Dan Slott on the "real" MJ

[Spidercide]

I think you'd be surprised.

End of the day, I doubt there is a "most ASM readers" of any one specific race, creed, color, gender, age, religion, political leaning, or any walk of life.
This is coming from someone who's been attending multiple signings and conventions as a Spider-Man writer around the globe-- since 2008-- and what I see in the real world is a big, broad spectrum of Spidey readers like you wouldn't believe. We're talking thousands upon thousands of people here. In Mexico City alone-- I did multiple days of shows, 9 hours of constant signing, lines that wouldn't end, and it was close 27 hours of Spider-Man fans who were guys and girls of all ages-- even grandmas. Spider-Man really does belong to everybody.

I think the internet and message boards give you a skewed view of fandom. And reality. It's usually the same 50 or so people per board who are regularly posting. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Until the squeaky wheel gets so offensively squeaky, it gets banned. And the turn around is rarely as high as you think-- with "new" posters who usually wind up being formally banned members returning with sock puppet accounts. Through group-speak it often times feels like an overwhelming consensus about one opinion or the other. Add into that online users who aren't even reading the books themselves, but are getting their info from out-of-context panels posted on Tumblr-- or inaccurate Wiki entries-- and the internet thumb print gets even muddier.

I don't think message boards inhenrelty skew things like that because it can depend upon which messageboards and so on. I've actually ha my eyes opened through online interaction in regards to just how many female comic book readers there not only are now, but have actually always been. But yes there are too many fans of all walks of life to conduct a head count.

But in my experience I've met a lot of female Spider-Fans, some of whom have been invested since the 90s or 70s. Which is part of the charm of Spider-Man. He is mostly universal in his appeal. In fact only yesterday I encountered a female fan who absolutely adores Kaine Parker which I admit to being narrowminded enough to have found surprising at first, before thinking "Why would that be odd? He is a good character"

A character resonates with different people for different reasons and for highly individualised ways. A female fan can really love a stereotypically macho character like Wolverine because they just enjoy his grizzled personality, and a male fan can enjoy say Sailor Moon because he just finds her determination and kindness endearing.

[Spidercide]

People don't look much beyond the surface. To a casual observer, they are both cat themed burglars in a flirtatious relationship with our animal themed super hero lead.

(There's a reason Amazing Spider-Man 2 adapted "Felicia" as they did.)

I assumed it was just fan service. I don't think they were thinking about it that deeply.

You are right though people don't think too much about these things beyond the superficial surface details. E.g. people assuming the symbiote made Spider-Man evil when that didn't happen and only occurred in media adaptations. Or people who are say it was inherently bad for 80s/90s Spider-Man to have subplots about smoking and bolemia but were perfectly accepting of Harry Osborn abusing drugs and later on Flash abusing alcohol....whilst also claiming Spider-Man is a soap opera, which means it WOULD deal with all four of those issues.

[Sardorim]

Way I see it as MJ grew up but not everyone in the industry liked that.

[Vortex85]

I think the internet and message boards give you a skewed view of fandom. And reality. It's usually the same 50 or so people per board who are regularly posting. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Until the squeaky wheel gets so offensively squeaky, it gets banned. And the turn around is rarely as high as you think-- with "new" posters who usually wind up being formally banned members returning with sock puppet accounts. Through group-speak it often times feels like an overwhelming consensus about one opinion or the other. Add into that online users who aren't even reading the books themselves, but are getting their info from out-of-context panels posted on Tumblr-- or inaccurate Wiki entries-- and the internet thumb print gets even muddier.

I don't know. I tend to think that people dedicating lots of time to discuss comic book characters generally are more informed about that character than those who don't. Or, they become more informed over time. So, while you may see lots of fans who cosplay and dress up and talk Spidey, they may know the character from a few comic books, a couple movies, etc.. Again, you can also find these people on forums from time to time, but if you want to really go deep into character study and dissect what fans who really dedicate large amounts of their life to understanding the character better, you can generally find those on fan forums.

I think a more informed opinion is better. I wouldn't want a casual reader who knew very little history writing the title. You would end up with a mess of continuity and a lot of character misrepresentation.

PS. I'm not saying cospalyers and comic convention fans are not as informed. They ver may well be and have not interest of spending time on the interent. But you are unlikely to hear what they really think at a convention, or how in depth they know the character.

[Spidercide]

I don't know. I tend to think that people dedicating lots of time to discuss comic book characters generally are more informed about that character than those who don't. Or, they become more informed over time. So, while you may see lots of fans who cosplay and dress up and talk Spidey, they may know the character from a few comic books, a couple movies, etc.. Again, you can also find these people on forums from time to time, but if you want to really go deep into character study and dissect what fans who really dedicate large amounts of their life to understanding the character better, you can generally find those on fan forums.

I think a more informed opinion is better. I wouldn't want a casual reader who knew very little history writing the title. You would end up with a mess of continuity and a lot of character misrepresentation.

PS. I'm not saying cospalyers and comic convention fans are not as informed. They ver may well be and have not interest of spending time on the interent. But you are unlikely to hear what they really think at a convention, or how in depth they know the character.

I agree although sometimes a fresh POV can be good. In regards to this though I think the person assuming most fans were male might've been doing so out of a myth that comic books are a boys club. Whilst male targeted for the longest time there have always been female fans, and the demographic is currently expanding.

There are male and female (and trans of course) fans of every fandom. Sailor Moon has many male fans, Bronies (for all the bad associations they might have) exist, Wonder Woman has male fans, Dragon Ball Z has female fans.

As for the internet most people have internet access these days very easily and between facebook, twitter and MBs they talk about thier passions

[Aruran.]

Way I see it as MJ grew up but not everyone in the industry liked that.

Pretty much.
It's probably a generational thing too, anyone who saw the changes happen before their eyes have a different experience over someone who sees it as one big story.

[Steeler53]

I think you'd be surprised.

End of the day, I doubt there is a "most ASM readers" of any one specific race, creed, color, gender, age, religion, political leaning, or any walk of life.
This is coming from someone who's been attending multiple signings and conventions as a Spider-Man writer around the globe-- since 2008-- and what I see in the real world is a big, broad spectrum of Spidey readers like you wouldn't believe. We're talking thousands upon thousands of people here. In Mexico City alone-- I did multiple days of shows, 9 hours of constant signing, lines that wouldn't end, and it was close 27 hours of Spider-Man fans who were guys and girls of all ages-- even grandmas. Spider-Man really does belong to everybody.

I think the internet and message boards give you a skewed view of fandom. And reality. It's usually the same 50 or so people per board who are regularly posting. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Until the squeaky wheel gets so offensively squeaky, it gets banned. And the turn around is rarely as high as you think-- with "new" posters who usually wind up being formally banned members returning with sock puppet accounts. Through group-speak it often times feels like an overwhelming consensus about one opinion or the other. Add into that online users who aren't even reading the books themselves, but are getting their info from out-of-context panels posted on Tumblr-- or inaccurate Wiki entries-- and the internet thumb print gets even muddier.

Mr. Slott: I certainly defer to you when it comes to the demographics of ASM readers ( I learned something new and I want to thank you for taking the time to share your insight). I should have said in my opinion about MJ, why I like her ( compared to the others). I stand corrected.

[dragonmp93]

I think you'd be surprised.

End of the day, I doubt there is a "most ASM readers" of any one specific race, creed, color, gender, age, religion, political leaning, or any walk of life.
This is coming from someone who's been attending multiple signings and conventions as a Spider-Man writer around the globe-- since 2008-- and what I see in the real world is a big, broad spectrum of Spidey readers like you wouldn't believe. We're talking thousands upon thousands of people here. In Mexico City alone-- I did multiple days of shows, 9 hours of constant signing, lines that wouldn't end, and it was close 27 hours of Spider-Man fans who were guys and girls of all ages-- even grandmas. Spider-Man really does belong to everybody.

I think the internet and message boards give you a skewed view of fandom. And reality. It's usually the same 50 or so people per board who are regularly posting. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Until the squeaky wheel gets so offensively squeaky, it gets banned. And the turn around is rarely as high as you think-- with "new" posters who usually wind up being formally banned members returning with sock puppet accounts. Through group-speak it often times feels like an overwhelming consensus about one opinion or the other. Add into that online users who aren't even reading the books themselves, but are getting their info from out-of-context panels posted on Tumblr-- or inaccurate Wiki entries-- and the internet thumb print gets even muddier.

Well, from my experience, i have learned two things:

- Out of the people that is aware of One More Day, no one likes it, they are indifferent to it or they simply hate it.
- And that 10 people in single thread can make a lot of noise, as the X-fan's CompleX can proves.

[Vortex85]

Well, from my experience, i have learned two things:

- Out of the people that is aware of One More Day, no one likes it, they are indifferent to it or they simply hate it.
- And that 10 people in single thread can make a lot of noise, as the X-fan's CompleX can proves.

There are a few people out there who liked OMD, for one reason or another. Look at Amazon reviews, for example.

[Spidercide]

There are a few people out there who liked OMD, for one reason or another. Look at Amazon reviews, for example.

There are always the lunatic fringe who don't know what they are talking about.

I just don't want MJ to take front in center in the canvas that is Peter Parkers life since she can't and won't ever be as important as Spider-Man on a fundamental level. Plus she's not badass.

Yes, because Peter Parker hasn’t been pushed off of centre stage all that much in recent years. Not by Otto, or Silk, or every goddam other AU version of Spider-Man, or the Avengers or the FF???? Mary Jane rarely if EVER took centre stage like that. The focus was almost always on Spider-Man himself, a notable exception being the Clone Saga and the Mackie/Byrne reboot, the former for obvious reasons and the latter because (like now) they were trying to promote other characters through Spider-Man as if his solo-titles were marvel team up or something

And as for not being bad ass, who is more bad ass and a superior athlete? The guy with ran the marathon, or the person with a limp who ran it and matched the other person’s time? Equally who is more bad ass: the superhuman who has a danger sense and super strength/speed which he uses to defeat bad guys, or the normal human being who can hold her own and take them down despite none of those advantages? Oh, and also she has managed to stay sane amidst stresses on her mental health which realistically should have driven her into some form of mental illness years and years ago. THAT is a bad ass.

It's actually pretty funny when you hear the entire video and how things have to be different.



Slott goes against what he said in half the video saying how there should be changes, but he disliked certain changes as well.

I don't mind the changes to Mary Jane's personality, because to me it was established as what made her "her". I didn't see it real time, I saw it as 40 years of work collaborated together.
But at the same time, someone who saw it happened in real time would find it her change off putting.

Really this all comes down to how you end up learning about these characters like Dan Slott said. Their in your head in a certain way, and when someone changes the foundation, it's hard for you to adjust. Just like how people debate about the Star Wars trilogies.

I know a very large number of people who saw the change unfold and were absolutely fine with it and/or welcoming of it. It isn't as simple as how you get invested. You can say that affects your preferences to an extent, but you can still take a step back and evaluate things. As a kid Felicia was my fav Spider-Man love interest. That changed when I learned more about MJ, though I still love Felicia a lot. I used to be believe Gwen was this brilliant character cruelly taken from Peter before her time and they had this wonderful romance together. Then I read more from the Silver Age and yeah, no that wasn't the case at all Gwen was a terrible character and her portrayal post-death has been a flanderisation

It is hard to adjust and you can have a preference but as a writer or whoever you need to take a step back and try and evaluate what is best overall. DeFalco really, really, really doesn't like that Norman came back to life at all. He also likes Doc Ock much more than him. He still wrote Norman the best he could and accepted him as the Spider-Man Big Bad above Otto.

[Spidercide]

MJ is boring dude. Tell me who was more exciting to see on Panel with Spidey interacting, Black Cat or MJ?

Boredom is in the eye of the beholder there is rarely any objective value. And as for who is more exciting it depends upon the context of the scene. In general Mary Jane because she is more down to Earth and a real person, which is Spider-Man’s wheelhouse. When you have him constantly interacting with these costumed types it takes away from that and becomes a cartoon. It also it cheap and easy to make it superficially exciting because “Oh hey look here is a costumed person!!!!!”. Making a real person and a normal person interesting and engaging is a greater feat of writing that doesn’t rely upon such superficialities.

By the logic you are claiming, basically we shouldn’t see Peter’s NORMAL life all that much or see him interact with his supporting cast members, which is the draw of Spider-Man. the normalacy and the fantastical co-existing.

I;m saying that MJ and marriage are something that shouldn't be intersected as a core abstract basis when telling a Spiderman story. A comicbook hero no matter how relateable he is should never make a ordinary real life process one of the foundations of comicbook fundamentals(besides being the love interest damsel), period. MJ is tied to too many ordinary basics that are boring and to mundane for a action adventure series rooted in a adventure fantasy, marriage stories like JMS's stuff would bring the fun and escapism down, Spidey to excels at escapism and perseverance than day to day realism.

Lois > MJ in badassness.

Aunt May even tops her, she punched Cap America in the face(yes I know it's ultimates).

Should made Logan bitched out in front of all the Avengers for being a slob.

She punked Chameleon before MJ did, it was a crowning moment of awesome because it required cunning and timing not just a cheap shot with a bat to the head.

Excuse me but what? You are basically saying the normalacy of Spider-Man shouldn’t be a fundamental aspect of him when THAT WAS THE APPEAL IN THE FIRST PLACE! And saying a love interest shouldn’t be a core aspect unless they are a damsel? Are you for real? You got any idea how goddam regressive and arguably sexist that is?

Let’s get some things straight. We follow Peter Parker’s life. he has a normal life and a superhero life. We are emotionally invested in both and in fact care more about one because we care about another. Seeing him be a hero makes us worry about how it will impact his normal life. Seeing his normal life makes us see why he is a hero.

So no actually ‘an ordinary real life process’ IS one of the comic book fundamentals. Taking care of his aunt, paying his wage, studying, putting up with school bullies, having a girlfriend, graduating from school and college, moving out, these are ALL ordinary processes which ARE fundamental to Spider-Man. Didja miss that in your decades of reading the franchise? Emotional investment in Spider-Man comes at least half from SEEING those normal life processes. And if he is married then yeah that’s going to be important to him, same as having a mother or a best friend or a school life is.

Spider-Man is a superhero story which EMPHASIES the normal. THAT is why he became so popular. Your logic basically means that Superman and the F4 should be waaaaaaaay more popular than Spider-Man, when they aren’t. Because Spider-Man IS more normal. And by your logic, screw it, make him Spider-Man 24/7 and have everyone in his cast just be super powered people. Do you see how anathema to what Spider-Man is and was that is? How the Hell is THAT at all evocative of what Ditko, Romita, Stern or whoever did? Your basically saying “The Kid Who Collected Spider-Man, boy that sure was boring amirite!”

Again, Lois Lane has military training. MJ doesn’t. MJ can still kick villain asses. Oh and her husband doesn’t have the benefit of being one of the most powerful beings on Earth who’s invulnerable to most things. She still put up with and survived that. THAT is bad ass. When someone has a disadvantage but still manages impressive feats other people who DON’T have that advantage have THEY are bad ass, they are MORE bad ass.

And WTF does Lois Lane existing have to do with MJ? Lois exists and is bad ass. Therefore MJ sucks? That’s illogical.

Marry Jane defeated Swarm who was trying to kill her but on an entirely different plane of reality which therefore has NO bearing on the 616 universe Mary Jane, a middle aged woman punched a guy without real powers in the face in a non-combat situation. Can you see the lack of logic in that one?

And as for dissing Logan for being a slob...so...effing...what

And no. MJ owned Chameleon in the 1990s, Aunt May did it in the 2000s and she did it by tricking him. MJ actually had to physically fight the master assassin and she WON. So I don’t know wtf your talking about frankly

[Spidercide]

This is a woman who stood by Peter through all, and I stress ALL, of his issues. Depressed “I can’t go on” Peter, angry “I’m going to bring back the black suit and almost kill people” Peter, tunnel vision “the city is all that matters” Peter, and don’t forget “oh my god Aunt May got hurt for like the 90th time so I must be by her bedside” Peter. She doesn’t get enough credit for all the junk she put up with.

http://geektyrant.com/news/5-most-di...zergnet_417784

That quote sums up why it's frankly bad form for people to continually bemoan MJ whenever she gets mad, or stressed, or whatever. The lady had the patience of a saint and put up with a Helluva lot of crap from our hero. But yes okay, let's continue to rip the crap out of her for not being 'understanding' or whatever and not being bad ass for handlin her business like a boss

[Vortex85]

http://geektyrant.com/news/5-most-di...zergnet_417784

That quote sums up why it's frankly bad form for people to continually bemoan MJ whenever she gets mad, or stressed, or whatever. The lady had the patience of a saint and put up with a Helluva lot of crap from our hero. But yes okay, let's continue to rip the crap out of her for not being 'understanding' or whatever and not being bad ass for handlin her business like a boss

Agreed. BTW, I've really enjoyed your analysis of things so far on this thread from your first post here onwards. Lots a good points and plenty of historical proofs to back it up. Good job!

[Prime]

So...is she back or not?

[Confuzzled]

So...is she back or not?

An alternate version of her who is still married to Peter and has a child with him will feature in the summer's "Secret Wars" event, as well as another version where she retained her Spider-Island superpowers. But the original 616 version has not appeared in the ASM series since #3.

http://geektyrant.com/news/5-most-di...zergnet_417784

That quote sums up why it's frankly bad form for people to continually bemoan MJ whenever she gets mad, or stressed, or whatever. The lady had the patience of a saint and put up with a Helluva lot of crap from our hero. But yes okay, let's continue to rip the crap out of her for not being 'understanding' or whatever and not being bad ass for handlin her business like a boss

Hehe, I had read that article a while back and kept meaning to post it here. That writer is spot on with the scene he sets up with MJ reacting in character to Peter missing the wedding.