, he's a god, I think he can handle it, just cause him to demonstrate remorse in a way he can't lie about, which could lead the Avengers to give him a chance. He's got to pay a price for the bad things he's done, suffering the pain of a Penance Stare is the least he can do.

[Rosebunse]

His limits are that stories need to make sense. A good storyteller needs to create an organic and interesting story for it to be effective.

How does he defeat Those Who Sit Above In Shadow? It's not just by flicking them out of existence, but by telling them a story that scares them. In Thor, he doesn't just make things happen, but tells his lies and stories to put people where he wants them. He does clearly have reality warping powers, but those can't come into play because they risk making the story less effective.

I feel like him letting his guilt take over was a sign that he wasn't really that experienced with his powers. It doesn't help that we hadn't really seen him use these powers much before as Old Loki.

Loki definitely has to pay the piper at some point. The issue is that is it enough just for him to feel bad about what he's done? He needs something else bad to happen to him.

In Infinity War, it seems like we're seeing the "in between" world between universes. We also see Celestials. This is interesting because it has often been thought that Celestials are just energy from some other universe and are just wearing suits. We know the Beyonders were able to kill them by going after them all at once. So what can Loki do in this in between world?

[rpmaluki]

I don't see the god of stories is so he can short cut his way to easy wins. That's the worst kind of story. I mean Loki understands that for a good story, he may need to be a villain/loser because the story needs that. It's not about reality warping even if he could do that. Everything has to serve a purpose, not used all willy nilly like cheating.

Ewing may have made him seem OP at the end but that's not great in the long run. Loki went through so much to try and escape his fate by literally jumping out of the story, now this seems more like the story is more important than whether or not he gets what he wants. I think the whole god of stories is simply Loki's increased awareness of the power of stories, the good, bad and ugly. Instead of being stuck as a villain without a choice, he now has the power to choose...sort of. The problem is the rules around this new status haven't been clearly defined so writers are thumb sucking their way through.

[Rosebunse]

I just don't think he was really OP at the end. The truth is, whatever those beings were at the end in Agent of Asgard sort of dug themselves into a very bad place. Loki just knew how to take advantage of that. As for him opening a new into a new reality, that doesn't seem that hard since it's just him skipping ahead a few pages. He didn't need to be in Secret Wars thus it didn't matter what he did.

Also, I think it's far easier for beings to jump around realities than it is for them to really get in the space between. He's also taking advantage of the work Gamora has already done.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there. His powers aren't well defined. Different writers are going to have different ways of using them, which is annoying, and yet, since Loki is the God of Stories, it can be argued that it makes sense that some powers would be better for some stories over others. His powers allow for some wriggle room, for good and for bad.

I don't mind Loki being left in this grey area so long as I get an interesting story out of it. So far, I feel like I have, but as you point out, this can go badly and it is a reasonable turn off for some fans.

[Raye]

But in YA he wasn't the God of Stories yet. There was nothing there that was different about his powers. (if it even grants additional powers) At all. The end of Agent implied that the new title he had given himself gave him new powers, (even if it didn't work out that way) he didn't have anything new about his powers until that moment. All his problems in YA boiled down to guilt and trying to harm himself, because the guilt, at least to the level he was experiencing it, was new, and he didn't know how to deal with it. That he used magic to make his internal crisis real wasn't a fault of him not understanding his powers, it was just his guilt bubbling to the surface in a very tangible way. All the themes came around to guilt and self harm, right down to Wiccan doing the same thing, but in a different way.

And I just really don't like wishy washy self imposed limits, those aren't real limits at all, it's all just an act. I think there has to be tangible, real limits. I mean here and there where he intentionally tries to make things interesting, fine, but if we know that every "limit" he faces is self imposed, and that without those self imposed limits he is basically omnipotent, then we also know that if it really came down to it, he's not in any REAL danger of losing, because he is just putting on a show. He will always give himself room to win, even if he creates the illusion of a struggle. Illusiory struggles don't have the same weight as real ones, as long as we are aware that is the case. And I think the writers that came after realized that, and so really dialed back the whole God of Stories thing. I think Aaron went a bit too far when he essentially stripped Loki if his win at the end, but still.

[rpmaluki]

I loved the issue. I love that he has a clear plan of what he wants and never loses what makes him Loki, a trickster by nature. The GoS is the more complicated part. Back in AoA we tied it to his nature to lie and that turned to him telling stories (knowing the beginning, middle and end), it never really went beyond him actually changing stories (at least successfully), whether it was his own or others. He just had an epiphany of who/what he was and that gave him back a little control over his fate. I think just as he can trick others with magic, he can do so through his lies/telling stories. It's just an extension of what we already know he's able to do but exercised in a more unique way, albeit mysteriously because Loki doesn't have his own book to fully explore this newish ability. It's as relevant as the writer deems fit, like in this story. It only sucks because we really know what is or isn't. From the little we've got, we know at least it's not about him affecting the Marvel universe in so grand a manner like we assumed would be the case at the end of AoA (e.g. Thanos' Snap). It's like he's playing 3-D chess on a universal scale. He knows it's a game, knows the rules but is actually not in control.

I might like that the limits seem self imposed because without them, Loki runs the risk of falling prey to his more terrible selfish nature that's doomed no matter what. It's not like he's Cap with a high sense of responsibility and doing the right thing no matter the situation. That's my head canon anyway because I doubt it's as simple as that. Aaron didn't want to continue with Ewing's GoS angle because it didn't really fit his own plans. It's like he hit the reset button but kept one or two elements from Ewing's tale. Other writers are doing the same (picking other threads Aaron may be ignoring) but it's not coherent because nobody's cared enough to define Loki's true state after AoA. We know Loki is basically swimming against the current trying to stay on this new path he fell upon by accident because we know that was never Old Loki's intentions back in Siege. He's keeping himself reigned in which is honestly a first and I can't help but like it. I want him in control of himself as opposed to out of control.

There should be limits to what Loki can and cannot do as this GoS, the holes in his story thus far implies that there are, they just haven't been put to paper and I doubt they ever will.

[Raye]

I guess I just disagree on a fundamental level there. That he has to struggle to be good, and he is always at risk of falling to his darker nature, is exactly what makes him engaging as a character. That struggle is what makes you cheer him on when he stays on the right path, and be disappointed when he strays. The struggle IS the story, for any character, without genuine struggle there is no story. If he can never fail, then what's the point? It's boring if we know he can never lose.

And I think Ewing left it vague intentionally, because he wanted the writers to follow to determine what it meant. Which is totally fair. But I think he was trying to nudge them in a certain direction, which would have basically made Loki a reality warper, but it didn't really take. I think other writers takes are fairly consistent with Aaron's take for the most part, they just aren't consistent with the very end of Agent of Asgard, I think we just kind of have to let that go, it's obviously not where they want to take him now, that ship has sailed.

Edited to add - i do get that at the end of the day, all limits and struggles of fictional characters are not real, that it is all just an illusion created by the writers, and at the end, more than likely the protagonist will win. (though there are exceptions, particularly with tragedies, but it is uncommon) and I am sure that is part of the point Agent of Asgard was making. But with most stories, there is still the conceit there that from the character's perspective, what they are experiencing is real. From their perspective, the stakes are real, and they believe they may fail, they may die, or whatever, depending on the specific story. That the character believe in the stakes is what allows it to have emotional weight even if we as readers know that the writer is in control and it will probably be ok in the end. Putting that sort of control into the character's hands strips away that conceit that the character believes in the stakes, and really believes they may fail, at least to an extent, which robs the story of its emotional weight. It can work in isolated stories where the point is that you are exploring stories on a meta level, and/or you can make the struggle more internal and emotional because you are focusing very tightly on one character, but if you are dealing with a character in a shared universe that has to be viable long term, it creates problems. Hence dialing things back on both Loki and Gwenpool when they had to be more of a team player and it wasn't all about them and had very meta overtones.

[rpmaluki]

I think we are saying the same thing but differently, or at least seeing it differently. There has to be struggle for Loki and what better way than to give him a little more power. The problem is that this specific power (if it's really that) isn't well defined. We're all just trying to piece it together. I don't think it's meant to be as big a deal as we initially assumed it would be during AoA but at the same time there must be something to it (for him) for it to be mentioned and used, however clumsily. I think what I meant by Loki being in control is like Jim Carrey's Truman. As long as he stayed on the island, ignorant of his fake reality, he wasn't in control. He takes back control when he leaves but that doesn't mean everything is suddenly in his power when he does, only his choices. He's not even in control of the consequences thereafter. I think Loki has a fear of relapsing, that is his struggle.

If this new ability is a legit power up (something we don't actually know for sure), it only makes him more vulnerable because he's susceptible to always wanting his way. If there are limits to it, they are in-story (something he's unwittingly doing). He'll do things like the "not-Kid Loki" duplicate and whatever else to push the story forward (because he now has that knowledge) but that's not him actually exerting absolute power over all stories. He's playing his role on his terms but it's not devoid of possible failure. Chances are he does fail and he does revert back to the one note-villainous Loki from way back when. We don't know and I don't think he knows for sure either .He feels like he was a puppet at the end of someone else's strings and now that he's kind of cut them, knowing things should create a level of surety but there's a lot of uncertainty still.

[Raye]

yeah, he does still struggle on a personal level, and having him have to deal with more power could work.... in a solo book. The problem is, internal struggles mostly work for solo books, and he doesn't have his own book right now, so making his limits and struggles internal doesn't work very well at the moment. While they will deal with it some, any personal problems he has will have to be dealt with in fairly broad terms, because he isn't the sole focus, and there just isn't room to get into it adequately unless he is. It may very well be that he has a complex emotional and moral struggle going on under the surface, and I'm sure some of the writers who get their hands on him are writing with that in mind, (at least, I hope they are) but if we only get occasional glimpses into his head and what he's actually thinking and feeling, then that doesn't mean a whole lot to the average reader. If he does have this new power, (as you said, big if at this point) all we can see is how he uses it in terms of the plot, and not much about what it means to him as a person, everything else we just have to make assumptions about. I mean sure, he gets an occasional spotlight issue or scene, which can shed some light on what he's feeling (and the Penance Stare i mentioned above could do that while still keeping things focused on the team) but as long as it is someone elses book, be it Thor, or Dr Strange or the Avengers as a group, most of that will be very much in the background, or handled fairly broadly. And sure, given his journey so far, its not that hard to infer certain things about his motivations right now, but that depends on having followed his story fairly closely, it's going to be difficult for readers who haven't done that to grasp the subtleties. I mean, ever since AoA ended, we *constantly* see people not understanding what his deal is, because it is so internal, and they can only judge his actions, and they don't understand why and how he's doing them. (hell, while we get the 'why' we are making not much better than blind guesses about the 'how' beyond 'magic' and 'stories' and we're the people who have read everything) And assuming for a second he did whip out some story powers for once, if his limits on that power are all internal and thought based, it would just appear to be hitting a win button, and nothing more.

And just to be clear, i don't have a problem with creating the "Kid Loki" dupe, he's done similar before, long before the God of Stories thing came into play, this line of discussion arose because I took issue with the idea that such a copy of himself would come with his powers at full strength, which i just felt was too much, and makes him invincible. Have it so that one or the other is near powerless as a result of the split, as happened in Young Avengers, or they are both at half power, or something, ok, fine, I'm down with that. I just think that limit should arise from someplace outside himself.

[rpmaluki]

Yeah, without that solo, we'll just have to be satisfied with the crumbs. I can't speak for the general audiences' reception of him, I honestly don't care. I just want him written in a way that encapsulates everything that's gone before regarding his character. It's not enough, especially when we want to know where it's leading and this is what I hate the most about where we are with the character. I really want that book because it would be awesome to dive back into his head. Short of blatant character assassination and regression, I will take the little we are given until Marvel decides to throw us fans a bone.

[Riimi]

I have an inbetween take on the GoS stuff.

First, I don't agree that Aaron's dropped it. Though he hasn't said that Loki's still the god of stories, I think that there have been hints. There were a few of the ones early in (like, the second issue of Thor) where he was leaning on the fourth wall when speaking to Laufey and then when speaking to Jane. If that was all, then I'd argue he dropped it, but there was the whole arc in Avengers. Loki narrated an issue. Loki also invoked past stories to direct the current one how he wanted it to go (I'd argue). Imo, the point was to mirror/recreate the original founding of the Avengers, right down to him being the villain (and them defeating him).

If that was the case, then I approve of Aaron's handling of his powers so far. They're not on the level of Ewing's reality warping. Instead, they require using story tropes and possibly even needing to mirror past (and famous) stories to get the desired result.

(If I'm wrong, then the reappearance of the title comes out of nowhere -- although Duggan did talk with Aaron about Infinity Wars). Also, if this is how he knows everything, then I think his powers are too strong.

With that said, I remain against the level of power he showed in Agent of Asgard. And, however his powers are being used now, they are prime targets for power creep, arguably more so than his power set was before (though magic users of any kind seem to be prone to it).

TL;DR: I'm happy with how his powers seem to be at the moment (although my analysis is based on conjecture), pending the reveal for how he knows so much. If his powers are responsible for his knowledge, then I think they're too powerful. Also, do I bet they'll be abused/increased to ridiculous levels at some point? Yes. But that's comics.

[Rosebunse]

I know we'd all love a solo book, but I'm not sure Loki really requires one. Maybe a one-shot would be better? It's just that Aaron has him and does seem to be using him, then you have Duggan who has basically made him into the star of this GotG event. Of course then there's the Avengers stuff. I fear that a full ongoing would just make things even more muddled.

I have to agree with Riimi a bit here, in that Loki, being a magic user and a reality warper, runs the very, very serious risk of power creep and abuse. I mean, if it can happen to Angel of all characters, it can happen to anyone. Honestly, I don't mind that sort of thing so long as it is used well.

Again, I really don't think he has any new powers, he's just got a new perspective on the ones he already has. I don't think he was that powerful at the end of Agent of Asgard. And I think Aaron didn't drop the GoS bit, he just didn't make it that apparent since Loki wasn't a POV character.

But this all goes back to a deeper issue with Aaron and even Duggan, which is that they just aren't giving us a ton to work with.

You know what would make this Infinity War make more sense? A Gamora and Loki oneshot.

[Raye]

Well, Infinity Wars is ending in one more issue, it was just a mini, so that's not really going to play into his future exposure much at all. Basically he will be in Thor/War of the Realms, Asgardians f the Galaxy, and probably Avengers. Which is a lot for a character, we are lucky in that regard, sure. It's nice seeing him used in some big parts as a supporting character, and how he interacts with his family and other characters in the MU (even if he got off to a bad start with the Avengers). But there are just certain things solo books can do that ensemble books can't in terms of getting into a character's head, which is what i miss from Loki.

I have an inbetween take on the GoS stuff.

First, I don't agree that Aaron's dropped it. Though he hasn't said that Loki's still the god of stories, I think that there have been hints. There were a few of the ones early in (like, the second issue of Thor) where he was leaning on the fourth wall when speaking to Laufey and then when speaking to Jane. If that was all, then I'd argue he dropped it, but there was the whole arc in Avengers. Loki narrated an issue. Loki also invoked past stories to direct the current one how he wanted it to go (I'd argue). Imo, the point was to mirror/recreate the original founding of the Avengers, right down to him being the villain (and them defeating him).

Oh, i actually agree with this. I just don't think that it's quite what Ewing intended with where he left Loki, just judging by what was on the page in the final couple issues of Agent of Asgard. The God of Stories thing is still there in Thor etc. to an extent, but it has been downplayed a fair bit from those final issues of AoA. Remember, those final couple issues had Loki come back acting very.... erratic, and apparently missing most of his memories, and he was all like 'screw you, I'm not going to bother with y'all anymore' to everyone in Asgard. The implication was that he would be getting more of a fresh start with new powers and a whole new personality. (though how Ewing thought that would work with him swearing off any involvement with Asgard, but no solo book, I dunno.) Under Aaron, that got mostly got dialed back, so he's got a lot more of his pre-GoS personality, his ties to Asgard are re-established and he's heavily involved with things there, etc. but yeah, there are elements that were kept.

Honestly, though i have had some quibbles with his appearances in Thor and Avengers, I am glad for this, because personally I am not interested in seeing him being constantly rebooted, I want to follow a more gradual progression of his character. At least the ending was vague enough that it could be fudged without too much trouble. The Avengers thing is just him understanding how stories in the MU generally work, and going with it, which i think is totally fair take on it that doesn't render him OP. Aaron gets a thumbs up from me for Loki... mostly. (i do think the whole Celestial thing was extreme, I don't think he needed to go THAT big to re-form the team, but let's see if there was more to it when he comes back)

[Elden]

I'm so glad the MCU Loki TV series is happening. Wonder how they'll get around his death in Infinity War? So good that they've got Hiddleston back and these shows will apparently more tied to the movies. Hope Sif gets a guest appearance. Was disappointed when she stopped popping up in AoS and wasn't in Ragnarok for even so much as a cameo.