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  1. #76
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    What's the point of having a brand new story telling universe if every darn character has to be the same as he was before??

    And...I think what a lot of the anti-new guy posters are (implicitly) forgetting is that the "original" Wally West was the new guy himself once... and only had the room to grow and develop because at appropriate time Barry Allen was removed from scene. And before that Barry himself wasn't the original Flash.

    It's the story that counts ultimately...and the story options are severely weakened if characters can't develop, and ultimately retire/ die. Otherwise DC super hero comics become trapped in cartoon conventions even more firmly than now.

    Whether new Wally is white, black or green...it really doesn't matter. The writers make it all up...they are not reporting actual adventures. Give the writers and editors a bit of flexibility....change, real change is needed for worthwhile story telling...changing the design of the costumes from time to time doesn't cut it.
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  2. #77
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    What's the point of having a brand new story telling universe if every darn character has to be the same as he was before??

    And...I think what a lot of the anti-new guy posters are (implicitly) forgetting is that the "original" Wally West was the new guy himself once... and only had the room to grow and develop because at appropriate time Barry Allen was removed from scene. And before that Barry himself wasn't the original Flash.

    It's the story that counts ultimately...and the story options are severely weakened if characters can't develop, and ultimately retire/ die. Otherwise DC super hero comics become trapped in cartoon conventions even more firmly than now.

    Whether new Wally is white, black or green...it really doesn't matter. The writers make it all up...they are not reporting actual adventures. Give the writers and editors a bit of flexibility....change, real change is needed for worthwhile story telling...changing the design of the costumes from time to time doesn't cut it.
    Wally had years of development outside of being Flash though in the Titans series. Not like you have to kill off a character to develop a new one. He was already a well defined character before taking on the Flash mantel.

    Honestly, turning Wally black and into a 12 year old was dumb. It essentially destroys both characters. The old Wally people actually want to read about and this new Wally that is just Wally in name. You suffocate both characters by trying to merge them together. It doesn't work. You are basically setting up this new Wally for immediate failure because you are already painting him against a version that has had 50+ years of history.

    People aren't going to drop the Flash book because Wally is there or not there. They are reading it for Flash in the end and if they had brought in a new character or this awful New 52 version of Wally the sales would be exactly the same. I mean they changed his race to fit with a TV show version that isn't even on TV yet, but all those millions of TV viewers aren't going to suddenly jump on the ongoing Flash comics and start reading them. That just doesn't happen. It's a different type of audience which is why I am fine with completely redefining characters, like race or gender, in movies and TV, I'd love for there to be a movie with a black Superman or a Batman one day, because they are a different medium and not this long form story telling. You are reaching different people.

    The Batman line is the most successful comic line currently and it is so far removed from any other interpretations of the franchise in other media that it proves you don't need this synergy between comics and other media to be successful. It's comics so there is enough room for both characters. Just like how Marvel wanted a black Spider-man, a Muslim Ms Marvel, a female Thor or how the Young Justice show created a black Aqualad. You can create new characters while still paying respect to the old version. This New 52 Wally could have been a brand new character and would have much more freedom to grow instead of readers constantly complaining how he isn't the real Wally. I just feel like what they have done was set up this character for failure when they actually could have done something with him.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    Honestly, turning Wally black and into a 12 year old was dumb. It essentially destroys both characters. The old Wally people actually want to read about and this new Wally that is just Wally in name. You suffocate both characters by trying to merge them together. It doesn't work. You are basically setting up this new Wally for immediate failure because you are already painting him against a version that has had 50+ years of history.
    I'm not a fan of making Wally black.

    However, I think many Wally fans want the end product of his journey from fan to sidekick to peer hero; what I consider Wally to be is that entire journey, not just the end point. With setting the clock back for ALL the heroes, not just Wally, that end product is not possible. And it pretty much sabotages the character to have that final product without the growth along the way.

    Of course a 12 year old Wally is a regression; the entire new 52 is a regression, and it would have been even if you changed not one iota of the Wally West backstory in the new 52. No matter what, you're going to get the story of Wally West's growth (and, like before, it's going to include a few wrong turns).

  4. #79
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    Maybe this Wally will pull a "Beast Boy" and change back to the color people are used to without any explanation.

  5. #80

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    DC should just reveal that this kid's full name isn't Wally West. Give him a name in front of Wally or say Wally was just a pseudonym, and introduce another kid as the real Wally West that resembles a pre 52 Wally. I mean if they can retcon Bart Allen, they can fix this too.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Explain what about him? How he fits into Lantern history now? I imagine in about the same way he did before. Hal was Parallax, Kyle took over. Barry Allen however, never died in a Crisis or, from what we know, spent any substantial time away during the five year gap. Wally's most defining moment never happened. Kyle's did.

    Or do you mean something else?
    The Green Lantern History is what I meant.

  7. #82
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    What's the point of having a brand new story telling universe if every darn character has to be the same as he was before??
    Sure, wonder woman is lois lane

    Batman is cassandra cain

    superman is captain Atom.

    it's because they already have fans and people like them

    Quote Originally Posted by KurtW95 View Post
    A lot of the current writers say that it's impossible to create new minority characters that people will buy. But that's not true. If it's a good writer and a good character, people will buy it. The problem is that some people will buy old characters no matter what and completely igonore who's writing it. If said writer creates a decent minority character and write them well, they will catch on. See Static. I mean people didn't use to be afraid to create new minority characters, but now people write off the idea unless they happen to be a legacy character. Replacing old characters or changing existing ones is just flatout lazy and not the way to go.
    maybe they just doesn't want to crete new characters that they won't won money on it. Much better do creator owned work and cash into it
    Last edited by Blacksun; 04-04-2015 at 05:45 PM.

  8. #83
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    Lol. All of a sudden a lot of "black" people on these forums completely upset about this.

    If you use terms like "PC" and "SJW" when it comes to women, BOOM ban-hammer. When it comes to minorities, nothing. Way to go Jonah and Co.

    People really show their true colors when anonymity is guaranteed.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Frank Millar's Batman would like to have a word with you. At the time Dark Knight Returns was published, Batman hadn't been a dark and edgy character for decades.

    As for this Wally, the skin color is a non-issue. Being white never defined Wally, so being black wont define him now (other than perhaps in the eyes of some fans) The bigger problem is fan expectations. Wally, no matter what he looked like, was never going to be accepted in the 52 because Wally was so dependent on the continuity of post-Crisis. Unlike many other characters, Wally was deeply defined by his own history, rather than just the idea of it. With most major characters you can change the details and they remain the same. Superman is still Superman whether the Kents are alive or not or whether Krypton was art-deco or full of weird crystals and people in starched dresses. Wally however, requires his history to be the same character (he's very much an indie type character in that sense). And that history no longer exists. The closest you can get is a rough approximation, and that's only going to appease some people (such as with the Young Justice cartoon).

    If DC really wants to "fix" this Wally, they need to start his character development. Right now he's in a pre-origin phase; Wally, depending on the version, came from a troubled home. That, along with the stuff with Daniel and the trauma Central City has suffered, explains 52 Wally's bad attitude. So DC needs to have him move past that by embracing Flash as an idol to look up to. He already is building a friendship with Barry so that part of things is already covered. Have him get speed powers and a costume that very, very, very much resembles the comics' version of Kid Flash (that similarity will help offset the race change and keep the primary visual intact). Basically, write him like a young version of classic Wally (most of the community hasnt actually read those old stories), and people will begin to get over the skin color. I personally would also like to see him aged up somehow so he's closer in age to Nightwing and Cyborg, but that's not really a must; it would just get him more in-line with the version fans remember best.

    And red hair. Red hair is, outside of the costume, Wally's most defining feature. It's as important as Superman's spit curl. Wally doesnt have to be white but he does need to be a red head.
    Very well said. All of it.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyer View Post
    I agree with everything but the last. We (the Wally West fans of 2009 and prior) are worse off than before for their making a stereotypical black kid and slapping the title 'Wally West' on him because somebody high up wanted there to be a black Wally or no Wally and thus TV black Wally (who as yet doesn't actually exist on the show's first season and who knows when/if he'll show in the second one?) meant this (for some reason even though TV and comic worlds are supposed to be different puppies):

    no actual Wally in either media.

    I'm definitely worse off because this entire mess has made me lose a ton of interest in comic-book heroes in any media. Why bother loving these characters when their owners are going to pretzel them into some unrecognizable shape later on anyway? I can't enjoy the TV show anymore after that interview with the producer about Wally West always being black from now on. I can't enjoy the Flash books even if I know a particular issue won't feather black Wally West. I can't enjoy anything with 'DC' stamped on it anymore even as my favorite DC characters still catch my eye simply because I grew up loving these characters.

    Worst of all, I actually viewed the Convergence: Speed Force #1 preview just minutes ago and could not drum up any feelings of excitement because (as much as I LOVE Wally) I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop. Seriously. I read the whole thing and all I could do was critique the art because there's this dull feeling inside that just knows that DC is going to use this to stick it to me and others with similar feelings like mine about Wally and where DC is/has headed.

    I've no idea where DC is headed unless maybe it's off a cliff and lately I find myself increasingly not much caring whether they go boom or bust.

    All because some idiot thought it would be a grand idea to bring diversity to The Flash by switching two established biracial Asian kids for one Name.Only African biracial kid. We could have had Irey as Kid Flash. Or we could have had Danice as a proven Kid Flash. Instead we got the worst possible choice shoved down our craw: a changeling child Wally.

    I'm bone weary bitter. Now if only could forget the decades-old characters like I'm more than willing to forget DC the company.
    Oh how ever will you manage? Privilege is such a burden.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by KurtW95 View Post
    A lot of the current writers say that it's impossible to create new minority characters that people will buy. But that's not true. If it's a good writer and a good character, people will buy it. The problem is that some people will buy old characters no matter what and completely igonore who's writing it. If said writer creates a decent minority character and write them well, they will catch on. See Static. I mean people didn't use to be afraid to create new minority characters, but now people write off the idea unless they happen to be a legacy character. Replacing old characters or changing existing ones is just flatout lazy and not the way to go.
    Name one original minority character that sells.

    That's what I thought.

  12. #87
    Astonishing Member Triple J's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KurtW95 View Post
    A lot of the current writers say that it's impossible to create new minority characters that people will buy. But that's not true. If it's a good writer and a good character, people will buy it. The problem is that some people will buy old characters no matter what and completely igonore who's writing it. If said writer creates a decent minority character and write them well, they will catch on. See Static. I mean people didn't use to be afraid to create new minority characters, but now people write off the idea unless they happen to be a legacy character. Replacing old characters or changing existing ones is just flatout lazy and not the way to go.
    That's not how the market works.

    Just because you have something awesome doesn't mean it will sell well. You have to market it well, and that can be hard at times, especially with the comic book audience.

    Not impossible, but hard.

    Of course, maintaining good sales over large periods of time - consistency is another matter entirely. Superheroes are here to stay, unlike the characters of indie books (I mention Indie because they do sell well, relatively speaking, even though the books/characters are brand new).
    DC Extended Universe Thread (DCEU)

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  13. #88
    Astonishing Member Triple J's Avatar
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    I am fine with changing race (In fact, I think both DC and Marvel should do more of it - their characters are mostly Caucasian), so long as they develop the character (to be more representative of the real world) - would love to see more superheroes from other countries/regions of the world, instead of just US.

    (To the most part, the characters remain the same. But, their culture/identity can make tiny differences in their personality).

    What I didn't like about the new 52 version is going with the usual stereotypes associated with African Americans. Don't need all that..give the book to a good writer, let them develop this new version.
    DC Extended Universe Thread (DCEU)

    That's how it starts. The fever. The rage. The feeling of powerlessness. That turns good men....Cruel - Alfred.

    This may be the only thing that I do that matters - Bruce.

    Stay down, if I wanted it, you would be dead already - Clark.

  14. #89
    Nostalgia Fanwanker Pharozonk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCFanSince88 View Post
    Name one original minority character that sells.

    That's what I thought.
    Black Panther, Storm, John Stewart, etc.
    "In any time, there will always be a need for heroes." - the Time Trapper, Legion of Superheroes #61(1994)

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  15. #90
    Veteran Green Lantern Sirzechs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pharozonk View Post
    Black Panther, Storm, John Stewart, etc.
    BP doesn't have book at the moment and Storm is on the verge of being cancelled ( there was even a hashtag movement and free #1s to get the sales up.)
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