Avengers 43 *Spoilers*

[dragonmp93]

Then Steve was obligated to go after them without those resources, if he truly thought that the Illuminati even planning and preparing for those kinds of actions was so wrong that he needs to hunt them down forever. Even if the world community was fully behind the Cabal rather than just scared to try to do anything about them, that would just make them as bad as the Nazis and not anybody Steve would work for.

If his ethics are consistent with regard to things that are wrong for one party, being wrong for anybody, of course.

So is better to die like that than follow the survival instinct ?.

If the world community agrees to genocide, that doesn't make it not genocide... so any heroes who agree with Cap that the ends (of preserving the universe for a little while) don't justify the means (blowing up Earths) would have to disregard any governments taking that approach. To say that they feel obligated to obey any non-interference with the Cabal agreement is to say that if those same governments started up concentration camps or just randomly shooting citizens, they'd go along with that too.

It's funny that NOW Steve has something against that, especially after what happened in AvX and having the Scarlet Witch as a teammate.

[JaggedFel]

Gave Earth 2 Hours? Bad Move. Should have offered to evac humans that might at least split the base.

[vitruvian]

So is better to die like that than follow the survival instinct ?.

According to Steve, yes. After all, if he didn't feel that way, he wouldn't have opposed them building the bombs in case they had to blow up some alternate Earths, would he?

If he's willing to fall in line with the world governments and allow the Cabal to do this, then his initial argument against the Illuminati has become invalid. If it was wrong for Reed, Tony, and the others to even contemplate this, it's at least as wrong for the UN to tell him he has to allow it to actually be done.

It's funny that NOW Steve has something against that, especially after what happened in AvX and having the Scarlet Witch as a teammate.

What genocide occurred in AvX, other than the flooding of Wakanda? And if you're thinking of Decimation, while Steve wasn't going to allow the X-Men to grab Wanda and put her on trial on an island with no functioning justice system, he certainly never either ordered or condoned the depowering, death, or genocide of mutants.

[AntoninoC]

As I recall, Steve says he has every intention of going after the Cabal when he is able. At the time, the Cabal is protected, the Illuminati are not so he goes after the target he can reach, rather than the one he cannot.

And that is exactly what he does, isn't it? Once he made a truce with the Illuminati, he joined forces with them to take care of the Cabal.

Besides, the Cabal has Thanos, two of his lieutenants, and a Herald of Galactus, is isn't like he and Captain Marvel could have just walked up and taken them out, he needed resources and allies.

[Rosebunse]

As long as this isn't like Namek's bizarre three hour, three minute destruction, I'm fine.

[dragonmp93]

According to Steve, yes. After all, if he didn't feel that way, he wouldn't have opposed them building the bombs in case they had to blow up some alternate Earths, would he?

If he's willing to fall in line with the world governments and allow the Cabal to do this, then his initial argument against the Illuminati has become invalid. If it was wrong for Reed, Tony, and the others to even contemplate this, it's at least as wrong for the UN to tell him he has to allow it to actually be done.



What genocide occurred in AvX, other than the flooding of Wakanda? And if you're thinking of Decimation, while Steve wasn't going to allow the X-Men to grab Wanda and put her on trial on an island with no functioning justice system, he certainly never either ordered or condoned the depowering, death, or genocide of mutants.

Well, given that AvX was about the Phoenix coming to Earth to fix the M-day, and now that i think about it, he has been quite consistent in his approach, it's better to (let someone) die than to (let them) follow the survival instinct.

As I recall, Steve says he has every intention of going after the Cabal when he is able. At the time, the Cabal is protected, the Illuminati are not so he goes after the target he can reach, rather than the one he cannot.

And that is exactly what he does, isn't it? Once he made a truce with the Illuminati, he joined forces with them to take care of the Cabal.

Besides, the Cabal has Thanos, two of his lieutenants, and a Herald of Galactus, is isn't like he and Captain Marvel could have just walked up and taken them out, he needed resources and allies.

And Iron Man is proof of that.

[Orbus]

Steve tried to beat Terrax with his cane. That sounds like he was very much opposed to what the UN allowed the Cabal to do but was literally powerless to do anything.

As has been said he was planning to go after The Cabal after he had gathered enough power to do so. That being said I do think aspect has been handled rather messily. I thought that Steve would have had a different plan that simply hunting down the Illuminati and putting them on trial.

Obviously as a head of SHIELD he's bound to follow the order but I was hoping that while he was angry and wanted to make them pay he wanted to catch them so as to get them to work with him to end the Incursions before any other agency could catch them and would lock them up. Obviously Hickman had different ideas.

[vitruvian]

Well, given that AvX was about the Phoenix coming to Earth to fix the M-day, and now that i think about it, he has been quite consistent in his approach, it's better to (let someone) die than to (let them) follow the survival instinct.

Not to argue about AvX rather than the present event, but no, Steve's actions were all about ensuring the survival of everybody on Earth, which he believed meant stopping the Phoenix... which was in fact burning every planet it came across, so that was a valid concern. Of course, he wasn't attempting to kill anybody in order to save others... it was Wolverine that tried to kill Hope, and he didn't approve in that case, either, so you could say that he was consistent about the ends not justifying the means.

If you mean the expected mutant extinction, I don't know that due consideration for the survival instinct of mutants really required Steve to deal with issues of either aging or fertility planning, just actual impending violent death, so he wasn't really under any obligation to weigh the possible rebooting of X-gene positive births over the seemingly likely fiery destruction of everybody.

He probably should have had an Avengers squad on constant stand-by to go help out the X-Men in case of Sentinel or Purifier attacks, though.

[vitruvian]

Steve tried to beat Terrax with his cane. That sounds like he was very much opposed to what the UN allowed the Cabal to do but was literally powerless to do anything.

As has been said he was planning to go after The Cabal after he had gathered enough power to do so. That being said I do think aspect has been handled rather messily. I thought that Steve would have had a different plan that simply hunting down the Illuminati and putting them on trial.

Obviously as a head of SHIELD he's bound to follow the order but I was hoping that while he was angry and wanted to make them pay he wanted to catch them so as to get them to work with him to end the Incursions before any other agency could catch them and would lock them up. Obviously Hickman had different ideas.

Steve is kind of the last guy who would feel bound to follow an immoral order, don't you think? That's more the line of his original opponents...

[dragonmp93]

Not to argue about AvX rather than the present event, but no, Steve's actions were all about ensuring the survival of everybody on Earth, which he believed meant stopping the Phoenix... which was in fact burning every planet it came across, so that was a valid concern. Of course, he wasn't attempting to kill anybody in order to save others... it was Wolverine that tried to kill Hope, and he didn't approve in that case, either, so you could say that he was consistent about the ends not justifying the means.

If you mean the expected mutant extinction, I don't know that due consideration for the survival instinct of mutants really required Steve to deal with issues of either aging or fertility planning, just actual impending violent death, so he wasn't really under any obligation to weigh the possible rebooting of X-gene positive births over the seemingly likely fiery destruction of everybody.

He probably should have had an Avengers squad on constant stand-by to go help out the X-Men in case of Sentinel or Purifier attacks, though.

Well, as Cable saw in X-sanction, and just like in Time Runs Out, thanks god not a lot of people listens to him, otherwise he would end up getting everyone killed.

[vitruvian]

Well, as Cable saw in X-sanction, and just like in Time Runs Out, thanks god not a lot of people listens to him, otherwise he would end up getting everyone killed.

Guess you missed the part where Hope wasn't ready to receive the Phoenix and the world would have burned had nobody listened... oh, never mind. This wasn't settled in the old threads, we won't settle it here.

In the present story, I actually agree to you that if everybody had listened to Steve from the beginning and sincerely sworn they wouldn't even make contingency plans involving blowing up the other Earth, the most likely outcome would have been the destruction of the 616 universe a good while back, most likely during the blue Mapmaker Incursion where they first used the bombs he was telling them not to even think about. It's not certain, as they surely had other resources they could have drawn upon and Steve wouldn't have objected to blowing up an already dead world, nor do we know whether Incursion zones from completed Incursions were being saved and assembled into Battleworld yet at that point... but in principle, we are in agreement on that point.

The thing is, Steve's argument was never a practical one concerned with consequences, he was just insisting that as a matter of unalterable moral law it was wrong to blow up a planet full of innocent people, no matter the reasons behind it, or even the fact that if you didn't do so they'd die within 8 hours anyway. And since his argument wasn't about consequences but based on an absolute moral dictum, it doesn't make sense that his attitude should change in the slightest once it's the Cabal rather than the Illuminati and the UN giving them the go ahead, or at least telling SHIELD (not that we know how he ended up in charge there either) not to interfere with them. The (moral) stakes being so much higher in this instance than during Civil War, he should if anything have been far more inclined to rebel against the governments saying it was acceptable to let the Cabal commit genocide unhindered, than he was to fight in the streets for the right of superheroes to stay masked and under their own control.

[davew128]

Maybe, I don't believe that's a valid criticism of Hickman's plot though. The same could be said of any unjust situation, couldn't it? Why don't the Avengers, Fantastic Four, and the X-Men just depose and arrest Dr. Doom? Regardless of whether or not they agree with it, heroes in the Marvel universe tend to hold themselves, at least superficially, accountable to international law. If the world community has agreed to allow the Cabal to do their thing, the standards by which the heroes have traditionally held themselves still apply.

Well the FF once went after Doom to remove him from power without any type of world or government sanction and it didn't go over well with SHIELD. The Avengers arrested Doom but they had sanction.

[Tony Stark]

Just got to read it and I really enjoyed it. Glad the spotlight shined back on Tony. I really dug the conversation between Steve and Reed about Tony and how Tony sees things. Looking forward to seeing what Tony has planned.