Where do we go from here with the Wally West of the new 52 ?

[kivatt]

I don't like it, as a Wally West fan, or as a black person. I find this new Wally West stupid, and a slap in the face to black people. It was"Hey let's make a white character black for all of you. Look how progressive we are being."
No, you are being lazy, and disrespectful. If wanted to actually have a black character that African Americans can relate to, make one up. Use you EXISTING black characters, actually tell their tale, instead of spitting in my face with this bs. It's not hard to make a black or minority character actually sell well, if you give them a good writer, and promote the hell out of them. Look at what Marvel did with Miles Morales, you have a shining example of what can be done if you care about a new character. But DC failed horribly in that aspect.



Hell, where is Rocket, Black Lightning, Static, X-S, Vixen, Steel, Icon, Hardwire, Mister Terrific?
You have a list of black Superheros at your disposal, but you don't even use them.

[Kyer]

Some people just don't get it: it's not that we are against black characters (or Asian or Hispanic or Indigenous for that matter). We are against race bending an existing character to fulfill some sort of quota or just because they don't like the existing character as he/she was or any other silly reason.
How many times must I type this?

KEEP THE BLACK KID.
MAKE HIM THE NEW KID FLASH.
PROMOTE THE LIVING SNOT OUT OF HIM SO THAT HE HAS HIS OWN LIFE ACTION AND CARTOON SHOWS AND IS THE TOP HOUSEHOLD NAME IN THE ENTIRE WORLD.

Just reveal the name was fake and not his own. Leave Wally MIA as long as it takes until the owners are again people who respect a character. Is that too much to ask?

(Yeah....Apparently to some.)

[Dextersinister]

You can buy whatever you want. But when you actually complain when another race actually gets even a small hand up because you want your funnybooks to stay the way they always have been, then your priorities are off.

and I can also criticize the things I buy, I care more about the story in the comics I buy than this diversity push and I don't think most black people give a sh*t and the idea that it's black people 99% of the time is very America centric.

My priorities are that when I spend my money I get to spend it on what I want, if I give some of that to help people that's up to me, if I then go and decide to buy comics for me that's up to me.

Who the hell are you to judge me for wanting to spend money on what I want. Like I saidn when it comes to comics I'm not donating to a charity and I shouldn't be forced to, especially not a really sh*t one. My priorities are wrong?! how pretentious.

You can want this change if that's your personnel prefrence but to expect other people to want it or be wrong on thinking otherwise is truly entitled

[JBatmanFan05]

Well said Dextersinister. DC forces radical changes on readers (read it or leave, no classic for you) when they'd sell their own mothers for an extra buck (and don't care at all about diversity), and how dare you not support DC's shameless coercive maneuvering to cater to Hollywood/TV execs.

[Blacksun]

Wally already had a asian wife, two mixed race kids.

[GlennSimpson]

and I can also criticize the things I buy, I care more about the story in the comics I buy than this diversity push

Yes, that would be the problem.

Look, I can't make people be better people, all I can do is give my opinion, which is that diversity is more important than nostalgia.

[Sirzechs]

Jesus Christ Milestone Media outright said their branching out from DC to other publishers are the excuses that DC are the ones that aren't using said characters is still being tossed around?

[C-Dot]

Neither does Dial H, Resurrection Man, Antman, Ted Kord, Ray Palmer, Grifter, Booster Gold, Jonah Hex, Constantine (does well in trades) and plenty of white characters I can toss out.

Why is it an issue with just minorities? Why are we constantly seeing minorities (Mainly black ones) get singled out?

1998-2011 we saw 100+ solo stories starring Black Panther.
Steel had 52
Cassandra Cain had 70+
Static had 43
Icon had 44
Hardware had 50
Jason Rusch had 35
War Machine had 25
Deathlok had 33
Jaime Reyes had 36
Luke Cage had 50 (then 75 more with Iron Fist)
John Stewart had 18 (and had decent sales before Hal went nuts)
Miles Morales had 36
Black Lighting had 13
Night Trasher had 21
Spawn is at 200+
Malcolm Dragon (Savage Dragon) 40+ (if you count when the book began to focus on him than his Dad)
Batwing at 36

Most of these books lasted at least 3 years. Funny how a three year run isn't good enough for all these minorities.

If those books couldn't sell-they don't make year 2 let alone 3 years.

With the way Marvel & Dc restart books-it's hard to really count if a book is axed due to sales or something else.

So lets TOSS "the minorities don't sell crap" out the door. They have sold in the past and in the present.

The issue we are having is what to do once we get some success and to NOT try to undo it. Of course that is hard when fanboys runs the company.

EXACTLY

And let's not forget minorities in ensemble books too. AND in non-superhero related comics.

Saying "minorities don't sell" to justify racechanging or saying it period is not only wrong, it's downright insulting. Especially to the various demographics that the characters of color are a part of. And to say that the most viable way to make it is essentially being a palette swapped white character is insulting as well. Yeah nevermind the popular characters of color that have been established (and no 'revisionist BS' here). Nevermind the ones that could be utilized but in limbo or killed off. Nevermind the crossover hits like one hero in particular with a multiple season Emmy award winning TV series. And all of that outnumbers the "racechanged " by a landslide. (And yes, Nick Fury is a different case when Marcus Johnson exists in the mainstream and didn't erase previous Nick.)

"Diversity" and "Inclusive" isn't erasure of folks. It's including and utilizing folks.

Say what you will about Kamala Khan, but I'm glad Wilson ignored the "minorities don't sell" mess. I'm glad a lot of creators, past and present, ignored that. And I'm definitely glad that independent writers don't subscribe to that as well.

The whole thing is funny.....especially when this thread is talking about a supporting character in a book and not a lead.

(Oh and the thoughts of "they would be interested in a raceswapped hero based solely on the single cosmetic change and nothing else"....sounds bananas to you? Sure does to me. Yeah and the kid that didn't buy "The Movement" doesn't want diversity and is wrong for not getting it based on the book not being his or her taste in stories....that is bananas too.)

[Kyer]

Well said Dextersinister. DC forces radical changes on readers (read it or leave, no classic for you) when they'd sell their own mothers for an extra buck (and don't care at all about diversity), and how dare you not support DC's shameless coercive maneuvering to cater to Hollywood/TV execs.

Truly.
At least I'm whining about a classic character being changed and not harping on about how there are not enough A-ranking awesome Hispanic women characters in DC and that this is some sort of travesty of justice that must be rectified by an act of Congress and/or Hollywood.

Race is a matter of DNA. Nobody should have to apologize for their DNA. Nobody should be praised on account of their DNA. If everyone ceased harping on the supposed levels of differences or merits between DNA then maybe, just maybe, our kids could grow up not being fooled that it even matters and the whole thing could finally be dropped within a generation or two, but hopefully far less, as the sheer stupidity it is.

It's the personality and what is done that matters. Everything else is window dressing. At most what is affected is potential genetic dispositions to diseases and ability to stay out in the sun without getting sunburned for such and such a length of time.

So there should be no sin in fictional Wally being white nor in fictional Vixen being black. His being created a white guy doesn't matter in itself. What matters (to me) is that he was created white by the guy/s who created him decades ago just as Vixen was created a black women.

Rest assured that if Vixen had been or will be race bended as a Hispanic female I'd become royally ticked even though she's not even in my Top Five favorites.

[Cold Water]

At this point who cares? We had Wally for years and years why do we have to obsess over what came "first". We should just accept the new Wally and enjoy the old Wally.

No. If we get the original Wally back FOR GOOD, then I have no problem with the rest of what you said.
There are so many things wrong with the concept of a New Wally and it doesn't fall on the character (which would make no sense since a character is fictional), but falls on DC.
And I hope that it's fixed soon. Because DC gets none of my monies until Original Wally West comes back. For good.

[Dextersinister]

Yes, that would be the problem.

Look, I can't make people be better people, all I can do is give my opinion, which is that diversity is more important than nostalgia.

You think that people not caring about this poorly handled diversity push is a problem, I could compare it to donating to charity instead of buying the comic in the first place which again isn't a problem but that wouldn't be a good comparison because at least we know that donating to charity does some actual good.

I can say that if this is about other people then you would be better of donating but it isn't, it's about you mistaking your personnel preference for what it morally right. If you want to go help black specifically go ahead, that's your choice but there are almost no black people where I am from and I don't have any of that white guilt, my area has it's own issues so I just don't care that much, like I said, a very America centric thing

Also you are using the whole nostalgia thing wrong when it's the writers choice to invoke nostalgia by using the name Wally West and all the history that went with it.

[Cold Water]

Look, I can't make people be better people, all I can do is give my opinion, which is that diversity is more important than nostalgia.

But we deserve BOTH.
And original Wally fans shouldn't have to be shunned as Nostalgic Douchebags when we pull our money away from DC and complain about Original Wally being, not just removed from existence without an in-story reason, but then replaced, ENTIRELY, for the sake of "diversity". It's BS and you know it.

[GlennSimpson]

But we deserve BOTH.
And original Wally fans shouldn't have to be shunned as Nostalgic Douchebags when we pull our money away from DC and complain about Original Wally being, not just removed from existence without an in-story reason, but then replaced, ENTIRELY, for the sake of "diversity". It's BS and you know it.

No, it's not. Having something change because it might make the world a little better place is not something to complain about.

And there was absolutely an in-story reason - Flashpoint changed history and in the new history Wally is different.

EDIT: And you already have both. Superman is still white; Batman is still white, Nightwing, Barry Allen, Hal Jordan etc. There are plenty of characters who are still their traditional color/gender/orientation.

[GlennSimpson]

You think that people not caring about this poorly handled diversity push is a problem, I could compare it to donating to charity instead of buying the comic in the first place which again isn't a problem but that wouldn't be a good comparison because at least we know that donating to charity does some actual good.

I can say that if this is about other people then you would be better of donating but it isn't, it's about you mistaking your personnel preference for what it morally right. If you want to go help black specifically go ahead, that's your choice but there are almost no black people where I am from and I don't have any of that white guilt, my area has it's own issues so I just don't care that much, like I said, a very America centric thing

Also you are using the whole nostalgia thing wrong when it's the writers choice to invoke nostalgia by using the name Wally West and all the history that went with it.

Your ignorance of race issues is not an excuse. Watch some TV.

And sure, Wally is Wally out of nostalgia. A little bit is fine. Insisting a 2nd tier fictional character should be white only because he was always white is taking it too far. He's still a younger person who Barry is/will be a mentor to. That's the traditional "Wally West" role. But anything after that is up for grabs.

And I really don't care whether Wally is white or black or whatever in terms of "personal preference" as it relates to reading the stories, if that's what you mean. But the last thing I'd ever imagine doing is complaining when a group who has traditionally gotten the shaft (no pun intended) gets a little help.

[Trident]

No, it's not. Having something change because it might make the world a little better place is not something to complain about.

And there was absolutely an in-story reason - Flashpoint changed history and in the new history Wally is different.

EDIT: And you already have both. Superman is still white; Batman is still white, Nightwing, Barry Allen, Hal Jordan etc. There are plenty of characters who are still their traditional color/gender/orientation.

This notion you have is so misconscrewed that it is laughable.

DC didn't give us true diversity through NuWally West. What they did was gives up a broken hand me down that is full of sterotipycal tropes that are to a point of being insulting.

Racebending Characters doesn't help either side and in the end just promotes half assed charater creation and development, and division between the fans. Which in return effect sales numbers.