Where do we go from here with the Wally West of the new 52 ?

[Waterfall]

Ms. Marvel sells less than 30,000 copies. Down 40% from it's opening issue. Digital might be saving this book, but it's not a hit by any means.

No, it's not? It doesn't sell Harley Quinn levels but it's selling on the same scope as Flash and Teen Titans.

That's a HUGE success for a new character and compared to her superior, Carol too.

[Ascended]

Ms. Marvels selling better than her white predecessor.

If you put your heart into character, it sells regardless of race.

That's a fallacy propped up with one of the very rare and very few successes. Its sort of like looking at a guy who won the lottery and saying "everyone can do it."

This is one of the arguments that annoys me the most about this particular topic. No, new characters don't typically sell, regardless of race or quality. They dont. For every success like Ms. Marvel or Batwoman (and even she's been cancelled) there's a mountain of failed attempts. OMAC, Static, the new Ghost Rider.....the list is endless, but people will point to that one character who caught on for whatever reason as if it's easy. How many people still talk about how great OMAC was? Or Dial H? Those were great books but they didn't sell. I hear Ghost Rider was really good too, but that didnt sell. New characters have a hard time catching on in this market, and quality has almost nothing to do with it. Neither does race, for that matter. So no, DC cant just introduce a bunch of new characters who happen to be minorities and fix their unbalanced diversity that way. They can (and do) introduce new characters, but that in and of itself wont fix things. Therefore, what other avenue is there? Race changing established characters who are popular enough to sell regardless of skin tone. Its not a great solution, but there's no perfect answer to this problem.

I'm a fan of Wally West and the race changing didn't really bother me so much as the way it was handled. I think the bigger problems with nuWally are his drastic age reduction and reliance on stereotypes in his story. The common defense of race changing for a given character is that changing their race isn't a big deal because their race isn't central to them. That was the case for Helena Bertinelli, as making her darker didn't really effect and she's still the Italian woman we love. However, the race change inadvertently did change Wally's character. He now has [totally justified] trouble with the police which unfortunately coincided with his race change. On top of this, his massive age reduction makes it very difficult for him to connect with the characters he's always been connected to like Dick Grayson or Cyborg. Not only that, but he's even younger than the generation of heroes that used to [sort of] look up to his generation. He's a totally different character now and not just in the traditional reboot sense.

I think overall, he's debut and everything was just poorly planned altogether and I hope going forward they touch up the character to make him resemble his former self. They can keep him biracial, but he really should be in his 20s and a more experienced hero than "Bart".

Also, as a redhead myself, I would appreciate Wally being a redhead again. Black people can have red hair too, it's not strictly for traditional gingers.

Well said and agreed. DC can salvage the mess that is Wally, they just have to get the character back into a more familiar shape. Which wouldnt be that hard really. And honestly, fans need to accept that no matter what his skin color is, Wally is never going to be the same character again. All his defining moments no longer happened and will never happen in the same way again. It doesnt matter what he looks like, the post-Crisis Wally is something we'll never see again, and the best possible thing DC could do is give us a close approximation.

[Triple J]

Agreed. Venditti and Jensen have really dropped the ball. The book needs a new creative team that will elevate Barry and Wally. Maybe this should have been the book taken over by the TV people, not Green Arrow.

Do you think DC intentionally puts "bad" writers on books? Or has "good" writers beating down their door to work on corporately-owned characters?

There aren't enough "good" writers who can take a relatively unpopular or convoluted or difficult concept and still make it sell.

Oh, no that's not what I meant. I was referring to the new version..the race change is fine..but stereotyping him, didn't like that at all. Of course, that doesn't make Venditti a bad writer; I just think he made some poor choices with the book/the new version of Wally.

Of course, selling the book is another matter entirely, partly independent of the quality of the book. But, getting another writer, who perhaps might develop the character a bit more (instead of reducing the new version to just stereotypes) might help with selling the book (perhaps not a big difference, but it will certainly make the book more appealing at least to Flash fans).

[Sirzechs]

Idk how these guys come do some much harm, they should have let someone else handle the revamp in miniseries or something, I look at Vibe who was just a walking stereotype got turned into a great character in both comics and tv, how did two writers manage to do this.

[Blacksun]

No, it's not? It doesn't sell Harley Quinn levels but it's selling on the same scope as Flash and Teen Titans.

That's a HUGE success for a new character and compared to her superior, Carol too.

Ms Marvel is selling better than the inhumans book

[JBatmanFan05]

Wally is why the New 52 already needs its Zero Hour. To make the New 52 more like the pre-FP DCU.

[colonyofcells]

One way to use Wally West is as a villain like the Dark Flash.

[Mia]

Lol. All of a sudden a lot of "black" people on these forums completely upset about this.

If you use terms like "PC" and "SJW" when it comes to women, BOOM ban-hammer. When it comes to minorities, nothing. Way to go Jonah and Co.

People really show their true colors when anonymity is guaranteed.

No there haven't been a lot of Black people who are 'suddenly' upset by this. We've been complaining for months. The new PC version of Wally...hell he's not even PC since he was introduced as a stereotypical angry black hoodlum who needs a white man to set him straight. Goodness gracious. Instead of this horrible re-introduction of a character who no one likes. DC should spend more money on the African/Black characters they already have.

[Tofali]

Why is the whole stereotype blame put on the writer? Shouldnt the editor have caught that?

[colonyofcells]

Hopefully, dc will have better writers who can give a more interesting personality to new 52 Wally West.

[Blacksun]

That's a fallacy propped up with one of the very rare and very few successes. Its sort of like looking at a guy who won the lottery and saying "everyone can do it."

This is one of the arguments that annoys me the most about this particular topic. No, new characters don't typically sell, regardless of race or quality. They dont. For every success like Ms. Marvel or Batwoman (and even she's been cancelled) there's a mountain of failed attempts. OMAC, Static, the new Ghost Rider.....the list is endless, but people will point to that one character who caught on for whatever reason as if it's easy. How many people still talk about how great OMAC was? Or Dial H? Those were great books but they didn't sell. I hear Ghost Rider was really good too, but that didnt sell. New characters have a hard time catching on in this market, and quality has almost nothing to do with it. Neither does race, for that matter. So no, DC cant just introduce a bunch of new characters who happen to be minorities and fix their unbalanced diversity that way. They can (and do) introduce new characters, but that in and of itself wont fix things. Therefore, what other avenue is there? Race changing established characters who are popular enough to sell regardless of skin tone. Its not a great solution, but there's no perfect answer to this problem.

Well Ghost rider never sold so well, it had many cancelled volumes. Anyway Ms Marvel and batwoman showed a formula that can work if done right. Problem with Reyes on Ghost rider is that the character that most people don't care. Ms Marvel has all the marketing: legacy, carol corps. muslim superhero.
now new wally west didn't followed this formula. So there is space for new minority characers? hell yes.

Anyway I think is okay make Superman Black? with a personality that isn't superman-ish, because representation matters.

Wally is a favorite character from a lot of people, if they like him redhead and acting with law it is their right. DC shouldn'g had changed his race and personality. he only has the name of Wally.

it's comic change the race of a supporting character, but big guys like Superman and Flash keep the whiteness and most of the times the decency.

No there haven't been a lot of Black people who are 'suddenly' upset by this. We've been complaining for months. The new PC version of Wally...hell he's not even PC since he was introduced as a stereotypical angry black hoodlum who needs a white man to set him straight. Goodness gracious. Instead of this horrible re-introduction of a character who no one likes. DC should spend more money on the African/Black characters they already have.

Right. you are so right.

u know if new wally was a good role model black character not a gross stereotype and if DC didn't had many great black characters already existing, the excuse: "great new characters is too hard, market won't accept" could be valid.

[skyvolt2000]

Idk how these guys come do some much harm, they should have let someone else handle the revamp in miniseries or something, I look at Vibe who was just a walking stereotype got turned into a great character in both comics and tv, how did two writers manage to do this.

The difference between Vibe & Flash is one has a ton of cooks in the kitchen.

Vibe was dead for 20+ years and that gave those writers the chance to do whatever they wanted.

Flash is another beast that deals with comics, tv show & movies. Everybody wants their version instead of working together for the best one. Same issue with Wonder Woman & Hal Jordan.

For every success like Ms. Marvel or Batwoman (and even she's been cancelled) there's a mountain of failed attempts. OMAC, Static, the new Ghost Rider.....the list is endless

Static has been around for 20 years. Static had a 44 issue run series and a 52 episode show before that abortion of a series. He's not new.

MS Marvel wasn't suppose to make 7 issues (Marvel confessed to that). Word of mouth about how good it was helped it. That wasn't going to work for Static. That falls on Scott McDaniel for throwing whatever he wanted on the wall to see if it sticks.

Omac & Vibe were victims of good review and too few issues to try before it was too late. Those good reviews from those short lived books is what kept them around in other books.

Race changing established characters who are popular enough to sell regardless of skin tone. Its not a great solution, but there's no perfect answer to this problem.

You don't tick off an entire fanbase (Wally) in the name of diversity. All you did was bring on hatred for a minority character and add more fuel to the fire to those who HATE minority characters.

It's not a great solution-it's an OFFENSIVE solution.

You want a black boy in Flash-let Barry adopted one.

Understand something about race changing-a Flash book with a black Wally West book will fail. Who is going to buys it? Not Wally fans. Not readers who are sick and tired of race changing characters. Not the fans of diversity as this is not what they asked Dc to do.

And when it fails all DC will do is use it as MORE justification to not use minorities in any book or try solos. So now you have Static, Cyborg, Cassandra Cain, John Stewart, Hawkgirl, Steel and other minority fans ticked off.

You want minorities to sell? USE them beyond that solo book. USE them beyond that team book. USE them in events outside of getting killed off or being seen in a panel knocked out. USE them in team ups. Use them in promotional materials. USE them in tv shows. IN other words do to them what you did for Harley Quinn.

Something is not right when Cyborg is the only original created minority hero (not counting Waller & Killer Croc) active in both comics and broadcast media. You are not helping your minority population with race changing.

[Buried Alien]

One way to use Wally West is as a villain like the Dark Flash.

Few people would support this idea; my expectation is that it would be extremely unpopular.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Sirzechs]

Few people would support this idea; my expectation is that it would be extremely unpopular.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Parallax Wally......yup people would definitely be pissed, like Donna fans are right now.

[colonyofcells]

Maybe Barry can continue to be the speed force flash and Wally West can be the Mopee Flash.