Dan Slott on the "real" MJ

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Here's Ta-Nehisi Coates about that same era:

By the time I got into Marvel comics Peter Parker was a grown man. He had gotten out of high school, dropped out of college, was poor and had this weird romantic tension with Mary Jane. (It culminated in marriage) Flash Thompson has gone from his tormentor to best friend. Gwen Stacy and the Green Goblin were dead. And all of New York City hated Spider-Man's guts.

This is the Gang Wars/Beyonder/Kraven's Last Hunt era. Tom DeFalco and Ron Frenz were gods to me. Spider-Man, at that point, was unlike any superhero I'd ever encountered. You can't really make that Spider-Man movie. Those stories are rather rootless and bizarre. But I loved them.

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertai...er-man/259297/

[Prof. Warren]

IT matters if people are using that as justification to write it off and justify OMD which is what others have done. Hence the continuous barrage of lies, misrepresentations, fabrications from Brevoort, Quesada, Slott and others. If the Anti-Marriage side are not going to be honest, accurate, and correct, and the other side is, then it matters.

Well, this isn't life or death. There aren't actual lives in the balance and this is less a matter of arguing facts so much having differing opinions on works of fiction.

One side isn't more right or correct than the other. It's not like this is a court case where a final ruling is made based on evidence.

It's just stories. And stories can be read and interpreted in various, equally valid, ways.

And something being rushed doesn't invalidate it.

No. But can it affect the reading experience? Yes, sometimes.

Anyone who read Spidey month to month back then will tell you that the return of MJ and the build-up to the marriage was rushed.

As Erik Larsen said in an interview for Back Issue magazine: "The marriage in the comics was pretty abrupt because, at the time, the two hadn't even been dating and MJ had refused Peter's proposal some years earlier. Their reconciliation and following nuptials came out of left field. In the span of four issues they went from not even dating to being married. It seemed forced - and it was - to coincide with the wedding in the newspaper strip."

And from Spidey editor Jim Salicrup: "I thought (the marriage) was a great idea, but if I had to do it all over again, I would have liked a couple of years to build up to the main event. While Peter Parker was with Mary Jane in the comic strip all along, they had virtually broken up in the comics."

Your argument that the backstory and stuff was done specifically to make her Mrs. Spider-Man is false is what I'm trying to say. She was already significantly altered and changed before the wedding proposal and issue. It happened independently of that development as literally every writer involved said that.

Salicrup again, talking to Back Issue in 2007: "It's too bad that the Spider-Man graphic novel, Parallel Lives by Gerry Conway and Alex Saviuk, is out of print, as that's where we made the case for MJ as the woman destined to be Mrs. Peter Parker."

The popular version of MJ is the complex, three-dimensional and slightly neurotic and troubled character of that era and not the one from before.

The latter version of MJ is the one that enjoyed the most attention.

She went from a supporting cast member to a principal player. Obviously that version would be the more popular, more widely known one.

There isn't. Everything that can be said on the topic has been said and repeated ad nauseam.

I concur. It gets dreary, rehashing this stuff.

Just when I was starting to enjoy this subforum again OMD takes over. Please, mods lock these old threads as I want to be able to talk about other subjects rather than things being dominated by multiple ongoing OMD discussions.

I back this motion.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Well, this isn't life or death. There aren't actual lives in the balance and this is less a matter of arguing facts so much having differing opinions on works of fiction.

You can still have issues with the marriage as others do and not say stuff like backstory was invented for the marriage and she came back into the comics in the issue before the comic. You are making it sound as if Peter suddenly hooked up with Amy Powell or Deb Whitman or some rando girl and not the most important supporting character in the comics in the issues leading to the marriage.

Anyone who read Spidey month to month back then will tell you that the return of MJ and the build-up to the marriage was rushed.

Again MJ had returned long before that in #241, and it wasn't rushed since she was written out and came back 40 issues later. Why are you still clinging to this idea that MJ was absent between ASM#192-290. That is demonstrably false.

Salicrup again, talking to Back Issue in 2007: "It's too bad that the Spider-Man graphic novel, Parallel Lives by Gerry Conway and Alex Saviuk, is out of print, as that's where we made the case for MJ as the woman destined to be Mrs. Peter Parker."

Parallel Lives was a compilation that abridged and welded different moments together in a single form. It's a great digest and everything but all it does is confirm and reinforce the stuff that was already done well before that, only do it in a manner that is linear and makes sense.

Something similar was done with Marvel Saga #22 which was curated by Peter David and which was a scrapbook of panels from across their history arranged linearly. Actual panels with some captions on top. That actually was the main reason why Jim Owsley/Christopher Priest got angry. Since PAD used panels from Spider-Man V. Wolverine #1 to show them getting closer, when Owsley intended it to communicate that it was an impossible relationship, and against his wishes, S-M. V. Wolverine was converted into a Peter/MJ story.

And you know that same issue you cite has Tom Defalco and Ron Frenz discussing MJ and what they did with the character and how they hadn't planned for the wedding at the time they did that. Better yet, why don't you go and read the issues I talk about. They are Stern and Defalco's best work.

The latter version of MJ is the one that enjoyed the most attention.

She went from a supporting cast member to a principal player. Obviously that version would be the more popular, more widely known one.

Mary Jane was always the most popular of Peter's love interests. She appeared in the 1967 Spider-Man Cartoon in the Season 3 episode, an adaptation of the comic where Kingpin fronted a club where she worked at. In that, get this, she's a niece of Captain Stacy. The joke is that this episode aired in 1970 when Gwen was still alive, so that's one indication of how much more popular she was over Gwen. Mary Jane also appeared with Peter in the first ever inter-company crossover and bestseller: Superman vs. The Amazing Spider-Man where she and Peter are paired and contrasted with Clark and Lois and that basically elevated them to the same status. And the issue ends with them going on a double date. She appeared in those Hostess commercials, she appeared as a supporting character in early issues of Miss. Marvel, in Mavel Team-Up where she was inhabited by Red Sonja, and in those Electric Company comic tie-ins with the Thanoscopter.

There's a reason no matter how many times they wrote her out of the books, MJ came back a better and more irreplaceable character than before.

[Snoop Dogg]

The bit in this video where he talks about Remender and Norman cracks me up.

[Mister Mets]

19 off-topic posts were deleted.

In addition, 23 posts were deleted from a discussion about comments Quesada made on twitter last year.

A handful of posts from that discussion were moved to this thread, as it covered Slott's comments on MJ, and the timing of certain character revelations, rather than anything to do with Quesada's twitter comments.

[boots]

yup. saw that coming but couldn’t stop.

[Prof. Warren]

You can still have issues with the marriage as others do and not say stuff like backstory was invented for the marriage and she came back into the comics in the issue before the comic. You are making it sound as if Peter suddenly hooked up with Amy Powell or Deb Whitman or some rando girl and not the most important supporting character in the comics in the issues leading to the marriage.

She wasn't the most important supporting character in the comic in the issues leading up to the marriage. That's why it seemed so out of left field.

And if you say "but no, she was!" I can only say that, as a reader at the time, that wasn't my impression and I'm not alone in thinking that.

And MJ's backstory was expanded on for the purposes of fleshing out her character. While we may have already known her parents had divorced, the details of her past were not fully known.

Again MJ had returned long before that in #241, and it wasn't rushed since she was written out and came back 40 issues later. Why are you still clinging to this idea that MJ was absent between ASM#192-290. That is demonstrably false.

While MJ may have reared her head again, she hadn't been what I would consider a major component of the book for a long time.

And you know that same issue you cite has Tom Defalco and Ron Frenz discussing MJ and what they did with the character and how they hadn't planned for the wedding at the time they did that. Better yet, why don't you go and read the issues I talk about. They are Stern and Defalco's best work.

I have read them. I already know all these comics.

And in that Back Issue that looks back on the marriage with a roundtable discussion with Spidey creative personnel of the era, it's stated by many that there was resistance to the idea of marriage (like Ron Frenz), along with some who were very enthusiastic about it. But of course everyone went along with it because that's their job - to implement the decisions of the publisher and make it work.

Mary Jane was always the most popular of Peter's love interests.

There's no way to determine who was more popular at every point in the entire history of the book. To claim MJ was always the most popular is just bias talking.

There's a reason no matter how many times they wrote her out of the books, MJ came back a better and more irreplaceable character than before.

Yes, there's definitely a reason. It's because Gwen's dead. MJ was the only viable love interest left from Stan's era (Betty could never be a romantic partner for Peter again). That's why she rose to prominence.

Not denying MJ's popularity or the good work done in building her up but a great part of her star eventually rising was because she was literally the last girl standing.

[Mister Mets]

I had come across this thread before and passed it. But there's a new thread (https://community.cbr.com/newreply.p...9439&noquote=1) discussing the return of the marriage in which I discussed inaccuracies and mistatements made by Quesada, Brevoort and others to justify the Post-OMD status-quo. So that led me to think of this one. I think I will post on this, rather than "Thread Drift" that one even if it is "necro".

For new readers, here's the video from OP relinked. (With relevant timestamps being 51:00 runtime onwards).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euj7...tu.be&t=51m15s

All I can say about his comment about MJ and the marriage removing MJ's "spark". is "Astonishing, every word in that sentence is wrong".

The biggest problem for me is that Slott, self-proclaimed authority on Spider-Man, says that MJ's backstory about why she was a party-girl was introduced to explain her after the marriage removed her of the "spark" she had during the Romita years. I don't know if this is because he only read Parallel Lives (a comic he has a bizarre fixation on, and which he entirely misreads but that's a separate issue) but I have to say,

Here's the timeline of MJ's backstory and the people who introduced it:

-- Marv Wolfman during his run, in the issues where he broke Peter and MJ up, specifically ASM#191-192 (which has a fateful date Peter makes with MJ as a "last resort to save the relationship" which he doesn't make and which leads MJ to walk out)...has MJ voice in thought bubbles that her parents were divorced, and that she's not a fan of Betty and Ned Leeds marriage, and that doesn't inspire confidence in commitment.

-- After Wolfman removed MJ, she was gone for some 40 issues (barring one brief appearance where Peter's new replacement crush Amy Powell runs into Peter and her meeting in the street, leading Powell to slut shame her because...male writers) until Roger Stern brought her back in ASM #241-242. It was Roger Stern who wrote the outline of MJ's backstory. He said that MJ's origins hadn't been touched on and he wanted to explain why Aunt May believed she was a match for Peter. He worked on that backstory with his wife, a college professor, and they modeled it on a number of female students. The first appearance of MJ's sister Gayle and her past is in ASM #246 ("The Daydreamers", the single best comic Stern ever wrote).

Neither Wolfman nor Stern expected or believed that Peter and MJ should be married. Wolfman broke up Peter and MJ out of a dislike for the character. Stern liked MJ as a character on the other hand. But in either case, the people who created MJ's tragic backstory were precisely the ones who liked MJ as a party girl. Roger Stern more than anyone is responsible for making readers believe that MJ and Peter were perfectly matched and right for another. An irony or joke he still doesn't get but that's writers for you.

-- Tom Defalco took over from Stern and when he wrote the MJ Trilogy (ASM #257-259), he borrowed Stern's outline (with his blessings) and added in that "MJ knew Peter's identity and figured it already". And he and Frenz wrote MJ as a more serious, slightly sad, loyal friend for Peter, unable to move on from him but hesitant about starting a relationship again, while Peter is in a dead-end relationship with Black Cat who is secretly in cahoots with the Foreigner to welsh Peter. In fact Defalco/Frenz's MJ in their run is very close to Kirsten Dunst's portrayal as a more serious, sad and jaded version of the character. By contrast, PAD who worked in Spectacular, actually did write MJ as a more salty, funny, and sassy gal pal, as did David Michelinie in Web.

So basically, if Slott has problems with MJ's backstory...that's fine but it's not the fault of the marriage, it didn't happen for the sake of the marriage, and the people who wrote it weren't all in favor of that anyway. MJ's backstory is also responsible for some of the best Spider-Man stories in the Bronze Age being a big part of Stern's masterpiece, "The Daydreamers".

And since the version of MJ in Spider-Man 1 is more informed by the tragic backstory of having a broken and abusive home, and she still had her "spark" as in the upside-down kiss and so on...the idea that the backstory removed the "spark" is entirely insupportable and false.

Slott's comments on OMD seem fair to both sides (he understands where both sides are coming from, and doesn't think anyone's happy when it's referenced.)

You might exaggerate the significance of him being off on some timing when speaking off the cuff. The announcements about MJ's family came years before the wedding, and whatever you think of ASM 259, it did build on what was seeded in Wolfman and Stern's runs.

The first time MJ's extended (not Aunt Anna) was part of the main narrative was the story in which Peter proposed, so one can still see the backstory as part of MJ's transformation into Mrs. Parker.

In Parallel Lives, the wedding coincided with the revelation that Mary Jane had always known that Peter is Spider-Man, which is a different can of worms.

And by the way, "The Kid Who Collects Spider-Man" "Nothing Can Stop the Juggernaut" and the origin of the Hobgoblin are probably Stern's masterpieces.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

...

All I can suggest at this point is perhaps if you have the time, you can re-read the comics of the time and see again with fresh eyes. For the record here's a list of her appearances between #241 and the Marriage Issues.

http://www.supermegamonkey.net/cgi-b...earch=1#011467

That's a total of 66 Issues. 38 of them ASM

Amazing Spider-Man #240-241
Amazing Spider-Man #242-243
Amazing Spider-Man #244-245
Amazing Spider-Man #246
Amazing Spider-Man #247-248
Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Man #85
Amazing Spider-Man #249-251
Amazing Spider-Man #256-258 1st Puma. Spidey's costume revealed as a symbiote.
Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Man #96
Amazing Spider-Man #259
Amazing Spider-Man #260-261
Amazing Spider-Man #263
Web of Spider-Man #1
Web of Spider-Man #2
Web of Spider-Man #3
Amazing Spider-Man #265 1st Silver Sable
Web of Spider-Man #6
Amazing Spider-Man annual #19 1st Alistair Smythe
Amazing Spider-Man #271
Web of Spider-Man #11
Web of Spider-Man #12
Web of Spider-Man #13
Amazing Spider-Man #273
Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Man #111
Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Man #112
Amazing Spider-Man #274
Amazing Spider-Man #275-276
Amazing Spider-Man #277
Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Man #113
Web of Spider-Man #14-15
Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Man #115-116
Amazing Spider-Man #279
Web of Spider-Man #18
Web of Spider-Man annual #2
Amazing Spider-Man #280-282
Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Man #119
Amazing Spider-Man annual #20
Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Man #121
Amazing Spider-Man #283
Amazing Spider-Man #284-286 Gang War begins
Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Man #123
Amazing Spider-Man #287-288 Gang War concludes
Web of Spider-Man #28
Spider-Man vs. Wolverine #1
Web of Spider-Man #29
Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Man #128-129
Amazing Spider-Man #290-292

One advantage of the Internet Era, is that because there's so much access and information available, it's different from earlier eras where you had to go by the grapevine and rumor mill and so on. So you can find hard data about stuff like "significant supporting character". For comparison, in ASM alone, Felicia Hardy appeared in 22 issues between 242-289 and she was the big new character at the time. And 57 issues overall since her first appearance in #193-289. So MJ after her return, already exceeded in a short amount of time Felicia's entire list of appearances.

[Prof. Warren]

It's a problem if I keep citing the issues, appearances, her recurring beats, and give you chapter and verse...and you ignore that and go "my impression".

Yes subjective views count and shape, but at a certain point you have to accept things.

As do you. I read ASM back in the day. I remember how things unfolded and I still revisit those issues.

So I'm well aware that MJ and Peter were not dating or even romantically involved prior to his proposal. Hence, when Peter dropped the question it felt out of left field.

In issue #283, I recall Peter and MJ meeting up at a diner to talk. Mostly about Flash's then-current predicament being accused of being the Hobgoblin. At this point, they're still just close friends. And Peter has a thought as he leaves to the effect of "Gee, why do I feel so awkward around MJ lately?"

After that, he's caught up in the Gang War for four issues, then there's the reveal of the Hobgoblin. The issue after that, he's proposing to MJ. It was, to say the least, sudden. And the statements from creative personnel involved in the Spider books at that time all corroborate just how quickly things developed on that front.

What else is there to say about it? It doesn't invalidate MJ's development since then to note that her role in the book underwent a big change in the space of a relatively short time.

I mean when OMD came out, Quesada said that the marriage was a stunt and so on. Neither I nor most people knew anything about that at the time. The entire behind-the-scenes stuff was obscure and unknown and still is. Objectively, that's true. The marriage was a stunt. But what's also objectively true is the years leading to that, MJ made several appearances in ASM and Sister Titles, and was a constant, recurring and developed character, had many issues, including a whole Annual (ASM Annual #19, by Louise Simonson) devoted to her. So you can't say she was missing from the books either.

Not missing, no. But not, from all appearances, on the road to a lifelong commitment with Peter either.

I have cited her appearance in many subsidiary books, in tie-in books, and in Superman vs. TASM, and in advertisements. Why do you ignore that? Can you name any other supporting character with that many appearances and that big a footprint out of their books in that time? Jameson probably. Aunt May, definitely not.

If you're making the claim that MJ has always been the most popular romantic interest for Peter, I would simply say that is an opinion and there is no way to objectively establish that.

I would agree that she is surely the most popular romantic interest overall today but "always" is something that is simply impossible to verify.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I actually edited my earlier comment and altered it above. So I'm just requoting from above.

..,I would agree that she is surely the most popular romantic interest overall today but "always" is something that is simply impossible to verify.

One advantage of the Internet Era, is that because there's so much access and information available, it's different from earlier eras where you had to go by the grapevine and rumor mill and so on. So you can find hard data about stuff like "significant supporting character".

For comparison, Felicia Hardy appeared in 57 issues overall since her first appearance in #193-289. 22 issues in ASM and she was the big new character at the time. MJ after her return in 241-289 had 66 appearances overall, 38 in ASM.

So already MJ exceeded in a short amount of time Felicia's entire list of appearances in Spider-Man titles and ASM.

For MJ
http://www.supermegamonkey.net/cgi-b...earch=1#011467

For Black Cat
http://www.supermegamonkey.net/cgi-b...earch=1#008732

Beyond that, I have nothing more to add and say. I thank you for your time and the patience of everyone else.

If nothing else, this should give people a chance to revisit older issues and stuff with something new to check and look for...

[Prof. Warren]

All I can suggest at this point is perhaps if you have the time, you can re-read the comics of the time and see again with fresh eyes. For the record here's a list of her appearances between #241 and the Marriage Issues.

http://www.supermegamonkey.net/cgi-b...earch=1#011467

That's a total of 66 Issues. 38 of them ASM

Amazing Spider-Man #240-241
Amazing Spider-Man #242-243
Amazing Spider-Man #244-245
Amazing Spider-Man #246
Amazing Spider-Man #247-248
Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Man #85
Amazing Spider-Man #249-251
Amazing Spider-Man #256-258 1st Puma. Spidey's costume revealed as a symbiote.
Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Man #96
Amazing Spider-Man #259
Amazing Spider-Man #260-261
Amazing Spider-Man #263
Web of Spider-Man #1
Web of Spider-Man #2
Web of Spider-Man #3
Amazing Spider-Man #265 1st Silver Sable
Web of Spider-Man #6
Amazing Spider-Man annual #19 1st Alistair Smythe
Amazing Spider-Man #271
Web of Spider-Man #11
Web of Spider-Man #12
Web of Spider-Man #13
Amazing Spider-Man #273
Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Man #111
Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Man #112
Amazing Spider-Man #274
Amazing Spider-Man #275-276
Amazing Spider-Man #277
Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Man #113
Web of Spider-Man #14-15
Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Man #115-116
Amazing Spider-Man #279
Web of Spider-Man #18
Web of Spider-Man annual #2
Amazing Spider-Man #280-282
Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Man #119
Amazing Spider-Man annual #20
Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Man #121
Amazing Spider-Man #283
Amazing Spider-Man #284-286 Gang War begins
Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Man #123
Amazing Spider-Man #287-288 Gang War concludes
Web of Spider-Man #28
Spider-Man vs. Wolverine #1
Web of Spider-Man #29
Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Man #128-129
Amazing Spider-Man #290-292

One advantage of the Internet Era, is that because there's so much access and information available, it's different from earlier eras where you had to go by the grapevine and rumor mill and so on. So you can find hard data about stuff like "significant supporting character". For comparison, in ASM alone, Felicia Hardy appeared in 22 issues between 242-289 and she was the big new character at the time. And 57 issues overall since her first appearance in #193-289. So MJ after her return, already exceeded in a short amount of time Felicia's entire list of appearances.

Just to reiterate, I've already read these issues. And I do re-read many of them here and there on occasion. But they're also from thirty some-odd years ago so they're not a big part of my daily life anymore.

At 50, with a wife, a teenage child, a busy full time job and other hobby-ish interests beyond comics, the amount of time I want to actively commit to researching the exact amount of issues that MJ appeared in as opposed to Felicia and determining who was really a more important supporting character in the Spider books back in the late '80s is, well, zero time. I mean, I do have a life. If I had to give testimony in a court of law about this matter, or if I was planning on writing a book about it, sure I'd go through a stack of 66 issues as research. But otherwise, it's not something worth carving out that kind of time for. Those issues and that era of Spidey is a nostalgic, fondly remembered part of my past and I'm about as familiar with them as I feel I need to be.