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  1. #4531
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    The power level is why Raye and I have expressed reservations about him being the "God of Stories". Near omnipotence trivializes most conflict. It's possible to do character driven arcs with such characters (for instance, Sandman, which is well worth reading, if you haven't); however, it's difficult to put such characters into teams. Also, such character driven stories are, imo, a contender for the pinnacle of storytelling (another shout-out, this one to Incredible Hulk). Imo, managing such powerful characters is why Strange was nerfed and part of the reason why Odin's a jerk (without trying to get into arguments about whether or not it's consistent with past characterizations). But I'll stop myself from continuing on this subject, we've had discussions on this board about it a few times before.

    My first thought towards the end of the issue was that Thor was going to be so sad once he finds out Kid isn't actually Kid and may not be permanent. I agree Loki did the right thing in going to him for help/to warn him, but ouch.

  2. #4532
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Right. While it is possible to do stories with an uber powerful character it takes a deft hand and and it pretty much restricts them to solo books, and usually results in them being used less. We are never going to see the Endless join a team, aside from themselves, even if most writers didn't have more respect for Gaiman than to do that. It is working her so far because they were playing up if he was really on their side or not, but that question of if they will have to fight him or not can only last so long. This issue did have me asking myself why Loki even bothered with a team if he could do everything he did, his presence and the power level he showed devalues the other characters in terms of what they can contribute. Which may be why they did what they did with Annabelle this issue, to show a character doesn't have to have the most power in order to contribute, but that was a bit undermined in the fact that it wasn't Annabelle herself that was doing everything, it was because Loki was helping her by tricking the Nova helmet. Also, I didn't see anything here that pointed to the God of Stories, it was just magic.

    Yeah, it will hurt Thor to have Kid Loki ripped away, but, to be fair, I don't think that was his intent. If it was his intent to hurt Thor with this, he wouldn't have told "Kid Loki" to stay away from Thor unless things got bad. Also, since he will presumably save Thor next issue, (I mean, not like they are gonna kill off Thor here in a guest appearance, and Loki is the only one around to help him) that will probably soften the blow some. Why he decided on giving it the form of Kid Loki may have come down to simple matters of practicality, maybe his smaller size made him easier to create or something.
    Last edited by Raye; 12-13-2018 at 03:43 PM.

  3. #4533
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Preview for Thor. Seems the Avengers followup is here, rather than, you know, Avengers. As I suspected/hoped he might, T'challa seems to know, or at least suspects, what's up.



    https://www.newsarama.com/43125-thor-8-preview.html

    I really did hope he or Cap would be smart enough to put it together (I know Tony is smart too, but he's tech-smart, not people-smart) So it's good to see he gets it. Sort of. I know we only have this one page, so it's hard to say for sure, but I think he gets what Loki is doing, but not why he's taking the approach he is. The Asgardians of the Galaxy issue, among other things, illustrates that he's acting in the only way he knows people will accept from him, he's doing it with these extreme ways out of necessity as much as convenience or habit. So hopefully someone like T'challa who kinda gets what he's doing

    But this does make the timeline for this particular arc quite clear, which is good, after all the uncertainty regarding both Avengers and Infinity Wars. But given what we just saw in Asgardians of the Galaxy, I am curious how that fits into things. We know Asgardians of the Galaxy spins out of Infinity Wars, and took place concurrently with it, so presumably it takes place before this arc, as well. So we will see what Angela and Valkyrie have to say, considering the little talk there about Loki. Is he responsible for them being captured? would this issue spoil Asgardians of the Galaxy like that?

  4. #4534
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    I do hope this is, in part, setting the stage for him working with the Avengers in the future. Maybe in War of the Realms? Loki is "on Malekith's side", so there's still some ambiguity about his status (meaning that he hasn't been 100% revealed as on the right side in Thor yet) and I have the feeling that the event will make his true colors clear. In fact, the only concern about the event I have is that he's going to be so prominent people there will be backlash.

    Because (and it might be because I tend to extrapolate in Loki's favor), I have a feeling this is going to be a big event for him. Iirc, Jason Aaron said in an interview shortly after AoA ended that he wanted to do something big with him. So far, he's manipulated Celestials into getting the Avengers back together, saved the universe from a crazed, infinity-stones wielding Gamora, stolen said stones, and split a fragment of his psyche to go get another terrifying artifact of doom. And we still have to see how he backstabs Malekith (I think Raye is probably on the right track with disabling the dark bifrost when the forces are split), and I'm guessing he has the infinity stones for the war. So, I know that he wasn't shown among the heroes in the War of the Realms layout, but I think he's got a major part to play.

    Given their talk about Loki, I have a feeling he's going to show up in the issue, but my bet would be in a way that shows his motives in a positive light. After all, right after Freya told Thor that there was more to Loki (don't remember the exact words), they had that arc in Hel.

    I am glad to T'Challa wondering about Loki's motives. I don't think the (not) -Avengers would have listened to him if he'd tried to assemble them another way. So, he's had to resort to villainous methods, and he hates it, as far as I can tell (from some of the artwork in Thor, and also his like, more pissy than usual attitude in the Avengers). I'm happy that part is becoming clearer, since putting the earth in that level of danger was my biggest issue with that arc. Maybe we'll get a full explanation as to why he did it if/when he does work with the Avengers.

  5. #4535
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Yeah, it feels to me like they are trying to put a stamp on his status quo for at least the next several years with everything he has been up to in multiple books this past couple years, spreading it far and wide in heavy hitting important stories so people can't miss the memo. Old Loki is gone, this is the new Loki. (not that certain fans will accept it no matter what, but whatever) and sure, it looked at first like he was the bad guy again, but I think that by the end it will be clear that his intentions were good, even if his actions were not, which is still a big departure from old school Loki. I think that playing villain was likely done intentionally not just because it made logical sense for most characters to not trust him, but to illustrate the difference, even if the reveal didn't come for a while, (to the disappointment of some fans who took his apparent heel turn it at face value, probably. Either fans of Gillen and Ewing's Loki sad to see him go, or fans of old school Loki sad to see it wasn't genuine after the recent revelations) I mean, if Loki has to consciously put on an act I order to achieve old school Loki, and he doesn't enjoy it when he does it, then it is a major sign of changes to his core character. And I think some characters, not all, but some, like T'challa here, Angela, Wolverine, apparently, probably Freyja, hopefully Thor, most likely Squirrel Girl, the Young Avengers and others he has had more positive interactions with, will give him a chance. Hopefully Dr Strange among them so we can get that Midnight Sons book at long last, and more frenemy snark. While others will continue to be highly suspicious of his motives.

    Oh, on the subject of Strange and Midnight Sons. Ok, for those not reading Immortal Hulk, turns out the Green Door and One Below All was a bit more literal than I thought it would be, and the Green Door literally leads to Hell, yep, apparently nuclear bombs can open the gates of Hell itself. And presumably the One Below All is some sort of Satan figure, but can not be Mephisto, due to events in Damnation leaving him locked up in Vegas. It may be that the conspicuously empty throne in JIM is finally going to be occupied. Ewing is usually pretty good about respecting recent continuity shakeups, so presumably Ghost Rider is still ruling over Hell in the story he is telling. This may be why Midnight Sons never happened, it may be that Ewing wanted to use the Ghost Rider and Mephisto situation in his Hulk story. It is interesting that Ewing's story began shortly after Damnation ended, so it may be that for all his evils, Mephisto was keeping this One Below All in check, or something. So it may mean that once the Hell story concludes in Hulk, we can at long last get Midnight Sons. Fingers crossed. This also means that Loki's warning to the Avengers about the Green Door and the One Below All was basically a warning about some sort of mass demonic possession. (cus, surprise, turns out Hulk's powers are not science based at least not entirely, they are caused by a demonic possession, and it appears the demon, or at least the strength of the connection to it, can change, resulting in a change of personality when Hulked out, hence Jennifer switching personalities recently as well)

    Edited to add - which could all lead to this hulked out Loki finally happening:


    Could this have been teased so long ago? Maybe... It does have the fur on the shoulders to mirror the fur collar on his coat, and if you look close, what is left of his pants has the side panels his current costume has. So that hulked out Loki is from a time that Loki is wearing his present costume, more than likely, so... It would be further evidence Loki is working with future knowledge, though. I suspect now that it may come from time travel shenanigans in Infinity Wars. It may be that either Kang or the Time Gem send Loki back to right what went wrong in his own special way. And Loki in Infinity Wars is present Loki, while some, maybe most, of his appearances in the past few years have actually been a Loki from the near future, and we are approaching the point where things merge back together. Maybe.

    Tldr; there may still be hope for Midnight Sons. And Loki will prolly Hulk out soon when the Avengers deal with the One Below All

    But yes, pretty sure Loki will appear in this issue, likely in a way that sheds still more light on his actions. We have had years of obfuscation, now it seems to finally be time for the grand reveal. Or at least the start of it, pretty sure it will hit the peak in War of the Realms. T'Challa even mentions it right here, so this seems to be laying groundwork for the Avengers getting involved in that.
    Last edited by Raye; 12-18-2018 at 02:49 AM.

  6. #4536
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Okay, so he wasn't in the rest of the Thor issue, sadly. oh well. but now i am thinking what if he isn't joining the Avengers, but instead the Agents of Wakanda? that'd keep him out of Thor's way, and seems more up his alley in terms of tactics and such, being sort of a covert branch of the Avengers and all. And of course Black Panther is the one organizing it, and he's the one who figured out what Loki is really up to. I kinda figured that team was just going to be who was on that one Avengers cover, I think it was (aside from T'Challa himself) Wasp, Ka-Zar, Gorilla Man, Odin, and Okoye. But here we have a new member not among that group. How it is presented in this issue and a recent teaser from Marvel, makes me think it's not a team, but more of an agency meant to fill the void left by SHIELD, which could mean there are independent agents doing all sorts of things, and it would be much, much larger than those few members already shown. But at the same time, i kinda think the Avengers team has to go 'double god' at some point.

    He was in Infinity Wars, tho. And like, I was kinda right, but in the most disappointing way possible. He just walked away after seeing the future. Just.... gave up. (and then the series resolves, almost, since they tacked on a whole new issue at the last second, with a truly astounding display of handwaves and asspulls coming left and right, with Adam Warlock filling the role of deus ex machina this time.) And said that he had time traveled to try and stop himself from seeing said future. So there WERE two of him out there all this time, one of them from the future, yeah. Possible it will come into play or be explained with the Wolverine thing, but as it stands here, very disappointing. no one likes to see their fave just give up.

    Solicits are up. https://www.newsarama.com/43180-marv...citations.html
    Not a lot of mention of Loki, but he appears on two covers (though one is "Kid Loki") and is mentioned in one solicit.



    ASGARDIANS OF THE GALAXY #7
    CULLEN BUNN (W) • MATTEO BUFFAGNI (A)
    Cover by JAMAL CAMPBELL
    EGO AWAKES!
    The Asgardians thought they were in trouble when they stumbled upon a planet full of refugees – and that was before the planet started moving. Just what have their newfound allies gotten them into?! And if the planet is this angry…what will its moon do?

    so, not mentioned in that one, but it does kind of spoil that the ominous solicit and cover for the issue before this one was some more misdirection. Team's fine, aside from apparently angering Ego, and Loki's still with them. (though I had kind of assumed Loki Prime would be coming to take the place of "Kid Loki" but maybe after the next book concludes...)



    WOLVERINE: INFINITY WATCH #2 (of 5)
    GERRY DUGGAN (W) • ANDY MACDONALD (A)
    Cover by GIUSEPPE CAMUNCOLI
    Wolverine is the best there is at what he does. But how is he at protecting the universe from cosmic disaster? Would you guess better or worse than Loki, the admitted god of lies? We’re about to find out.
    32 PGS./Parental Advisory …$3.99

    Not a whole lot to go there, nothing new is revealed that we didn't already know, just Loki and Wolverine, teaming up to protect the universe, which apparently involves fighting aliens. Maybe this takes place in the past, tho.

    *edited to add - oh yeah, almost forgot. today's Thor playlist addition, for obvious reasons, I've been saving this one. (even if it is from her Spawn days)



    Playlist now ends with The King Wants You, which seemed fitting for T'Challa recruiting Roz. I suspect I will be using a lot of Avatar Country songs for War of the Realms, since it is all about a big fictional war, so it's a good thing their kickstarter to produce more video content for it was successful
    Last edited by Raye; 12-19-2018 at 11:59 AM.

  7. #4537
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    I really wanted to like Infinity War, but I had no idea what was happening most of the time. What did Loki find?

    I do have my hope in Duggan to clear some of this up in that Loki and Wolverine series, because frankly I feel like he just lost interest in Infinity war early on. It really lacks his normal energy and just feels very by the numbers.

    Now, I do have some questions about Loki in this issue, though. Did he see a future? Or did he just see himself?

    Interesting that we're getting kidLoki this far out. And if Bunn uses him, other writers might too, especially given how well loved JiM is. This is dangerous, but given that this isn't really kidLoki-I think-it's still playing it safe. I mean, now we have two Lokis running around and either of them could be evil, but not both. Oh, then we have the Loki who's possessed by All Black.

    Now, I do want to say that I'm not sure Loki has a power creep problem, if only because I think most writers want him to use more creative solutions and not just write a problem out of the story. We've seen Loki try that repeatedly and it doesn't work for him. Now, some writers might try and over-power him, but they do that with most characters and it's just a risk we take as comic book readers. Not that we have to like it or support it.

    Would T'Challa recruit Loki? Yeah, yeah he would. Now would T'Challa recruit him openly? And to be fair, if he was recruited, you'd then basically need an entire database and team just to keep track of him.

  8. #4538
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    I dunno what he saw, they never showed it. all he said was something like 'so this is how it ends' so i guess he saw the end of the universe, but beyond that, i dunno. And his facial expression was... odd. so I dunno how bad it was, really, because the expression was so vague and weird. hopefully the Wolverine series can redeem the Loki situation some, but I'm very wary about it at this point. I suspect thought hat Loki and Wolverine will be doing some time traveling though.

    I don't think Duggan lost interest, but I do think he bit off more than he could handle, (as happens with big stories like this sometimes) where he just needed too much to happen, so it ended up being resolved in the easiest way possible with unsatisfying handwaves. And looking back, there are also some dropped plot threads that went nowhere, or inconsistencies with earlier issues. It's just.... sloppy.

    And yeah, as long as it's not Kid Loki in mind, it's fine that this new Kid Loki exists. I loved real Kid Loki, but I don't want him to go bad, so i think it's best that he's just dead for real. though having Loki using his face is strange, and probably a bit confusing to some readers.

    I think T'Challa would totally recruit Loki, but i think he'd have to have more than a hunch to actually do it, I think he'd want to look into it some more, and maybe talk to Loki himself, face to face. That may be why Thor was peeved off there, maybe T'Challa asked Thor to set up a meeting. I mean if you need to find Loki, Thor's your best bet, Loki will come to him sooner or later, guaranteed. But as I mentioned, I think it is clear now that this isn't a team, it's an organization similar in scope to SHIELD. So I am sure Loki could be recruited in secret, and he could continue to to the secret agent thing he's so good at, which is beneficial for both parties.
    Last edited by Raye; 12-19-2018 at 01:44 PM.

  9. #4539
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    Lots of writers bite off more than they can chew, but this is one of the worst instances of that I've seen in a while. It just felt very confused.

    And yeah, Duggan probably is leaving a lot of the Loki stuff to give himself something to work with on that Loki/Wolverine book. Granted, that teamup is so weird and random that I'm excited just for that!

    I like Duggan, I do, but it feels like he needs a lot of space for himself to spread out. It wasn't apparent in Deadpool or Avengers, but looking back, that might be because he was able to use game pieces from other series for himself and let other writers take what he gave them. Here it was all him.

    I can totally see the kidLoki thing being confusing. We sort of get it because we spend so much time analyzing his powers, but it's still a bit confusing. I think quite a few writers may just decide to use him as kidLoki. Of course, we don't know how different he acts from kidLoki, not really, especially since we can't see inside his head.

    Good point on T'Challa probably asking Thor to get Loki for him. That might also explain why he was so mad, because Loki is just another reminder that he failed in his mind.

    I am a little iffy on if T'Challa actually wants to replace SHIELD or if he is going for something smaller and more intimate. SHIELD was still a part of the US government and while Wakanda might have some great resources, unless they hire back a bunch of SHIELD agents, they are going to have to use members like Loki and Angela and superheroes who don't mind working outside of government regulations.

  10. #4540
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    I mean, I noticed fro the very first appearance, where he had all of 2 panels outside the Destroyer armor, that he acted differently than the real Kid Loki, even if we don't have his thoughts, there is plenty on the page to show that he's much more manipulative, deceptive, secretive, and dismissive of others. Kid Loki was a sweetheart with a mischievous streak, this is a manipulative little shit. So he definitely acts quite a bit different, and I think people will get that, but if they're jumping in for the second arc or something, I'm wondering if they just think Bunn i writing him out of character or something. I guess it worked in Young Avengers tho.

    I think the Agents of Wakanda will be smaller than SHIELD, you don't build an organization of that scale overnight, and Okoye said they were not trying to recreate it, that they would be doing things differently. But at the same time, it is the closest comparison I can think of. I mean, they have a freaking helicarrier, and snazzy black uniforms for it's agents, and gave Roz a new flying car. And I think it's definitely on the large side, even if it's smaller than SHIELD, I'm sure there must be hundreds of members, if not thousands. I do question naming the organization after a single country though, if it is supposed to be more of a global thing, even if it was T'Challa's idea. But that may be the point. Though I know SHIELD technically was an international organization, it did definitely come across as primarily a US thing. What did that look like from other countries perspective, that what was essentially the world police was also kinda a US thing, you know? So attaching it to Wakanda helps you look at it from a different perspective. and that could make some sense with the themes of nationalism in Avengers.

  11. #4541
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    I agree that Infinity Warps was rather disappointing. I mean, I was especially disappointed with Loki's arc, but he's my fave. Still, after having such a role throughout the story, for him to just leave was a bit of a letdown. Also, it looks like I'm probably wrong about him having the Infinity Stones for the War of the Realms. I think that was a miscalculation on his part, unless he wouldn't have been able to save the universes using the stones himself (though that would have rendered the presence of everyone else kinda moot, and thus also be problematic from a story standpoint) Honestly, he should have waited until after they fixed everything, and then grabbed the stones (imo). But I would have probably ended it there, without him meeting the Celestials, and then covered that in the Infinity Watch book.

    Also, although lately he's been written as pretty dismissive across several comics lately (Asgardians of the Galaxy, Avengers, Infinity Wars, and even his appearance in Marvel Knights) I still think he's exceptionally dismissive in Infinity Wars. Calling everyone snivelling worms? At least, I hope that's not going to be his characterization moving forward.

    I like the idea of him being an Agent of Wakanda (and also thought that the name was interesting--it probably is due to Aaron's political commentary). I wonder if BP will keep his recruitment a secret (though I bet he wants more information on him before he goes about recruiting him, he guessed at Loki's motives but didn't seem sure). I imagine him being a deep cover agent at first, especially if it's before/during the first part of War of the Realms, but I hope the rest of the ream eventually knows, if nothing else. Also, him working with his dad O.o. That could be...interesting. Very interesting, actually, from a plot standpoint. I do see him at least coordinating with BP on the War of the Realms, even if he's not officially recruited, since T'Challa is willing to listen. But I think the issue starting with BP mentioning him and then later recruiting Roz points towards recruiting him.

  12. #4542
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    Good point about the Agents of Wakanda name sort of playing off of SHIELD. It does make you look at what SHIELD did and wonder why we were OK with that, but we question T'Challa and Wakanda. Why shouldn't a country like Wakanda want a bigger piece of the pie? It seems to me that Aaron is saying that the US and the Avengers took for granted their assured places in the world and that was a mistake. You can say the same for Asgard in Thor.

    Aaron's Avengers and Thor are much more political than many fans have given them credit for. It's funny, because on other forums and threads, so many readers are lauding him for "not being political" now, for going back to the status quo.

    OMG seeing Loki and Odin have to work with each other in a professional capacity would be funny. Even in the best of times, I'm not sure Odin could work with any of his kids as equals.

  13. #4543
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Part of me hopes the Wolverine thing will help fix things, and a teamup with Wolverine could be fun, normally. But another part of me just thinks it should just be left alone to fade away, and just let Aaron do his thing without having to worry about what Duggan does with Loki and Wovlerine. War of the Realms is his big finale, let it happen without any obstacles. Not like Infinity Wars amounted to anything much for Loki in the end, really, so why drag it out? Yeah, Asgardians of the Galaxy spun out of it, kinda, but it seems more connected to the War of the Realms, really, it's just that Nebula ended up as the bad guy because of Infinity Wars, other than that it's not really connected, and it would work with some other villain in her place.

    And yes, he has seemed rather dismissive under some writers, but especially in Infinity Wars. And I hope it's not going to be a big thing going forward. I preferred how Cates handled him in Dr Strange, where he still came off as arrogant, which I think he always will be, and he was still manipulating people, but not in the same way, and when he got mean and snippy there, you could at least understand why. And he also did some nice things to make up for things that had gone wrong, like bringing Bats back. I really hope Cates takes over Thor after Aaron.

    Assuming for a second that Loki really is is being targeted for recruitment to the Agents of Wakanda, I'd imagine that it would be in both Black Panther and Loki's best interest to keep his recruitment a secret, at least until War of the Realms is over. But it does seem T'challa is thinking (correctly) that the War of the Realms will be a big deal, and is recruiting some people who will have some knowledge of it, from Odin to Roz, so him targeting Loki for recruitment if he did seriously think Loki was trying to help them would make sense. I think he'd want to keep him on a short leash though, which I don't think Loki would take well to. If there is one thing that has always been consistent about Loki, it's that he likes to act on his own. But i do think Loki could be valuable to them, even after War of the Realms concludes, and i think that even if he doesn't like it, it would be good for Loki to have some guidance in that way. Wakanda is a country based largely on science and technology, and that's going to be where the bulk of members will be from, so i'd imagine it will have a strong science and tech bias. If they want to cover all bases, it would be in their best interests to get at least one magical expert on board. And speaking of Odin, I think that even though they will both technically be a part of the agents of Wakanda, it's likely a large enough organization that they won't have to work together directly, which is probably for the best. They may not even be aware that the other has been recruited. I mean, Roz was a SHIELD agent, but that didn't mean we ever saw her interacting with Maria Hill or whoever else. There will likely be sub-groups and independent agents.

    And yeah, there is a fair bit of pretty blatant political commentary in Avengers, i'm kind of baffled that some are not seeing it.

    edit - wait, wait... had a thought. in Marvel Knights, Black Panther is playing a fairly major role, at least towards the end of the series, and we saw Loki involved there earlier, in a way that suggested he may be returning, since he was one of the few to have regained his memories. So maybe that will be where they kinda cross paths and Black Panther can do his recruitment? I mean sure, he may have also asked Thor, but if Loki just happens to cross his path, may as well, right? Especially if Loki is also trying to help undo the mind fuckery, and T'Challa can see that, which could support his hunch that Loki is trying to help in a weird way. A bit of a long shot, but you never know. Depends on when Marvel Knights fits into things. If it takes place after this issue Thor, but before War of the Realms, though, it could work.
    Last edited by Raye; 12-21-2018 at 05:17 AM.

  14. #4544
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    It would be nice if it did.
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