Well, can we fix the Amazons and if so how do you go about doing it?

[numberthirty]

Why should any one of those groups stand out? Let's see......because Wonder Woman is an Amazon and this is a Wonder Woman sub-forum.

I've explained why I feel they're in the league of the Nazis so I'm not sure what more you want from me?

That they are Amazons doesn't have anything to do with that, as far as numbers, they probably don't even stand out in the history of sailor killing groups. Let alone stand out enough to get into the company you are trying to put them in.

[Silvanus]

I disagree that the Amazons don't want to exterminate the entire male population.

The Holocaust wasn't about just "wanting" to exterminate a population; it was about intending and planning to exterminate populations and actually putting that monstrous plan--that "Final Solution," as they called it--into operation. It was a massive, concerted, systematic, intense and total effort at annihilation.

If the Amazons planned annihilate all men, or even just all men in neighboring nations, by destroying a few ships every 33 years, and doing nothing about it during the remaining 97+ years out of 100, then that must have been the weakest, slowest plan in history. If the Amazons had made an unholy alliance with Circe, or perhaps gone in search of Eclipso's jewel to use it as a weapon of mass destruction, and if they had then inflicted really massive casualties and uprooted and tortured the male population of neighboring countries, then maybe there would be a comparison to be made. But that's not the story.

[Dr. Poison]

That they are Amazons doesn't have anything to do with that, as far as numbers, they probably don't even stand out in the history of sailor killing groups. Let alone stand out enough to get into the company you are trying to put them in.

Ok, you're right. Is there anything else I need to say to get you to stop replying to me? I'm really not up for interacting with people who only reply when they want to disagree. I'm sorry but I don't care for regular negativity when this is supposed to be a form of leisure and fun for me.

[Silvanus]

You're quite creative, do you have any ideas regarding what you might add here?

Thank you, and yes. Though it's nothing particularly creative. First, I'd build on Divergence #1, which suggested that the Amazons came into the world with an anti-war mission but were not allowed by their belligerent neighbors (including Hercules) to live in peace. And I'd connect that to the conversation between Dessa and Diana, which suggested that the Amazons had been doing what they thought they needed to do in order to survive. So, I'd show what the men did to make the Amazons feel this to be true. It might be fairly like Perez. I don't think this needed to happen in the first run of this continuity, but I think it could be useful at some point.

Then (or maybe even before that--I'm flexible) I'd show that Hecate and/or Strife manipulated the Amazons into continuing their defensive attitudes and practices far longer than they otherwise would have. Or, your Hera plan would work for me. I'd just stop short of complete mind control, so that the Amazons would still have need to seek redemption.

You also mention you feel it would be a copout to make the Amazon's behavior mind-control. I find this kind of funny given the context of Greek myth. Hercules killing his wife and kids is often attributed to Hera, but how often is that explanation looked at as a copout?

I think it's hard to consider it a copout, considering that he lost his family and then, depending the version, was exiled and/or made to perform his twelve labors. He also expressed a lot of shame and guilt in Euripides' tragedy. I don't think the Greeks saw his madness as absolving him from responsibility. They seem to have seen it more as a part of his nature which Hera and her allies or servants [Iris and the goddess Madness, according to Euripides] unleashed. I could be wrong, but I think we would tend to see total mind control as completely absolving the Amazons, and that's why it seems to me that it would be a copout. I want to see their responsibility for their actions mitigated, but not totally removed. (I also wouldn't let Hercules' responsibility for his actions be removed.)

Part of the reason I feel this way, I will admit, is that every time I think about this, I think about our old friend Rob always saying what a copout mind control would be. What can I say? I'm impressionable. (And yes--I just invoked the Judge! )

[Agent Z]

I think it's hard to consider it a copout, considering that he lost his family and then, depending the version, was exiled and/or made to perform his twelve labors. He also expressed a lot of shame and guilt in Euripides' tragedy. I don't think the Greeks saw his madness as absolving him from responsibility. They seem to have seen it more as a part of his nature which Hera and her allies or servants [Iris and the goddess Madness, according to Euripides] unleashed. I could be wrong, but I think we would tend to see total mind control as completely absolving the Amazons, and that's why it seems to me that it would be a copout. I want to see their responsibility for their actions mitigated, but not totally removed. (I also wouldn't let Hercules' responsibility for his actions be removed.)

Regardless of how it's described, he's still made to do something he did not want by an outside force. And the Greeks may not have seen this as absolving him of his crimes, but there's a lot of their beliefs that modern audiences do not agree with.

[Awonder]

Regardless of how it's described, he's still made to do something he did not want by an outside force. And the Greeks may not have seen this as absolving him of his crimes, but there's a lot of their beliefs that modern audiences do not agree with.

And, modern audiences have (arguably) often white-washed him even further. His is often the hero's story, not the redemption story.

Thank you, and yes. Though it's nothing particularly creative. First, I'd build on Divergence #1, which suggested that the Amazons came into the world with an anti-war mission but were not allowed by their belligerent neighbors (including Hercules) to live in peace. And I'd connect that to the conversation between Dessa and Diana, which suggested that the Amazons had been doing what they thought they needed to do in order to survive. So, I'd show what the men did to make the Amazons feel this to be true. It might be fairly like Perez. I don't think this needed to happen in the first run of this continuity, but I think it could be useful at some point.

Then (or maybe even before that--I'm flexible) I'd show that Hecate and/or Strife manipulated the Amazons into continuing their defensive attitudes and practices far longer than they otherwise would have. Or, your Hera plan would work for me. I'd just stop short of complete mind control, so that the Amazons would still have need to seek redemption.



I think it's hard to consider it a copout, considering that he lost his family and then, depending the version, was exiled and/or made to perform his twelve labors. He also expressed a lot of shame and guilt in Euripides' tragedy. I don't think the Greeks saw his madness as absolving him from responsibility. They seem to have seen it more as a part of his nature which Hera and her allies or servants [Iris and the goddess Madness, according to Euripides] unleashed. I could be wrong, but I think we would tend to see total mind control as completely absolving the Amazons, and that's why it seems to me that it would be a copout. I want to see their responsibility for their actions mitigated, but not totally removed. (I also wouldn't let Hercules' responsibility for his actions be removed.)

Part of the reason I feel this way, I will admit, is that every time I think about this, I think about our old friend Rob always saying what a copout mind control would be. What can I say? I'm impressionable. (And yes--I just invoked the Judge! )

Yes, Rob leaves a strong impression.

Ok, so we agree that context for the Amazons - the world they evolved from - would be a good idea? We just don't agree that it should have been in Azzarello's run?

We agree that divine interference may help explain things. Here, too, imo, should have been in Azzarello's run.

I don't think we agree on Amazon redemption. From my view, you seem to see it as needed, whereas I think the whole thing was avoided. Why do you see it as such a need for a modern WW story?

[Silvanus]

Regardless of how it's described, he's still made to do something he did not want by an outside force.

Right, but it wasn't a cop-out, in its own cultural context, because he wasn't absolved in his own or others' eyes and he had to pay a steep price for whatever redemption he was able to get. In a modern context, if one wanted to keep the drama that comes from personal responsibility, one would probably have to write it a little differently in order to make clear that he was at least partially responsible.

And the Greeks may not have seen this as absolving him of his crimes, but there's a lot of their beliefs that modern audiences do not agree with.

Exactly--as I said, "I think we [meaning we today, as opposed the ancient Greeks] would tend to see total mind control as completely absolving the Amazons, and that's why it seems to me that it would be a copout." I'd write both Hercules and the Amazons as being manipulated or coerced or psychically "pushed," but not completely mind-controlled, so that their responsibility would be mitigated but not removed.

I don't think we agree on Amazon redemption. From my view, you seem to see it as needed, whereas I think the whole thing was avoided. Why do you see it as such a need for a modern WW story?

Actually, I wouldn't say that it was "needed" or that Azzarello "had" to create an in-story need for redemption or at least reform; there aren't really many true necessities in fiction writing, you know? But I do see some merit in creating such a need; this way, Wonder Woman gets to be the great reformer of her people, which strikes me as more heroic role than simply the product or prize student of an already-highly-exemplary society. And, whether it was a good idea to create a need for redemption or reform, now that he's done it, I've been anticipating some resolution; though I'm patient about it, I'd be more satisfied seeing this need eventually fulfilled than seeing it permanently dropped or ignored.

[Awonder]

Actually, I wouldn't say that it was "needed" or that Azzarello "had" to create an in-story need for redemption or at least reform; there aren't really many true necessities in fiction writing, you know? But I do see some merit in creating such a need; this way, Wonder Woman gets to be the great reformer of her people, which strikes me as more heroic role than simply the product or prize student of an already-highly-exemplary society. And, whether it was a good idea to create a need for redemption or reform, now that he's done it, I've been anticipating some resolution; though I'm patient about it, I'd be more satisfied seeing this need eventually fulfilled than seeing it permanently dropped or ignored.

So, the story of Amazons needing redemption is not "needed," but more of a 'since it's here, let's make the most of it'?

What do you think about the OP's suggestion of differing tribes?

[Lex Luthor]

1. i think the most important is to keep the amazons/themyscira aligned with good-that isnt to say none of the amazons can be evil or bad- but i think for socio political purposes, that the story was born out of, keeping themyscira, as a whole, a beacon of feminism and progressiveness should be imperative.
2. however, that isnt to say you cant complicate the story of themyscira. I think Simone did a good job of this where she made the birth of Diana more chaotic. I think other things can be done to complicate the narrative without compromising the amazons or making them man hating rapists. Creating a more political/less loving relationship with the Gods and the Amazons could definitely do this(maybe they had to bargain for their land/maybe Hippolyta wanted to protect her people and tricked the gods some way). if you were to do that and show the gods as more morally grey or corrupt then you can definitely keep the good in themyscira
3. show us more of diana's life on themyscira. i dont like the whole "ignorant princess" trope for her. i mean these people have lived and so they have to had experience things. Even if their experiences might not be with other people they still experienced something. show us more of diana getting into trouble on the island or learning about how to be a leader through adventures on the island or something
4. instead of having amazons kill their sons its a perfect chance to make themyscira more open to trans amazons.

[AmiMizuno]

I like the love of different tribes for each amazon is different tribe should be different and have slightly different views. Each of them are unique in their own way. This is why I think it would be interesting if a tribe that no amazon knew abut it need to it being need a place not yet explored do to magic of the doom gate. This tribe are from amazons who had secluded themselves from the other amazons and so the number is small. THe amazons found out due to the tribe actually with confidence tells the amazons a new and better way to live.

[Silvanus]

So, the story of Amazons needing redemption is not "needed," but more of a 'since it's here, let's make the most of it'?

Close, but "let's make the most of it" sounds like it might imply that creating a need for redemption was a bad idea in the first place, and I don't think it was. It was one way of adding fresh drama, and while this particular way (like almost any individual plot choice) wasn't "necessary," it was interesting (to me). And yes, now that it has been undertaken, I would definitely find followup more satisfying than backtracking.

What do you think about the OP's suggestion of differing tribes?

The Finches have already alluded to different tribes, though it was in the dream sequence:

tribes.jpg

"Dessa tried to hold the tribes together." By just having her dream this, I think the Finches implied that there are tribes to dream about, and that these tribes might have differing viewpoints, to some extent. If I were the writer, I'd show that there were shades of difference in attitudes towards men among different tribes (and individuals) but I wouldn't limit the bad behavior to just one tribe (like the Bana); I'd make most if not all of them complicit, at least to some degree. I think some amount of moral ambiguity adds depth (for lack of a better word). I might, though, have the Bana be a hard-core misandrist tribe that follows Donna into exile after she loses to Diana.

[Dr. Hurt]

The only way to "fix" the Amazons is to give them something to do. So far they mostly stay on the island being paragons of wisdom and love. Diana visits them, they exchange speeches about deep stuff and then she goes on her way. Rarely do they come outside the island but it's usually something that makes them look bad. So like Johns did with the Lantern Corps, give them enemies to fight, and make them independent from WW. Make them ACTIVE superheroes, not statues. To do that:

1. Give them a mission. No more guarding some boring door with demons. Make them like the Green Lanterns, as in the police force on Earth for everything mythological or supernatural.

2. Let them step out of the island and fight some dudes. They remain invisible to us by drugging everyone with lotus gas or whatever to make people forget they saw them. Basically a magical version of this:



3. Give them enemies of their own, other cultures and armies for them to fight. Just like Johns created Lantern Corps of other colours, enrich the WW universe with pockets of antiquity that survived to this day like they did. Aztecs, Persians, Indians, Africans, etc.

[Agent Z]

The only way to "fix" the Amazons is to give them something to do. So far they mostly stay on the island being paragons of wisdom and love. Diana visits them, they exchange speeches about deep stuff and then she goes on her way. Rarely do they come outside the island but it's usually something that makes them look bad. So like Johns did with the Lantern Corps, give them enemies to fight, and make them independent from WW. Make them ACTIVE superheroes, not statues. To do that:

1. Give them a mission. No more guarding some boring door with demons. Make them like the Green Lanterns, as in the police force on Earth for everything mythological or supernatural.

2. Let them step out of the island and fight some dudes. They remain invisible to us by drugging everyone with lotus gas or whatever to make people forget they saw them. Basically a magical version of this:



3. Give them enemies of their own, other cultures and armies for them to fight. Just like Johns created Lantern Corps of other colours, enrich the WW universe with pockets of antiquity that survived to this day like they did. Aztecs, Persians, Indians, Africans, etc.

Fighting back monsters that even the Olympians are afraid of is not what I'd call 'boring'.

[Dr. Hurt]

4. Internal politics. You can draw inspiration from various sources. The greek city states that would fight amongs themselves but unite against foreign enemies, the various kingdoms ruled under one king like in Game of Thrones (which was somewhat based on the medieval civil war in England known as "war of the roses"), or my personal favourite, the Holy Roman Empire. A collection of german kingdoms that would elect an emperor (who in reality had very limited power over them) every time the old one died. Usually that was a Habsburg king from Austria (yellow blob below).




And just to pick your interest, it was that blue, scissor-like state up north that ended up uniting all the kingdoms, and not the massive and incredibly rich Austria. It was called Prussia (originally Brandenburg). They won the various internal wars and united the germans under their king, leaving Austria outside. Austria remains a seperate state to this day.

5) Make Hippolyta younger and give the Amazons other queens before her. How were they? What did they do for their people? Did they lead the Amazons in any historical wars? How does Hippolyta live up to them?


Active Amazons + internal politics + rich history = interesting

[Dr. Hurt]

Fighting back monsters that even the Olympians are afraid of is not what I'd call 'boring'.

It is when it's the same monsters at the same place. Again and again and again and again. It's why there arent any stories about it.