Where do we go from here with the Wally West of the new 52 ?

[Kyer]

And yet, by putting inclusiveness ahead of nostalgia, we can all do our little part.

Exactly.
Which is why I wish DC had just included Wally, Barry, Jay, Bart, Max, Danica Jessie, Walter, Fox.... That would have been my kind of inclusive. Instead we got one-sided nostalgia...DC Execs' nostalgia.

[GlennSimpson]

Exactly.
Which is why I wish DC had just included Wally, Barry, Jay, Bart, Max, Danica Jessie, Walter, Fox.... That would have been my kind of inclusive. Instead we got one-sided nostalgia...DC Execs' nostalgia.

I'm pretty sure you knew how I was using the term "inclusive", and it wasn't in a "we need more straight white people" kind of way.

But thanks for making my point so blatantly.

[leo619]

I find nothing sad about a minority character that has been around since the early 90s being able to maintain a title off and on over a long period of time. I mentioned Spawn because he is a long time original character that is featured in his own book.That may not put up big numbers, but has a following strong and loyal enough to keep it alive. What really is sad is your narrow-minded view that a minority character that is not a part of the Big2 having a strong enough following and support somehow is not a success.Perhaps D.C. and Marvel do not know how to do it yet.
I am not pretending anything i am pointing out a minority character that was able to sustain a book for years.Maybe Marvel and D.c. have not figured out a way to do it yet.

Except you haven't, you pointed out a book that has been having a white character as spawn for the past few years and yet still has been maintaining at levels that would be considered way below cancellations level in regards to Marvel and DC. Add the fact that one exception doesn't make the rule even if your example was true and we're still at square one, which is, original minority characters do not sell.

[Tazpocalapse]

Except you haven't, you pointed out a book that has been having a white character as spawn for the past few years and yet still has been maintaining at levels that would be considered way below cancellations level in regards to Marvel and DC. Add the fact that one exception doesn't make the rule even if your example was true and we're still at square one, which is, original minority characters do not sell.

Yes a white character has been Spawn for a few years. It still does not discount that Al Simmons did sustain a book for a long period of time. Did it put up Marvel and D.C. numbers no. I am not saying that one exception makes the rule . I was pointing out a minority character that has sustained a long running title despite putting up numbers that are considered not selling well compared to book put out by the big 2. I don't think all characters should be measured with the same sale ruler, characters with long established histories and fan bases clearly have a advantage over a original character for instance Luke Cage may have a larger fan base than the Prowler so you can not expect the Prowler to sell as much as Luke Cage without exposing the Prowler more to a larger audience.

[Kyer]

I'm pretty sure you knew how I was using the term "inclusive", and it wasn't in a "we need more straight white people" kind of way.

But thanks for making my point so blatantly.

Seriously? I took no such bias on the word inclusive.

Danica at least is not a 'straight white person'. Nor did I make that list based on 'straight white person'. The list was based on 'characters from the Flash family that I loved to see doing their heroic thing. One of them is black. Two are redheads. Blond, young, old, female, male, black, white....for all I know one or a doze are closet (fill in the blank). Characters. As their creators made them.

Friendly consideration? Maybe you think about 'race' a bit too much.

[upgrayedd]

Seriously? I took no such bias on the word inclusive.

Danica at least is not a 'straight white person'. Nor did I make that list based on 'straight white person'. The list was based on 'characters from the Flash family that I loved to see doing their heroic thing. One of them is black. Two are redheads. Blond, young, old, female, male, black, white....for all I know one or a doze are closet (fill in the blank). Characters. As their creators made them.

Friendly consideration? Maybe you think about 'race' a bit too much.

It's hard not to think about race when talking about the Flash....

because he races around....

races fast....

just trying to lighten things up.

[Kyer]

And appreciated.

[Dextersinister]

And yet, by putting inclusiveness ahead of nostalgia, we can all do our little part.

You seem to have confused comic buying with some form of charity, people buy comics with their money and if they prefer Wally white or Black that's there choice but it's probably safe to say most prefer the original. Where not here to be guilt tripped over every purchase.

[skyvolt2000]

That's not average numbers, that's the 250 anniversary which had a new writer and the return of Al Simmons. It will be back to the 12k in no time. Add the fact that people are trying to use an Image character as a possibility that an original minority can sale is the very definition of sad.

You want to know what is REALLY sad-that IDW, Dark Horse, Image, Dynamite, Valiant, Boom Studios, Archie & others can toss out minority lead stuff and we don't see 500 pages of privilege screaming that those books have no business being made.

Maybe the reason why Dc & Marvel struggle with minority lead books is because it's FANS are the issue. That annoying faction that don't want the books around. Who feel if the only books DC should put out are ones that are minority free.

I do not understand the Static doesn't deserve to be in a stupid game because his SECOND series lasted 8 issues but yet are once again SILENT when others who have failed in solos get used.

Funny we want to toss out sales as the reason no minority should EVER have a book but are SILENT about the low sales of Sonic the Hedgehog, Red Sonia, Lone Ranger, X-Files and all those other properties where minorities are NOT the lead.

I do not understand the complaints for guys who tend to stay in 1 ongoing book as a lead. How does Static staying in ONE book ruin anyone's reading of another book and yes I have heard that complaint.

It's funny we got all these complaints about minorities that can APPLY to white ones. Yet minorities remain the target.

Can we stop the double standard? If you don't want to read minority lead book-FINE. Lets stop the screaming that they don't need to try (and try) because someone thinks they should are "waste" money.

Well if they already have YOUR money-why do you care if they want to use minorities to try to get more money? And before anyone tosses out-minorities don't read-last time I checked minority lead books are not limited to being read by only minorities.

Understand something if DC doesn't try-someone else will.

[leo619]

Yes a white character has been Spawn for a few years. It still does not discount that Al Simmons did sustain a book for a long period of time. Did it put up Marvel and D.C. numbers no.

Well of course Spawn did, it was literally the number 1 driving force for perhaps the biggest boom in comics in American history, during the explosion one issue of Spawn would sell a million copies. It was the number 1 selling comic book in America. But you're talking about a hero was that establish in the comic revolution, we're talking about currently. The market of that time frame is completely different from the market we have today. The market of that time was diverse in men, women, young and old, filled with minorities. The comic book market of today is no where near the size, with supposedly close to 75% being of 28+ year old white males. It use to be up to 86% back in 2012 according to the San Diego Comic Con Diversity panel. You can also look at comics like Witchblade and Savage Dragon, also comics that came out at that time frame that still manages to sustain a solo today. But again, we're talking about the current comic book market, not the comic book market of the 1990's. You can't use Spawn as an example of why can't they create new minority characters today, because the market place today is nothing like the market place of the 1990's.

I am not saying that one exception makes the rule . I was pointing out a minority character that has sustained a long running title despite putting up numbers that are considered not selling well compared to book put out by the big 2. I don't think all characters should be measured with the same sale ruler, characters with long established histories and fan bases clearly have a advantage over a original character for instance Luke Cage may have a larger fan base than the Prowler so you can not expect the Prowler to sell as much as Luke Cage without exposing the Prowler more to a larger audience.

But we are talking about why can't marvel and dc create original minority characters that are successful, so in order for them to be successful, they have to fit within the marvel and dc standards of success. You can't apply the success levels image which has much lower threshold and apply it to marvel just like can't apply the success level of web comics and try to apply it on image. The Big 2 are called the big 2 for a reason so as such, they have big 2 standards that these books must maintain, or they get the boot. So while some may understand that original characters may not sell as much in comparison to characters with established histories, that still doesn't change the fact that the Big 2 are a business, and these characters whether old or new, must maintain a manageable selling point in order for them to be seem as feasible. If not, they are cast aside. So in this specific case regarding bringing new characters for the flash, we can't use lower standards, because DC has a prerequisite that comic books have to sell in order for them to continue to make that comic book, and the current audience for the big 2 doesn't reflect supporting new minority characters.

[skyvolt2000]

Except you haven't, you pointed out a book that has been having a white character as spawn for the past few years and yet still has been maintaining at levels that would be considered way below cancellations level in regards to Marvel and DC. Add the fact that one exception doesn't make the rule even if your example was true and we're still at square one, which is, original minority characters do not sell.

Neither does Dial H, Resurrection Man, Antman, Ted Kord, Ray Palmer, Grifter, Booster Gold, Jonah Hex, Constantine (does well in trades) and plenty of white characters I can toss out.

Why is it an issue with just minorities? Why are we constantly seeing minorities (Mainly black ones) get singled out?

1998-2011 we saw 100+ solo stories starring Black Panther.
Steel had 52
Cassandra Cain had 70+
Static had 43
Icon had 44
Hardware had 50
Jason Rusch had 35
War Machine had 25
Deathlok had 33
Jaime Reyes had 36
Luke Cage had 50 (then 75 more with Iron Fist)
John Stewart had 18 (and had decent sales before Hal went nuts)
Miles Morales had 36
Black Lighting had 13
Night Trasher had 21
Spawn is at 200+
Malcolm Dragon (Savage Dragon) 40+ (if you count when the book began to focus on him than his Dad)
Batwing at 36

Most of these books lasted at least 3 years. Funny how a three year run isn't good enough for all these minorities.

If those books couldn't sell-they don't make year 2 let alone 3 years.

With the way Marvel & Dc restart books-it's hard to really count if a book is axed due to sales or something else.

So lets TOSS "the minorities don't sell crap" out the door. They have sold in the past and in the present.

The issue we are having is what to do once we get some success and to NOT try to undo it. Of course that is hard when fanboys runs the company.

[Tazpocalapse]

Well of course Spawn did, it was literally the number 1 driving force for perhaps the biggest boom in comics in American history, during the explosion one issue of Spawn would sell a million copies. It was the number 1 selling comic book in America. But you're talking about a hero was that establish in the comic revolution, we're talking about currently. The market of that time frame is completely different from the market we have today. The market of that time was diverse in men, women, young and old, filled with minorities. The comic book market of today is no where near the size, with supposedly close to 75% being of 28+ year old white males. It use to be up to 86% back in 2012 according to the San Diego Comic Con Diversity panel. You can also look at comics like Witchblade and Savage Dragon, also comics that came out at that time frame that still manages to sustain a solo today. But again, we're talking about the current comic book market, not the comic book market of the 1990's. You can't use Spawn as an example of why can't they create new minority characters today, because the market place today is nothing like the market place of the 1990's.





But we are talking about why can't marvel and dc create original minority characters that are successful, so in order for them to be successful, they have to fit within the marvel and dc standards of success. You can't apply the success levels image which has much lower threshold and apply it to marvel just like can't apply the success level of web comics and try to apply it on image. The Big 2 are called the big 2 for a reason so as such, they have big 2 standards that these books must maintain, or they get the boot. So while some may understand that original characters may not sell as much in comparison to characters with established histories, that still doesn't change the fact that the Big 2 are a business, and these characters whether old or new, must maintain a manageable selling point in order for them to be seem as feasible. If not, they are cast aside. So in this specific case regarding bringing new characters for the flash, we can't use lower standards, because DC has a prerequisite that comic books have to sell in order for them to continue to make that comic book, and the current audience for the big 2 doesn't reflect supporting new minority characters.

I believe we are on the same page the market is different now. A lot of original characters that are not minorities do not sell well also these days compared to more established characters. I was indicating that Spawn was able to sustain because he was able to still have the support of it's company because it recognized that keeping the product available to it's loyal following allowed it to stick around now. So that the oppurtunity to rebound and still be in the game at some point in time even if he is still not putting up big numbers now.

I believe the problem with Marvel and D.C. has alot to do with brand name. A Marvel or D.C. book can not just live off comics alone. Ties to a franchise gives the oppurtunity for the product to be introduced in other media platforms that may gain more fans. Other companies do not necessarily rely on those factors as much when determining if minority characters will be showcased in titles. They may also look at other streams of revenue concerning merchandising and licensing to off-set low sales. A character may not sell a lot of comic books but the IP may generate other revenue and open up more avenues.

Now you have do really look at how you can maximize the potential for your product along side the comics. Milestone is making moves again and they have made it clear they are open to exploring many options. I think that is a good thing.

[leo619]

Neither does Dial H, Resurrection Man, Antman, Ted Kord, Ray Palmer, Grifter, Booster Gold, Jonah Hex, Constantine (does well in trades) and plenty of white characters I can toss out.

Why is it an issue with just minorities? Why are we constantly seeing minorities (Mainly black ones) get singled out?

1998-2011 we saw 100+ solo stories starring Black Panther.
Steel had 52
Cassandra Cain had 70+
Static had 43
Icon had 44
Hardware had 50
Jason Rusch had 35
War Machine had 25
Deathlok had 33
Jaime Reyes had 36
Luke Cage had 50 (then 75 more with Iron Fist)
John Stewart had 18 (and had decent sales before Hal went nuts)
Miles Morales had 36
Black Lighting had 13
Night Trasher had 21
Spawn is at 200+
Malcolm Dragon (Savage Dragon) 40+ (if you count when the book began to focus on him than his Dad)
Batwing at 36

Most of these books lasted at least 3 years. Funny how a three year run isn't good enough for all these minorities.

If those books couldn't sell-they don't make year 2 let alone 3 years.

With the way Marvel & Dc restart books-it's hard to really count if a book is axed due to sales or something else.

So lets TOSS "the minorities don't sell crap" out the door. They have sold in the past and in the present.

The issue we are having is what to do once we get some success and to NOT try to undo it. Of course that is hard when fanboys runs the company.

I have already addressed that it's not just minority characters that doesn't sell well. I have discussed this earlier in previous post.

Oh no one is saying being a white character is the recipe for success. But there is a level of difficulty that ranges between the different degrees of characters. Now I haven't actually seen booster gold on the sales chart so I'm not sure what you're referring to there. But it's not even fully about tearing up the charts but just being able to sell enough to not get cancelled would be a start.

For example, we have aquaman at 32k, with the cancellation levels being around 20k, he's pretty much safe. Especially at issue 39, he's weather test of time to be honest. True, unless a top selling writer stands behind him again, he won't be reaching top of the chart numbers either, but at least he will exist long enough for tell tons of stories and have content ready for the movies for who knows how many years to come.

Now let's look at perhaps the only minority original character series from the big 2, The Mighty Avengers, 22k. Mind you, this is at issue 5. And this isn't a fluke, even the previous series before it was rebooted as captain america the mighty avengers hovered just barely above the 20k range, and yet this book features the only book in either marvel and dc that is filled with original minority characters. Luke Cage, Power Man, Blue Marvel, Spectrum, it's pretty much the bread and butter of original characters. Written by Al Ewing whose regularly been given rave reviews on his books and this book should be easily in the 30k range, IF, what people say about wanting minority characters is true. As this book clearly illustrates, most of what we're seeing in this thread is just lip service. The mighty avengers has everything you could possibly want in the book, and even added spider man for popularity purposes, and even that's not doing anything.

So if I was going to put in video game difficulty, I'll place it like this.

1) Easy - White Male Old School Characters such as superman, batman, Iron Man, etc. These characters will almost always sell in solo books, can range from top of the charts to average sellings, but never cancellation.

2) Medium - White Female Old School Characters like Wonder Woman, white female legacy characters and White Male Legacy Characters - These individuals usually never reach top of the chart numbers, but rarely reach cancellation numbers. Usually range from medium to low sales but almost always above the cancellation mark. (Again we aren't talking about exceptions to the rule like the New Thor, but the overall general movement of the market)

3) Hard - New White Characters, Old School Minority Characters, Minority Legacy Characters - These are books that require a ton of hype, usually replacing an hero on an already established series in order to be successful like batwoman taking over detective comics or Miles Morales taking over Ultimate Spider Man. The audience was already there so they just had to like the new character that came in. These characters, if given a well known writer/artist can maintain a book above cancellation mark, without a well known artist/writer, the chances of cancellation increases drastically, and unless it's the first issue, you almost never see it within the top 20 books published.

4) Near Impossible - New Original Minority Characters - I've already gone over this, but as illustrated by Mighty Avengers which has 4-5 original minority characters, the only way possibly I can see these characters possibly making a dent is introduced in a company wide event, play a major if not crucial role in the event, and than release the series with a super high profile creative team. But with the chances of this happening being close to 0%, we're stuck with near impossible.

This pretty much explains the differences that characters have to face. With that said, you may have failed to notice, I specifically mentioned "original" minority characters "currently" do not sell. The books you mentioned are either legacy characters, OR, series that weren't produced in the current comic book market.

[GlennSimpson]

You seem to have confused comic buying with some form of charity, people buy comics with their money and if they prefer Wally white or Black that's there choice but it's probably safe to say most prefer the original. Where not here to be guilt tripped over every purchase.

You can buy whatever you want. But when you actually complain when another race actually gets even a small hand up because you want your funnybooks to stay the way they always have been, then your priorities are off.

[GlennSimpson]

Friendly consideration? Maybe you think about 'race' a bit too much.

Friendly consideration? Maybe you don't think about 'race' enough.