Loki Appreciation 2018

[cosmicjoke21]

Well, the thing is, we have trouble identifying AoA Loki and Siege Loki as the same character; they look different, have different priorities, different affections and different moralities. The Loki who cries because Thor doesn't love him anymore at the end of AoA #10 can't be the same as old asshole criminal Loki.

And you can make an argument that they aren't the same person. AoA Loki has Siege Loki's memories, but his emotions seem to be those of Kid Loki. And he's suffering for stuff that his previous, asshole self did.

Also, Loki has had a long, well-written redemption story, unlike Iron Man, who basically erases his memories and enters the room saying "I don't remember all the horrible things that I did to you, so you have to forgive me! Friends?"

This, exactly. Again, I don't think it's at all fair to pin old Loki's crimes on AoA Loki. Not if you're also not going to pin them on Kid Loki especially. Since they're all, technically, the same person.

And I agree with Riimi, punishing Loki at this point isn't going to accomplish jack. It's only going to further the likelyhood of the Asgardian's sealing their own demise at Loki's hands. Loki's already sorry, he's already remorseful and guilt-ridden about everything. The right thing to do would to be to try and help him, but of course, I doubt he's going to get that from the Asgardian's. It's Verity who I think is going to be a major factor in Loki coming through this ordeal and finding himself in a better place. Thus far, she's proven herself to be his best and only friend, as Loki himself calls her.

[Darkspellmaster]

Bear in mind with Wanda it was a case of a mental breakdown that caused her actions, but the hatred on her in a lot of ways I think is misplaced. Tony is a whole 'nother situation. I think he and Loki share some qualities in that Tony does embody some of Loki's hubris for ego and thinking he's far to clever for his own good. Tony's also recently got the whole "I'm not the son I thought I was" thing going on, so there's that. The difference comes in Tony likes to think, even when he's wrong, that he's right. He needs that sense of "I know I'm the best" because of who he is. Loki on the other hand knows his mistakes now and is willing to own up to him, even when he was the Loki of Siege there were points when he even had to admit some sort of foul, and he's admitted he's in the wrong before during the course of the different versions of him. Not all the time, and never to this degree that AoA has, but there were points when he did some what see the error of his ways, and slightly did admit them.

Loki, at least as he was before, tended to bite things off in bigger pieces then he could handle, as was the case in Siege. The funny thing is that even his classic Norse self had the issue where trouble started and he was the go-to to clean it all up. (See the myth of the famous Ring from Norse Myths.) The thing with Marvel is that when Loki first came about, he wasn't AS bad as he became in later incarnations. A number of his tricks ended up causing trouble, but there were cases where the worst he did was turn a city into candy. It's only been more recently that we've seen him go darker and darker, and one reason seems to be attention from Odin. He wants to know that he's loved, and wants to one up his "Golden" brother. AoA Loki has grown from that, (heck one could even say AoA Loki seems to have started out towards the tail end of the 90s -I can site the fact that he willingly stood up for and 'suprisingly' protected his then wife Sigyn when Thor found out she had destroyed on accident Donald Blake in an attempt to blackmail Odin into freeing him, and only after various changes in writers did we get the schemer that wanted to eventually change to what he is now), and we know that he wants the change.

The thing about the crimes is that he wanted a rebirth, and he got it, which lead to his old personality not willing to let go. Because, let's face it, in a way that means that he, oldLoki, was dead and he refuses to leave this world. I think the OldLoki in some ways fears the unknown, as does the other parts of Asgard. Look at Thor in regard to his now being no longer the God of Thunder. What does he do? Lashes out, not only at Loki but at others. He's frustrated because his role is no longer his, it's the new Thor's. Most Asguardians seem unwilling to change, Loki though prefers this, why? Because he's chaotic. Being a decent good person doesn't mean he looses that Chaotic nature, but I think his older-self fears this more then anything. He likes his role, he wants to keep it that way. I have a sense that OldLoki is not just the remnants from Loki himself, but rather the remains of what others see him as. Outside of the All Mother, Loki, and Odin, who's actually seen OldLoki? Could it be that this OldLoki is made up of also the memories that others willingly want Loki to be? Lines about the Roles that people play are a huge factor in this story, along with Thor as of recent.

Right now Asgard is actually needing to question who they are as a unit, and Frejya seems to be of the belief that they should fit what they know. Odin, on the other hand, seems to be rejecting that notion something Thor is coming to grasp with himself. If he's not Thor then who is he? AoA Loki is something that they're worried about because he doesn't fit the mold that they're used to. Remember when the Kid came back he was treated the same way by everyone save Thor at the time, and even with Thor he was viewing him from a role that he felt Loki needed to play in a way. AoA's Loki rejected that and is actively trying to rewrite himself and how others see him. I have a feeling that Odin probably isn't going to punish him so much as use him as a means of dealing with OldLoki, someone that he can't trust. He seems to trust AoA Loki far more and I have a feeling that he realizes that This Loki is the one that needs to be around, but he can't do much due to the power that Frejya has right now and he can't let her see his plans (whatever that maybe).

And yes I agree that Verity will play a huge role in helping him. I wonder though, if there is this OldLoki! future version, could their be another that is happy and satisfied out there? The future is never set in stone, stories are always being changed, rewritten and altered. So if there's one version of Loki out there that turned into the Monster in the cell, could there be another that actually broke the cycle that he was in and became some what of a heroic person? I'm not saying being like Thor, but more along the lines of someone that you can trust but also has the edge to him?

Someone speculated to me that Thor might be Sigyn? Though I have my doubts on that.

[Raye]

You know there's something wrong when Scarlet Witch and Ironman get more hatred than Loki of all people. A lot of their worst moments came when they were either mind controlled or insane, while Loki is just, well, Loki. Maybe he's quite a bit mentally unstable and not quite there, but he's fully aware of what he's doing and knows it's wrong. He wasn't forced to practically rape Sif by stealing her body. No one forced him to make Osborn go about with Siege, and while he's bound by story to bring about Ragnarok, he wasn't bound by it then, nor when he sold Asgardians to Doom for experimentation.

How can you blame Thor for just being so sick of it when he's already got so much on hos plate as it is?

And can we please discuss how horrible Siege Loki's plan really was? He set up Siege, which even if he felt slightly bad, it still lead to wanton death and destruction. Then, he kills himself, which makes Thor very depressed. And then he ressurects himself as an amnesiac child, who goes through literally burning hell to redeem himself for acts he doesn't even remember. And through all of this, he created another version of himself and left it up to him to kill the child version of himself and leave him with the mess.

As some have mentioned, the fact that we have watched Loki try to redeem himself all this time goes a long way. We have gotten like 30 issues of him dealing with his guilt over what happened in JIM, between Young Avengers, Agent of Asgard and the Tenth Realm. Not all the issues dealt with it heavily, but it was always there, and it was what was motivating him. He maybe hasn't always done the best job of being a better person, but he is trying, and we know he is being genuine when he says he does not want to be a villain any more. As Darkspellmaster says, I think the hatred of Wanda is a bit misplaced, but in any case, both her and Stark's 'redemption' for the bad things they've done have been pretty flimsy. Rather than actually deal with it, Tony wiped out his own memories to try and pretend it never happened and absolve himself of responsibility for it. While what Loki did was similar in a way, i think he has now reached the point where he will be held accountable for his actions and I think he accepts that, even if he was hoping to delay it because it will suck. It is a lot easier to cheer someone on who has done bad things but acknowledges that and is making genuine attempts to be better than it is to cheer someone on who refuses to accept responsibility and just wants to brush the past under the rug and pretend it never happened. I think this is part of the reason I am so adamant about this Loki being held responsible for everything he's done, and that includes before his death. The whole murder weapon thing always struck me as a pretty flimsy excuse, him trying to absolve himself of guilt, and I am hoping he's at a place now where he won't do that any more. He's got to suck it up, take his punishment, and try and move forward.

And yeah, Siege Loki's plan to be better but hinging on first committing some more evil acts was.... questionable at best. I think it's largely just that that's just what he knew how to do. But i do think he gets that now, after watching Kid Loki. He did learn a lot from Kid Loki. I don't think that was part of the original plan, exactly, but he did.

[king of hybrids]

change, and resistance to it; have been a common theme throughout the asgard books:

odinson - the obvious loss of mjolnir; but also asgard's abandonment of earth
angela - her refusal to
valkyrie - ignoring the all-mother's orders to reform the valkyinor
loki - again, obvious
sigurd - seeking to escape the fate awaiting him
freyja - refusing to go back in the kitchen now that odin is back
frost giants - even if they can see that its their "survival of the fittest" mentality thats killing them; their tired of their role as a dying race of cannon fodder

[Raye]

Loki, at least as he was before, tended to bite things off in bigger pieces then he could handle, as was the case in Siege. The funny thing is that even his classic Norse self had the issue where trouble started and he was the go-to to clean it all up. (See the myth of the famous Ring from Norse Myths.) The thing with Marvel is that when Loki first came about, he wasn't AS bad as he became in later incarnations. A number of his tricks ended up causing trouble, but there were cases where the worst he did was turn a city into candy. It's only been more recently that we've seen him go darker and darker, and one reason seems to be attention from Odin. He wants to know that he's loved, and wants to one up his "Golden" brother. AoA Loki has grown from that, (heck one could even say AoA Loki seems to have started out towards the tail end of the 90s -I can site the fact that he willingly stood up for and 'suprisingly' protected his then wife Sigyn when Thor found out she had destroyed on accident Donald Blake in an attempt to blackmail Odin into freeing him, and only after various changes in writers did we get the schemer that wanted to eventually change to what he is now), and we know that he wants the change.

I think Loki, as with some of the other more sympathetic villains of the MU (like Doom or Magneto) is very much depending on the writer just how evil he is. So there will always be stories where you get the sense that he wasn't so bad, then another writer comes along and decides he needs to kick some puppies to get his villain cred back. Also, the general tone of the comics has gotten darker, and he along with them. So... he has been sympathetic in the past... but he's also done some hugely evil things. And as fans, we just have to kinda reconcile that... But yeah, since he has had moments in his past where he has been handled in a more sympathetic manner, it is a bit easier to accept his desire for change now. To think that he truly regrets his more evil acts.

The thing about the crimes is that he wanted a rebirth, and he got it, which lead to his old personality not willing to let go. Because, let's face it, in a way that means that he, oldLoki, was dead and he refuses to leave this world. I think the OldLoki in some ways fears the unknown, as does the other parts of Asgard. Look at Thor in regard to his now being no longer the God of Thunder. What does he do? Lashes out, not only at Loki but at others. He's frustrated because his role is no longer his, it's the new Thor's. Most Asguardians seem unwilling to change, Loki though prefers this, why? Because he's chaotic. Being a decent good person doesn't mean he looses that Chaotic nature, but I think his older-self fears this more then anything. He likes his role, he wants to keep it that way. I have a sense that OldLoki is not just the remnants from Loki himself, but rather the remains of what others see him as. Outside of the All Mother, Loki, and Odin, who's actually seen OldLoki? Could it be that this OldLoki is made up of also the memories that others willingly want Loki to be? Lines about the Roles that people play are a huge factor in this story, along with Thor as of recent.

This is always true of trickster gods, they are traditionally agents of change in systems that are resistant to it, so it's good to see Loki fill this role again. It's a bit ironic, though, that he has to return to his roots in order to be an agent of change.

And I still think King Loki IS from the future... sort of. He has displayed too much future knowledge to be the product of Loki's own mind, or the minds of the other Asgardians in the present.

Right now Asgard is actually needing to question who they are as a unit, and Frejya seems to be of the belief that they should fit what they know. Odin, on the other hand, seems to be rejecting that notion something Thor is coming to grasp with himself. If he's not Thor then who is he? AoA Loki is something that they're worried about because he doesn't fit the mold that they're used to. Remember when the Kid came back he was treated the same way by everyone save Thor at the time, and even with Thor he was viewing him from a role that he felt Loki needed to play in a way. AoA's Loki rejected that and is actively trying to rewrite himself and how others see him. I have a feeling that Odin probably isn't going to punish him so much as use him as a means of dealing with OldLoki, someone that he can't trust. He seems to trust AoA Loki far more and I have a feeling that he realizes that This Loki is the one that needs to be around, but he can't do much due to the power that Frejya has right now and he can't let her see his plans (whatever that maybe).

I don't know about how much Odin wants change. The thing is that when the All-Mother took over they DID change things. Odin wants things to go back to how he did things before they took over. So what he wants is a change from the current setup, but it is a regressive sort of change. What Freyja really wants is a sense of security, a promise of an ideal future, and King Loki is giving that to her. She wants some certainty that everything will work out as she wants, but it means everyone has to play her game, not their own. This chafes Loki, he wants to break free of his role but her plan won't allow that to happen.

I think what really needs to happen is that everyone needs to stop worrying so much about what Asgard or Loki SHOULD be, and trying to force them to be something, whether is is stuck in the past or looking towards the future, and just deal with what they ALREADY ARE right now. That's not to say they can't change things they don't like, or work towards a better future, but it has to be done with an eye to where they are now, not where they came from or some ideal of where they want to be.

And yes I agree that Verity will play a huge role in helping him. I wonder though, if there is this OldLoki! future version, could their be another that is happy and satisfied out there? The future is never set in stone, stories are always being changed, rewritten and altered. So if there's one version of Loki out there that turned into the Monster in the cell, could there be another that actually broke the cycle that he was in and became some what of a heroic person? I'm not saying being like Thor, but more along the lines of someone that you can trust but also has the edge to him?

It's definitely possible. Before the whole incursions thing began, how the MU multiverse worked was that every possibility happened in some universe, of which there were and infinite number. so yeah, in some alternate universe, Loki totally got to be a good guy. Of course... that Loki or Lokis is now likely dead, since the multiverse is collapsing and there are currently less than 2 dozen universes left. :-/

Someone speculated to me that Thor might be Sigyn? Though I have my doubts on that.

I think Sigyn is just wishful thinking from whoever guessed that. She is clearly not an Asgardian, and Jason Aaron has said that whoever is under that helmet is a character that has appeared in God of Thunder, and Sigyn has not. So I think the only real choices are Roz Solomon and Jane Foster, I lean towards Roz.
*edited to add - Also, ladyThor kissed dudeThor in issue 4. if Sigyn, that's her (ex, but still) husband's brother she just kissed out of the blue.... NOT COOL.

[Raye]

so, anyway.... I was thinking today, about what King Loki has actually accomplished, and I think I am starting to get an idea of what his plan may be.... at least generally.

In issue 5, he said that he was trying to bring about his future as quickly as possible, right? So that means some version of the events that have happened so far must have happened in his future, but later. I'm sure they probably happened differently, in terms of specifics, but broad strokes. He says, with Gram sticking out of him so he can't lie, that he is not trying to change the future, exactly, just speed it up. So what has he really accomplished so far? Mainly, he's gotten his younger self to admit what happened to Kid Loki, and it's looking like that may result in him taking a little trip to Jotunheim. This alone does not accomplish anything more than making his past self suffer, but over in Thor, we have Malekith obtaining Laufey's skull in order to cement an alliance with the Frost Giants as he gears up for a war of the realms. Now, THESE events King Loki never meddled in, as far as we are aware. All this stuff with Malekith and Laufey is happening on it's original schedule. Only now Loki is in Jotunheim BEFORE Laufey is resurrected, while in the original timeline, he must have arrived in Jotunheim (assuming he did end up there) afterwards. And that may be what King Loki was after all this time. This is the big difference, and why the timeline had to be sped up, get Loki there as Malekith makes his big move with Laufey. What if it is actually the aftermath of this war of the realms that Malekith is up to that resulted in the eventual unity between the realms? Maybe Loki needs to become king of the Frost Giants to end the war, or something? Maybe that's why King Loki was pissed about accidentally averting the war with the angels? Because he thinks there needs to be war for him to get what he wants? But war is destructive, Midgard may be a casualty in the war if it goes on too long. So by speeding things up, specifically getting Loki to Jotunheim where it appears a lot of this will be centered, and maybe making the war last not long enough to do as much harm... golden future is realized, AND Midgard is saved? I am not sure if saving Midgard is part of King Loki's plan, he may just want to kill Laufey again as soon as possible or something, but it could be what the current Loki does with the situation.

[Rosebunse]

I love you guys, but that's too much for me to quote LOL

You know, all this discussions brings up a very important point. What has made this whole thing work? What's the one thing Loki has that Wanda and Tony don't? Writers with a doable direction? Competent editors? The love of a company that wants him to succeed? Tom Hiddleston? All of the above? Well, whatever it is, it's working, because Loki's journey of redemption/search for acceptance/trying to pull himself out of a century's rut has been a wonderful, interesting, and heartbreaking one. Can we just appreciate all the writers and artists and editors and staff who have done the impossible by giving us this story that just shouldn't have ever happened?

More on to the rest; I think Odin is in an odd place. His favorite son is going through a crisis, he's dealing with loss of his power to his wife, one daughter's abduction and the other's betrayal, and then there's Loki. With everything that's happened, who wouldn't want to go back to simpler times? It's the time with Freyja. With Ragnarok, life was easy. Sure, Loki's lot sucked, but there was safety in it, even for him.

[Rosebunse]

so, anyway.... I was thinking today, about what King Loki has actually accomplished, and I think I am starting to get an idea of what his plan may be.... at least generally.

In issue 5, he said that he was trying to bring about his future as quickly as possible, right? So that means some version of the events that have happened so far must have happened in his future, but later. I'm sure they probably happened differently, in terms of specifics, but broad strokes. He says, with Gram sticking out of him so he can't lie, that he is not trying to change the future, exactly, just speed it up. So what has he really accomplished so far? Mainly, he's gotten his younger self to admit what happened to Kid Loki, and it's looking like that may result in him taking a little trip to Jotunheim. This alone does not accomplish anything more than making his past self suffer, but over in Thor, we have Malekith obtaining Laufey's skull in order to cement an alliance with the Frost Giants as he gears up for a war of the realms. Now, THESE events King Loki never meddled in, as far as we are aware. All this stuff with Malekith and Laufey is happening on it's original schedule. Only now Loki is in Jotunheim BEFORE Laufey is resurrected, while in the original timeline, he must have arrived in Jotunheim (assuming he did end up there) afterwards. And that may be what King Loki was after all this time. This is the big difference, and why the timeline had to be sped up, get Loki there as Malekith makes his big move with Laufey. What if it is actually the aftermath of this war of the realms that Malekith is up to that resulted in the eventual unity between the realms? Maybe Loki needs to become king of the Frost Giants to end the war, or something? Maybe that's why King Loki was pissed about accidentally averting the war with the angels? Because he thinks there needs to be war for him to get what he wants? But war is destructive, Midgard may be a casualty in the war if it goes on too long. So by speeding things up, specifically getting Loki to Jotunheim where it appears a lot of this will be centered, and maybe making the war last not long enough to do as much harm... golden future is realized, AND Midgard is saved? I am not sure if saving Midgard is part of King Loki's plan, he may just want to kill Laufey again as soon as possible or something, but it could be what the current Loki does with the situation.

You're right, it's all just been to hasten Loki's involvement in Jotunheim.

Now, why is the question. Is this just to kill Laufey? Is it to save everyone because of what happened in his own timeline? Is someone prompting him? Forcing him? Or is he really just an old man who's been driven mad by what he couldn't prevent the first time it happened? The why is what you can't know. All of them sound like they could work. However, King Loki just seems so malicious and cruel. It's hard to believe that he's doing all of this out of the goodness of his heart.

But I'm think, you guys know the cover with what we think is King Loki eating AoA Loki? What if that isn't King Loki, but what if it's supposed to be Siege Loki? Is it too much to ask if the cover is supposed to be about the sacrifice Siege Loki expected his later incarnations to make?

[ROSA13]

As some have mentioned, the fact that we have watched Loki try to redeem himself all this time goes a long way. We have gotten like 30 issues of him dealing with his guilt over what happened in JIM, between Young Avengers, Agent of Asgard and the Tenth Realm. Not all the issues dealt with it heavily, but it was always there, and it was what was motivating him. He maybe hasn't always done the best job of being a better person, but he is trying, and we know he is being genuine when he says he does not want to be a villain any more. As Darkspellmaster says, I think the hatred of Wanda is a bit misplaced, but in any case, both her and Stark's 'redemption' for the bad things they've done have been pretty flimsy. Rather than actually deal with it, Tony wiped out his own memories to try and pretend it never happened and absolve himself of responsibility for it. While what Loki did was similar in a way, i think he has now reached the point where he will be held accountable for his actions and I think he accepts that, even if he was hoping to delay it because it will suck. It is a lot easier to cheer someone on who has done bad things but acknowledges that and is making genuine attempts to be better than it is to cheer someone on who refuses to accept responsibility and just wants to brush the past under the rug and pretend it never happened. I think this is part of the reason I am so adamant about this Loki being held responsible for everything he's done, and that includes before his death. The whole murder weapon thing always struck me as a pretty flimsy excuse, him trying to absolve himself of guilt, and I am hoping he's at a place now where he won't do that any more. He's got to suck it up, take his punishment, and try and move forward.

And yeah, Siege Loki's plan to be better but hinging on first committing some more evil acts was.... questionable at best. I think it's largely just that that's just what he knew how to do. But i do think he gets that now, after watching Kid Loki. He did learn a lot from Kid Loki. I don't think that was part of the original plan, exactly, but he did.

I don't think it's at all fair to pin old Loki's crimes on AoA Loki. it yes that's right:: Why There Will Always Be A “Double Standard” ? BECAUSE kID LOKI IS SWEET ?

[Raye]

You're right, it's all just been to hasten Loki's involvement in Jotunheim.

Now, why is the question. Is this just to kill Laufey? Is it to save everyone because of what happened in his own timeline? Is someone prompting him? Forcing him? Or is he really just an old man who's been driven mad by what he couldn't prevent the first time it happened? The why is what you can't know. All of them sound like they could work. However, King Loki just seems so malicious and cruel. It's hard to believe that he's doing all of this out of the goodness of his heart.

But I'm think, you guys know the cover with what we think is King Loki eating AoA Loki? What if that isn't King Loki, but what if it's supposed to be Siege Loki? Is it too much to ask if the cover is supposed to be about the sacrifice Siege Loki expected his later incarnations to make?

I guess it depends on how much of his 'evilness' is an act (or written into his 'character' if my theory is correct about him not being real) and how much is genuine. Like, what if future Loki knew that if he went back in time with a warning saying Loki had to do this and that... would he? probably not. But if he makes Loki think he's got to fight against him, he can herd him (and the rest of Asgard) down a path of his choosing. Then again, he may just be evil and is after chaos... but it seems like an awful lot of trouble to go to to just speed up some events. But yeah, we have very little to go by for the why, aside from the fact that the future is a hellhole, which could provide motivation IF he wanted to fix it.

and I dunno, while King Loki and Siege Loki's costumes are similar, there are differences, King Loki has white fur, while Siege had brown, King has 2 large rings at his hips, sige had several around his waist, King's costume is all black and green, Siege had a brown band around the middle... That cover is King Loki.

I don't think it's at all fair to pin old Loki's crimes on AoA Loki. it yes that's right:: Why There Will Always Be A “Double Standard” ? BECAUSE kID LOKI IS SWEET ?

We have gone over this and both sides were unable to convince the other... but no, it's not cus he's sweet, it's cus Kid Loki had none of old Loki's memories or experiences past childhood, nor did he have the same personality, so Kid Loki is not a continuation of the Loki that did all those bad things. This Loki is. He remembers EVERYTHING the old Loki did, and has the same personality. Or started with it when he was Ikol, anyway. He's been working to change since then, but still, just because a person changes doesn't make them blameless for their past actions. That's why I blame this Loki but not Kid Loki, it has nothing to do with how cute Kid Loki was.

[ROSA13]

I guess it depends on how much of his 'evilness' is an act (or written into his 'character' if my theory is correct about him not being real) and how much is genuine. Like, what if future Loki knew that if he went back in time with a warning saying Loki had to do this and that... would he? probably not. But if he makes Loki think he's got to fight against him, he can herd him (and the rest of Asgard) down a path of his choosing. Then again, he may just be evil and is after chaos... but it seems like an awful lot of trouble to go to to just speed up some events. But yeah, we have very little to go by for the why, aside from the fact that the future is a hellhole, which could provide motivation IF he wanted to fix it.

and I dunno, while King Loki and Siege Loki's costumes are similar, there are differences, King Loki has white fur, while Siege had brown, King has 2 large rings at his hips, sige had several around his waist, King's costume is all black and green, Siege had a brown band around the middle... That cover is King Loki.



We have gone over this and both sides were unable to convince the other... but no, it's not cus he's sweet, it's cus Kid Loki had none of old Loki's memories or experiences past childhood, nor did he have the same personality, so Kid Loki is not a continuation of the Loki that did all those bad things. This Loki is. He remembers EVERYTHING the old Loki did, and has the same personality. Or started with it when he was Ikol, anyway. He's been working to change since then, but still, just because a person changes doesn't make them blameless for their past actions. That's why I blame this Loki but not Kid Loki, it has nothing to do with how cute Kid Loki was.

still Double Standards and it is unfair just because he has the memories of old Loki does not mean he HE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR for old Loki´s bullshit !
this Loki is not the old Loki , he is innocent. he the has the same personality but he is his own person !! He has the memories But AOA Loki didn't commit the crime.

[Raye]

And we are just going to go around in circles again if we go down this path. But to me, having the same personality and memories means he IS THE SAME PERSON, because as I see it, personality + memories is what makes a person. So I really can't see that it is a double standard. The new body is completely irrelevant to me, especially considering he is a shapeshifter anyway, so the forms he takes does not have as much influence on who he is. Ikol may have technically been a copy, but if he was identical to the old Loki, it's just splitting the finest of hairs at that point.

Consider Star Trek style teleporters. Those are basically cloning machines. They don't move you from place to place, they disassemble (kill) a person, and make a perfect copy at the destination. Is a criminal going through a teleporter instantly absolved of all their crimes because they're debatably not the same person any more, but a copy of the original? To me, It's like if old Loki got teleported, just... not right away. Ikol was like the pattern that's stored in the Enterprise's computer, and it's not until he gets uploaded into Kid Loki's head that the 'teleportation' is complete. If we continue with the star Trek analogy, it's like a bit of foreign data got mixed in with the Ikol pattern, but to my mind it's not enough to absolve the current Loki of responsibility for things his old self did.

We did this before, at great length, and no one was able to convince me otherwise, I'm pretty firm on this belief, so that's the last I am going to say on it.

[Rosebunse]

I always hated the Star Trek transporters when I realized what they were. I didn't even need the internet for that one, just a long car ride to a relative's Christmas Party.

But I think the part about Ikol/AoA Lokihaving some of his "data" corrupted by kidLoki is a good way of looking at it. It doesn't in anyway absolve him of what he's done, but it does point to the fact he's change, though if we follow through with the analogy, that doesn't mean he's changed by choice. It's more as just something that happened with the spell, or, in many ways, a karmic punishment. If it wasn't for his huge guilt, this would be a very, very different story.

Anyone else want to see the Loki from Earth X? I remember someone mentioned him a few pages back, and I think he would be a good person for AoA Loki to talk to, even if their origins are a bit different.

[Habis]

I always hated the Star Trek transporters when I realized what they were. I didn't even need the internet for that one, just a long car ride to a relative's Christmas Party.

But I think the part about Ikol/AoA Lokihaving some of his "data" corrupted by kidLoki is a good way of looking at it. It doesn't in anyway absolve him of what he's done, but it does point to the fact he's change, though if we follow through with the analogy, that doesn't mean he's changed by choice. It's more as just something that happened with the spell, or, in many ways, a karmic punishment. If it wasn't for his huge guilt, this would be a very, very different story.

Anyone else want to see the Loki from Earth X? I remember someone mentioned him a few pages back, and I think he would be a good person for AoA Loki to talk to, even if their origins are a bit different.

I did. I said that it would be interesting to know how would Loki react to the fact that his counterpart freed himself by entirely eschewing his identity as Loki.

People say that he wouldn't want that, that he wanted to be remain himself, but at this point I'm not sure there is much left he feels attached to...

By the way, I also come to hate the Stark Trek teleporting machine from the second I learned how it worked. It kills the person who uses it. It reminds me of some story I read about a similar device (this version teleported people from one planet and from star system to another) that malfunctioned and everytime it was used, it created a copy of the same person (always the same person; the same dude coming out of the machine, one after another) at the destination point, regardless of who was desintegrated at the enter point, making everybody realize that all the people who had ever used the machine was in fact a copy of the dead original one.

[ROSA13]

Guys, We Have to Talk About Siege Loki. He is really dead The Suicide Death of Siege Loki :Thor's brother is dead.he wanted to die and aoa loki is " His last thought ":