The Moral Limit and Supervillain Redemption

[Crimson Knight]

During the Axis event, both super heroes and villains alike were affected by a phenomenon that caused them to be the inverse of their personality. Most of them were returned to normal except Tony Stark, Alex Summers and Sabretooth.

Ah, interesting. You say Axis - that's separate to AvX then, yes, Avengers Versus X-Men?

That is indeed interesting.

What's the story with Alex, actually?

[Agent Z]

Ah, interesting. You say Axis - that's separate to AvX then, yes, Avengers Versus X-Men?

That is indeed interesting.

What's the story with Alex, actually?

Yes, Axis is separate from Avengers vs X-Men.

[Crimson Knight]

Yes, Axis is separate from Avengers vs X-Men.

Ah, interesting, thanks. What's the basic premise, actually?

[Agent Z]

Ah, interesting, thanks. What's the basic premise, actually?

It's a bit complicated. I'll post the wikipedia summary so you get an idea

"March to AXIS"[edit]
Magneto[edit]
Magneto enters the island of Genosha to find that it had turned into a concentration camp for mutants. He frees two mutant girls who tell him that Red Skull is responsible and possesses Professor X's brain. Magneto attacks Red Skull, but is quickly stopped by the Skull's S-Men.[2] Magneto is captured and telepathically tortured by Red Skull. He is given visions of those closest to him suffering while being unable to do anything to stop it. After being freed by Scarlet Witch, Rogue, and Havok, he bites down on a vial beneath his skin of Mutant Growth Hormone, giving himself enough power to fight.[3]

Uncanny Avengers[edit]
Havok, Rogue, and Scarlet Witch are captured by the Red Skull's S-Men and sent to his concentration camp in Genosha. Rogue (who still has Wonder Man inside her) is able to break the group free. They discover Magneto has been captured, and free him, as well. The three want to leave the island and alert the rest of the Avengers and X-Men of what Red Skull is doing, but Magneto says he's going to stay and fight. Before they can do anything, Red Skull appears.[4] Red Skull now has the group mind-controlled. He plans on using Scarlet Witch's power to shape reality in his image. He tells Magneto to bow if he wants his daughter to remain alive, but Magneto performs a sneak attack enough to break Red Skull's control over the others. In a fit of rage over finding mutants being used for freak medical experiments, Magneto kills the entire S-Men team. Magneto then attacks Red Skull, all while Skull tells Magneto that Professor X's greatest fear was him leading the X-Men. Magneto kills him, while the others look on in horror. Magneto believes everything is over only for Red Skull to reappear as a giant called Red Onslaught.[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AXIS_%28comics%29

[CSTowle]

I chuckled like a 12 year old after reading "Rogue (who still has Wonder Man inside her)". And boy, that sounds as awful as it looked.

[Agent Z]

I chuckled like a 12 year old after reading "Rogue (who still has Wonder Man inside her)". And boy, that sounds as awful as it looked.

Speaking of Rogue. she's definitely an example of this trope done right.

[Tracer Bullet]

This really bothers me in tv shows, because often when a villainous character becomes popular they rarely have the balls to kill them off and instead try to redeem them. That's fine if the character hasn't crossed a moral boundary the heroes have stood against, but when they have it's just insulting as a viewer. Regina in Once Upon a Time slaughtered hundreds of people. She killed her own dad, tried to kill her mother, murdered her husband and faced almost no consequences for it. She's an awful human being who is being written like all the sins she committed should be washed away. Spike on Buffy the Vampire Slayer became irredeemable the moment they had him attempt to rape Buffy. Why did they write that scene if they were just going to pretend it was a minor incident later in the show? It was shot in a way that made it violent and realistic in a way you'd find in more traditional(non supernatural/scifi) drama. I could never look at the character the same way again.

[Conch22]

With Spike, they tried to use the loophole of him being a different person when he got his soul afterwards.

Unlike Angel, where there is a very clear difference made to the point of it seeming like split personalities, Spike seemed more or less the same, just more burdened. He even addresses it directly of why she can't kill him after all the heinous things he's done. His conclusion is she "likes men that hurt her". Buffys is that he can be a better man (cuz of the soul).
They also had a whole routine of having Spike mind controlled and then taunted by an apparition that looked like Buffy while being tortured and Buffy saving him, likely to drive home the gravity of what he'd done and that Buffy was a better person (even though she became very narcissistic as the season progressed and needed to get knocked down a peg to get some perspective and find her way back to herself).

It also seemed somewhat Watchmen inspired, the dynamic between Buffy & Spike that followed season 6.

I do agree that near the end of the series where they had Spike & Buffy platonically sharing the same room to sleep in it was very hard as a viewer to overlook what happened a year prior. A point was made repeatedly of how unhealthy their relationship was so I don't ascribe normal relationship behavior to it (and they become increasingly codependent as Buffy is alienated from her friends).

Not trying to sound like an apologist for the season, I'm just a fan and there were levels to the journey afterwards put in place as to not be tone deaf (but still have a level of inappropriateness and shock factor, which playing it too safe would be bad drama)

[t hedge coke]

Given how the guy has an alibi for everything it would have been pretty easy for him to make the heroes just look like bullies.

Is saving face more important than preventing a multiple murderer, terrorist, rapist, liar, cheat and scoundrel unimpeded access to nuclear arms, standing armies, and national welfare?

What good are superheroes, if they're response to an absolute, sadistic monster having the highest office in American politics is to shake his hand and smile for the cameras, then whine about it privately? Or, if all it takes for them to not publicly report major crimes is that, well, the person committing them probably has his alibi all sorted?

Sensible in real life politics. Disappointing in DCU superheroes, for me.

[harashkupo]

The Shield had me constantly rooting for Vic even though he was a corrupt cop that brutalized criminals and civilians alike plus murdering another police in cold blood.

[Agent Z]

Is saving face more important than preventing a multiple murderer, terrorist, rapist, liar, cheat and scoundrel unimpeded access to nuclear arms, standing armies, and national welfare?

What good are superheroes, if they're response to an absolute, sadistic monster having the highest office in American politics is to shake his hand and smile for the cameras, then whine about it privately? Or, if all it takes for them to not publicly report major crimes is that, well, the person committing them probably has his alibi all sorted?

Sensible in real life politics. Disappointing in DCU superheroes, for me.

Um, when did Luthor rape anyone?

Hey, I don't like how Luthor gets away with so much crap either.

[Agent Z]

This really bothers me in tv shows, because often when a villainous character becomes popular they rarely have the balls to kill them off and instead try to redeem them. That's fine if the character hasn't crossed a moral boundary the heroes have stood against, but when they have it's just insulting as a viewer. Regina in Once Upon a Time slaughtered hundreds of people. She killed her own dad, tried to kill her mother, murdered her husband and faced almost no consequences for it. She's an awful human being who is being written like all the sins she committed should be washed away. Spike on Buffy the Vampire Slayer became irredeemable the moment they had him attempt to rape Buffy. Why did they write that scene if they were just going to pretend it was a minor incident later in the show? It was shot in a way that made it violent and realistic in a way you'd find in more traditional(non supernatural/scifi) drama. I could never look at the character the same way again.

In Regina's case, she's shown repeatedly trying to atone for what she's done and her previous actions are constantly getting brought up by the other characters so who she used to be isn't completely forgotten.

[Conch22]

Um, when did Luthor rape anyone?

Hey, I don't like how Luthor gets away with so much crap either.

What lex did to Lana in the sixth season of Smallville could easily be considered a sex crime

SPOILERS BELOW

Co opting the help of a doctor to fake Lana's pregnancy (complete with her being given hormones on the sly and a fake ultrasound image of their would be child. All of this was in the interest of persuading Lana to marry him, as he felt she would otherwise turn him down without that sense of parental obligation to sway her. This is incredibly twisted and would undoubtedly be considered a sex crime if there was a precedent (unless there is which wouldn't be especially shocking to me)

About the most prudent example I could think of

[t hedge coke]

What lex did to Lana in the sixth season of Smallville could easily be considered a sex crime

SPOILERS BELOW

Co opting the help of a doctor to fake Lana's pregnancy (complete with her being given hormones on the sly and a fake ultrasound image of their would be child. All of this was in the interest of persuading Lana to marry him, as he felt she would otherwise turn him down without that sense of parental obligation to sway her. This is incredibly twisted and would undoubtedly be considered a sex crime if there was a precedent (unless there is which wouldn't be especially shocking to me)

About the most prudent example I could think of

Off the top of my head, we've seen him high-pressure women into sex or sexual situations using deception and intimidation at least in two stories, one involving an offer of a large sum of money to humiliate a working class woman, another a woman showing him up in front of employees, an evening alone, and a next day of her utterly destroyed and much quieter. There are Elseworld examples, for that, but in the main universe, the whole Matrix thing is uncomfortably close if not actually a sex crime.

Luthor also, however, was visibly unnerved by the offer of being "first in line" with Supergirl, in Final Crisis, because different writers write Luthor differently.

Current-continuity Luthor... I have no idea about the breadth of his crimes, really. It was sort of weird to see him rush in, during the Damian resurrection storyline, as if Batman's just got Luthor, Wonder Woman, and Cyborg on speed dial.

[Tracer Bullet]

With Spike, they tried to use the loophole of him being a different person when he got his soul afterwards.

Unlike Angel, where there is a very clear difference made to the point of it seeming like split personalities, Spike seemed more or less the same, just more burdened. He even addresses it directly of why she can't kill him after all the heinous things he's done. His conclusion is she "likes men that hurt her". Buffys is that he can be a better man (cuz of the soul).
They also had a whole routine of having Spike mind controlled and then taunted by an apparition that looked like Buffy while being tortured and Buffy saving him, likely to drive home the gravity of what he'd done and that Buffy was a better person (even though she became very narcissistic as the season progressed and needed to get knocked down a peg to get some perspective and find her way back to herself).

It also seemed somewhat Watchmen inspired, the dynamic between Buffy & Spike that followed season 6.

I do agree that near the end of the series where they had Spike & Buffy platonically sharing the same room to sleep in it was very hard as a viewer to overlook what happened a year prior. A point was made repeatedly of how unhealthy their relationship was so I don't ascribe normal relationship behavior to it (and they become increasingly codependent as Buffy is alienated from her friends).

Not trying to sound like an apologist for the season, I'm just a fan and there were levels to the journey afterwards put in place as to not be tone deaf (but still have a level of inappropriateness and shock factor, which playing it too safe would be bad drama)

How it was handled the following season was really inconsistent. Sometimes it would hang over their interactions with Spike showing guilt, or in the presence of other characters who found out(Xander & Dawn). Other times the writers seem to ignore it making it seem like they were just awkward exes. Even rape aside, everything about their relationship was abusive and unhealthy(on both sides). The fact that Spike is more or less the same with or without a soul just made it more egregious. Yes, he feels guilty for all the bad things he's done to people, boo hoo, poor him. They try to make him sympathetic in the situation. How do his victims feel, Buffy being the most relevant? She excuses and defends him, and brushes it aside, blaming herself. That is like 12 kinds of fucked up, and really terrible for a show that tries to promote a feminist message.