Dan Slott on the "real" MJ

[SpiderOrange]

I think "Renew Your Vows" has a lot of people concerned for sure. It definitely seems ominous, while being called "the last Spider-Man story ever!!!" and Miles seems to feature in the post SW world as well as in the main event prominently. There's that dangling thread of "will the marriage return, but if it does what consequences will there be?"

To think that all this started with "One More Day" back in 2007 is incredible.

[oldschool]

So...is she back or not?

Keep reading, True Believer!!

[Mia]

Honestly I don’t get the criticism about MJ. Did he really expect MJ to remain a party girl forever and never grow up. Who the hell does that?

I think you'd be surprised.
I think the internet and message boards give you a skewed view of fandom. And reality. It's usually the same 50 or so people per board who are regularly posting. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Until the squeaky wheel gets so offensively squeaky, it gets banned. And the turn around is rarely as high as you think-- with "new" posters who usually wind up being formally banned members returning with sock puppet accounts. Through group-speak it often times feels like an overwhelming consensus about one opinion or the other. Add into that online users who aren't even reading the books themselves, but are getting their info from out-of-context panels posted on Tumblr-- or inaccurate Wiki entries-- and the internet thumb print gets even muddier.

And one can make the exact same argument about the ‘fans’ you meet who attend conventions. Who is going to spend 20-50 bucks (or whatever it costs now I haven’t been to a con in over 7 years) , plus meals plus travel time just to complain or criticize a creator? And to their face at that? In all likelihood any fan you are meeting are just there to kiss your ass to get their stuff signed. If anything you’re most likely to get a more honest feedback on the forums. Of course some forums have better quality feedbacks than others. But from what I’ve seen here in general most feedback on CBR is pretty intelligent and well thought out. It’s far from just a whinny group of people.

[oldschool]

Honestly I don’t get the criticism about MJ. Did he really expect MJ to remain a party girl forever and never grow up. Who the hell does that?


And one can make the exact same argument about the ‘fans’ you meet who attend conventions. Who is going to spend 20-50 bucks (or whatever it costs now I haven’t been to a con in over 7 years) , plus meals plus travel time just to complain or criticize a creator? And to their face at that? In all likelihood any fan you are meeting are just there to kiss your ass to get their stuff signed. If anything you’re most likely to get a more honest feedback on the forums. Of course some forums have better quality feedbacks than others. But from what I’ve seen here in general most feedback on CBR is pretty intelligent and well thought out. It’s far from just a whinny group of people.

You bring up some very fair points. However, and just my opinion here, as in most cases the actual truth probably lies somewhere in between. I actually have seen some fans criticize some creators at cons (though always politely and not as often as they praise them) and I do think that, while it is easier to be an anonymous crank online, not everyone is. These forums exist as a community and, like every community, we are here to discuss opinions whether they be positive or negative. These forums are basically this century's version of a letters column in the back of our favorite comic. And, just like I recall reading in the 1980's, cynical fans would claim that Marvel would run only positive letters----except that I still have all my back issues and there were plenty of negative letters printed then, just like both types of posts are in these threads!
The more things change, the more they stay the same.....

[Tuck]

Who the hell does that?

Alcoholics and drug addicts.

[Spidercide]

You bring up some very fair points. However, and just my opinion here, as in most cases the actual truth probably lies somewhere in between. I actually have seen some fans criticize some creators at cons (though always politely and not as often as they praise them) and I do think that, while it is easier to be an anonymous crank online, not everyone is. These forums exist as a community and, like every community, we are here to discuss opinions whether they be positive or negative. These forums are basically this century's version of a letters column in the back of our favorite comic. And, just like I recall reading in the 1980's, cynical fans would claim that Marvel would run only positive letters----except that I still have all my back issues and there were plenty of negative letters printed then, just like both types of posts are in these threads!
The more things change, the more they stay the same.....

Whilst that is true, remember Marvel still had control over which negative letters would be printed, there is a spacing issue in regards to how many letters could be printed and sometimes letters pages weren’t in issues. From a historical analytical POV, trying to evaluate the opinions of fandom of a earlier decade is incredibly questionable because of these factors, whereas online forums allow for more time, space and variety of opinion not controlled in any way by the people they are actually talking about. MBs in a sense are actually far better gauges of opinion than the letters pages printed in the comics themselves.

Alcoholics and drug addicts.

Mary Jane wasn't an alcoholic or a drug addict. She just enjoyed dancing. Additionally that depends upon any given individual drug addict or alcoholic. Some change. Some don't

[oldschool]

Whilst that is true, remember Marvel still had control over which negative letters would be printed, there is a spacing issue in regards to how many letters could be printed and sometimes letters pages weren’t in issues. From a historical analytical POV, trying to evaluate the opinions of fandom of a earlier decade is incredibly questionable because of these factors, whereas online forums allow for more time, space and variety of opinion not controlled in any way by the people they are actually talking about. MBs in a sense are actually far better gauges of opinion than the letters pages printed in the comics themselves.

Of course Marvel decided which letters to print and which not; but I have plenty of comics with some pretty nasty and blunt letters printed in them. Other than letters that contained bad language or stupid threats, I am not sure what they held back on! If you have access to them, take a gander at some of the letters following Gwen's death or even the controversial Hobgoblin reveal from the 1980's. I get what you're saying about spacing but still there are plenty of negative letters they printed there and other times so I am not sure that part of your argument holds a whole lot of water.

Message boards being a truer reflection? Eh, not sure. We users might just have more time or just enjoy the community here more than others might; doesn't mean we are a better representation of fandom and certainly not a more desirable demo for Marvel than someone who once took pen to paper to express their opinion.

[Aruran.]

Mary Jane wasn't an alcoholic or a drug addict. She just enjoyed dancing. Additionally that depends upon any given individual drug addict or alcoholic. Some change. Some don't

Tuck knows that, they were just answering the question on who parties all the time.
It's a one line zinger.

[Mister Mets]

Of course Marvel decided which letters to print and which not; but I have plenty of comics with some pretty nasty and blunt letters printed in them. Other than letters that contained bad language or stupid threats, I am not sure what they held back on! If you have access to them, take a gander at some of the letters following Gwen's death or even the controversial Hobgoblin reveal from the 1980's. I get what you're saying about spacing but still there are plenty of negative letters they printed there and other times so I am not sure that part of your argument holds a whole lot of water.

Message boards being a truer reflection? Eh, not sure. We users might just have more time or just enjoy the community here more than others might; doesn't mean we are a better representation of fandom and certainly not a more desirable demo for Marvel than someone who once took pen to paper to express their opinion.

Forums definitely have elements of selection bias, so it's not going to be a uniform group. With online interactions, there is also often going to be some posturing and self-censorship, which makes it tougher to ascertain opinions.

Honestly I don’t get the criticism about MJ. Did he really expect MJ to remain a party girl forever and never grow up. Who the hell does that?

Characters in episodic serials with no end in sight.

[Spidercide]

Of course Marvel decided which letters to print and which not; but I have plenty of comics with some pretty nasty and blunt letters printed in them. Other than letters that contained bad language or stupid threats, I am not sure what they held back on! If you have access to them, take a gander at some of the letters following Gwen's death or even the controversial Hobgoblin reveal from the 1980's. I get what you're saying about spacing but still there are plenty of negative letters they printed there and other times so I am not sure that part of your argument holds a whole lot of water.

Message boards being a truer reflection? Eh, not sure. We users might just have more time or just enjoy the community here more than others might; doesn't mean we are a better representation of fandom and certainly not a more desirable demo for Marvel than someone who once took pen to paper to express their opinion.

I’m just saying as a historical source, those things are more questionable than modern internet forms of communication since no one is specifically choosing what does and doesn’t get to reflect one thing or another. I’m not saying Marvel only printed positives or negatives, but they are dodgy historical sources. Sometimes letters would be chosen to be printed in order for to raise an idea to fans about where the series might go, and sometimes Marvel (or at least Stan) deliberately wrote letters for one reason or another, like maybe raising an idea with people to see if they were interesting is the series going that direction.

And what I am saying in regards to the spacing is that a letters page has a finite amount of space that cannot possibly present the cross section or opinions of a fandom with thousands and thousands of people. Sometimes there might be space for three letters but is that really going to reflect the variety of opinions on any given topic, if they are all about the same topic in the first place?

Digital media means you can have hundreds of pages of responses of any given length on the same topic and observe the variety of opinion, whilst at the same time it is all visible and public. There can be little question over what was presented vs. what was chosen to not be printed.

You misunderstand. The point about internet access is that it opens to door to pretty much everyone thus giving a greater cross section. It is exactly like olden hand written letters but more widespread and grander in scale.

Tuck knows that, they were just answering the question on who parties all the time.
It's a one line zinger.

I see. Apologies.

Forums definitely have elements of selection bias, so it's not going to be a uniform group. With online interactions, there is also often going to be some posturing and self-censorship, which makes it tougher to ascertain opinions.


Characters in episodic serials with no end in sight.

There is a difference between selecting which opinions are represented and how one individual person chooses to express their opinion.

Half the characters in Marvel's 1960s pantheon, including the leads, have changed. That was the point of continuity. Time passes and thus change occurs. Sub-Mariner for instance began as searching for his people. But he found them as early as FF Annual #1. Change and development. Flash Thompson began as a bully who evolved into a hero/anti-hero nowdays with a lot of sympathy. Norman Osborn began as a man with gangland intentions who evolved into one of the most sadistic SOBs in the Marvel universe. Harry Osborn circa the 1990s was most certainly NOT the same person we met under Ditko or even Romita later on. He'd changed. Few of the core Spider-Man characters have stayed EXACTLY the same as they originally were created. Expecting or criticising Mary Jane for simply doing the same (and maybe doing it better than everyone else) is illogical. If the lead character himself is allowed to change and evolve then why not this supporting cast member to? It's not exactly a shock that people only began to overwhelming care about Aunt May when JMS evolved her character

This isn't Quantum Leap where the characters are the characters forever until the end and if there is no end, then they remain one way forever. The best characters evolve and change, and that's a big part of what Stan et al brought to comics in the 1960s.

There is also a strong argument to be made that the Marvel pantheon were (consciously or not) built in such a way that they work without an end point.

In fact Chris Claremont (you know, one of the key architects of comic books which wrote the all time definitive run of X-Men), had a very eloquent quote about this:

It seems to me that a character cannot remain static, even in an ongoing, open ended publishing format like comics. If you freeze a character into a certain set of parameters, usually for convenience of other writers, or readers, of merchandisers, whatever, then before long that character runs the risk of becoming sterile.
Writers and ultimately readers may stop thinking of the character as a vital, real three-dimensional being and instead come to perceive him or her as a conglomeration of stock elements. Plug ‘em in, wind ‘em up, turn him/her/them loose and put them through their stock paces.
Nothing changes. Nothing grows. Stories may still be technically exciting, but they’ve lost all heart. There’s no passion, nothing to excite the readers and hold them interested

With this in mind, is it any wonder his critically acclaimed X-Men work rarely DID keep things static for too long?

[David Walton]

I don't think the Lee/Romita Sr. model holds up as well when measured against the way Conway, Wein, Wolfman, Stern and DeFalco fleshed MJ out. This is an instance where the character got much, much better. Keep in mind this doesn't even bring the marriage to the table, because none of those creators had marriage in mind when they fleshed out her backstory. In fact, Wolfman and DeFalco were trying to explain why MJ could never marry Peter.

[Spidercide]

I don't think the Lee/Romita Sr. model holds up as well when measured against the way Conway, Wein, Wolfman, Stern and DeFalco fleshed MJ out. This is an instance where the character got much, much better. Keep in mind this doesn't even bring the marriage to the table, because none of those creators had marriage in mind when they fleshed out her backstory. In fact, Wolfman and DeFalco were trying to explain why MJ could never marry Peter.

I've never heard DeFalco say he was trying to explain why MJ could NEVER marry Peter. Just explain why she was the way she was, whilst eventually he and Frenz intended to have them get engaged and marry but MJ would jilt him. Wolfman I can buy that from but the thing is his story where MJ rejects Peter frankly feels really, really, really out of character for what had been shown and established about her in the Conway run onwards. Given Wolfman considered himself a 'purist' ('kay whatever) I'm not surprised he tried to take MJ backwards. He tried to do a lot of things which went halfway between progressing the series and regreesssing it. He graduates Peter but only so he is in Grad school where he can remain in education for eternity with no one questioning it. He has Betty Brant's marriage begin to deteriorate...but only so he has her back as a love interest and can try (not very well) to recreate the Betty/Veronica stuff between her and Mary Jane. Heck there is a moment where he introduces a female character and it is eyebrow raisingly similar to Gwen's introduction under Ditko.

But yes he was the first to throw out MJ's homelife which helped to make her seemingly regressive OOC moment in rejecting him make sense. Interestingly (despite what inaccurate chronologies state) a Bill Mantlo Spec issue occurs inbetween the proposal and the rejection which makes the rejection REALLY seem weird and forced. But with the explanation of the party girl facade and committment fears, the Spec issue actually makes more sense and serves to highlight how MJ isn't being sincere in her rejection of Peter.

I should qualify. I LOVE Romita era Mary Jane. She is a fantastic character. If you ask Gail Simone she feels that she was the start of Marvel doing good female characters and compared to most Silver Age Marvel ladies MJ did stand out.

But it's not a trade in. All the personality traits most people loved about Silver Age MJ are still there when you get to her character development, there is just MORE to it and it becomes MORE complicated. And therefore from a character and literary POV, better. There is a reason why after all Hamlet is a better character to Rosencrantz or Guilderstein (sp?). He isn't as simplistic as they are. He has more complexities and dimensions and conflicted feelings that open him up to interpretation and analysis more. R&G are fun and all, and they aren't BAD...but they aren't as good as Hamlet himself, who is arguably one of the characters in all fiction who comes closest to capturing the complexities of a real human being.

Equally Silver Age Mary Jane kicks ass. But she got even better from there. And when you get to DeFalco's origin she got even better still.


This wasn't like what happened to poor Felicia who started out awesome under Wolfman and Stern and then Mantlo and Mooney turned her into a ditzy schoolgirl that she never was (leaving Peter David to fix her) and then Kevin Smith came along and threw out her original motivation (to emulate her absent father) and instead said "It was because she got raped of course yuk yuk yuk".

[boots]

And one can make the exact same argument about the ‘fans’ you meet who attend conventions. Who is going to spend 20-50 bucks (or whatever it costs now I haven’t been to a con in over 7 years) , plus meals plus travel time just to complain or criticize a creator? And to their face at that? In all likelihood any fan you are meeting are just there to kiss your ass to get their stuff signed.

probably not too far from the truth, if a little heavy handed (i’ve never been to a con so i can’t really say). while i’m happy to hear dan slott’s anecdotal evidence that the audience is far more varied than the stereotypes lead us to believe, i still have a suspicion that the majority is male.

If anything you’re most likely to get a more honest feedback on the forums. Of course some forums have better quality feedbacks than others. But from what I’ve seen here in general most feedback on CBR is pretty intelligent and well thought out. It’s far from just a whinny group of people.

it’s varying degrees of whine. cbr is a cut above 4chan (though the culture there seems to aim for unfair rants and pot stirring) but i think if anyone did a breakdown of cbr posts for legitimate criticism and intelligent feedback vs fandumb, you’d find it’s about neck and neck.

[boots]

Alcoholics and drug addicts.

funny, but a tad unfair. one person’s immature is another’s “young at heart”. there are definitely broken people on the club scene well into their late 30s and 40s as well as healthy happy people who have simply chosen to live off the beaten path.

[boots]

Message boards being a truer reflection? Eh, not sure. We users might just have more time or just enjoy the community here more than others might; doesn't mean we are a better representation of fandom and certainly not a more desirable demo for Marvel than someone who once took pen to paper to express their opinion.

nail. head. direct hit.

it takes a bit of an obsessive mind-set to regularly post on message boards. even to seek them out in the first place. the majority of the audience for nay medium probably has other things to do.

don’t worry, i’m including myself here.