Well, can we fix the Amazons and if so how do you go about doing it?

[Agent Z]

I as among those who defended the Amazons for their practices during Azzarello's run, primarily because there was a certain amount of pragmatism to it. The Amazons had to have a way to replenish their population. And just having the gods take care of that would be kind of bland. Making it so they have to actively hunt down men and then kill them afterwards adds a dark twist. And I didn't think it was too dark because they didn't flat out kill the men they gave birth to. They just sent them away. That's a lot more merciful than the Spartans ever did. They threw unwanted babies off a cliff. So I gave them that.

But after the events of Wonder Woman #40, I can't defend them anymore. They've gone from being victims of male oppression to oppressors of the worst kind. These men they killed weren't the men that hurt them. They were their brothers and their sons. They never committed a single crime against them. If anything, the men are bigger victims because they were abandoned. Yet they still helped the Amazons in the battle against the First Born. So what's their reward? Slaughter. There's no defending that.

Right now, the only thing that would fix the Amazons is a retcon of sorts. Perhaps Donna Troy put some Amazons under mind control. Or a god like Circe put them under a spell of bloodlust so they didn't know what they were doing. Even if that turns out to be the case, it puts the Amazons in a dangerous state. They're no longer an idealized society of warrior women who represent the strengths of femininity. They're just another band of ruthless war criminals who slaughter innocent people because of dogma. And that makes them no better than any male army. I think the Amazons and Wonder Woman deserve better.

Given Donna is practically a robot, Derinoe or Strife using mind control is more likely. Not sure if that makes it any better though.

[Darius]

None of that has anything to do with the German population. Germany was divided and governed by outsiders because it lost WWII (plus, it's a punishment towards the German government, not the German population). In the West, it lasted a few years so that a democratic government could be established, and in the East, it last decades because Stallin took that opportunity to espand communism so none of it had anything to do with punishing any one. the Germans who fled to South America were those who had an active hand in the Shoah, and the foundation of Israel isn't a punishment toward the random German folks who didn't act to help the Jews. Populations who fail to rise up against oppressive rules are almost never punished because, sadly, that would mean punishming most populations living under an oppresive rule.

Again, this isn't the point I'm making. I'm not suggesting I prisoning the Amazons. I'm advocating that the need to take ownership for the actions of their sisters. All of the Amazons are aware of the rape-raids; and the genocide of the manazons, even assuming only a small % participated is a sadly easy end conclusion to reach given Derinoe's position throughout the Finch run. Germany had a population of more than 50/60M so it would have been completely impractical to punish the entire population. However, economically speaking it took decades of recovery from WWII for even W. Germany to thrive once again, and the iron curtain residence were certainly held back in their growth for 40+ years. Reintegration of the two countries wasn't exactly an overnight process either.

The OP asked the question "how can the Amazons be redeemed" ... IMO this is the way. Ownership, penance and then growth. These amazons cannot be redeemed IMO without accepting responsibility for the atrocities of the culture and learning how to thrive without such things happening again.

[LoneNecromancer]

I'm still amazed all these years later people are still saying it was rape as hyperbole. That's a bit inappropriate and probably offensive.

[Agent Z]

I'm still amazed all these years later people are still saying it was rape as hyperbole. That's a bit inappropriate and probably offensive.

And I'm still amazed people actually think every guy on that boat actually consented to having sex with the Amazons.

[LoneNecromancer]

And I'm still amazed people actually think every guy on that boat actually consented to having sex with the Amazons.

Who said it was every guy? It's not like one guy can't knock up multiple women.

[Agent Z]

Who said it was every guy?

The people saying there was no rape.

[LoneNecromancer]

The people saying there was no rape.

...no, you misunderstood, who says every guy had to have sex with them? Like some weren't standing in the corner going what the f**k is happening.

Seriously, why would they even bother to come on the boats naked and unarmed if they were just going to force people to have sex with them anyway? Might as well bring the weapons and armour too, chop their arms off to stop them struggling, bed them, and slit their throats after.

[Darius]

I'm still amazed all these years later people are still saying it was rape as hyperbole. That's a bit inappropriate and probably offensive.

What's inaccurate, inappropriate or offensive about it? The Amazons slip on board seduce and murder men after having sex with them. I see no consent from these victims. Rape is about power not sex, the Amazon's certainly exhibit power in these circumstances. They are forcibly taking what they want in a sexual manner ... Making the argument that "the men liked it" is ridiculous since they had no idea that they'd would be killed and later many of their offspring would be essentially sold into slavery. I'll give you that the term "rape-raid" is mostly for expedience since "sex-manipulation-fertility-murder-outing" is a bit cumbersome. But it's not like any part of what they are doing here is OK.

[Agent Z]

...no, you misunderstood, who says every guy had to have sex with them? Like some weren't standing in the corner going what the f**k is happening.

Seriously, why would they even bother to come on the boats naked and unarmed if they were just going to force people to have sex with them anyway? Might as well bring the weapons and armour too, chop their arms off to stop them struggling, f**k, and slit their throats after.

See Darius' response.

[Auguste Dupin]

Again, this isn't the point I'm making. I'm not suggesting I prisoning the Amazons. I'm advocating that the need to take ownership for the actions of their sisters. All of the Amazons are aware of the rape-raids; and the genocide of the manazons, even assuming only a small % participated is a sadly easy end conclusion to reach given Derinoe's position throughout the Finch run. Germany had a population of more than 50/60M so it would have been completely impractical to punish the entire population. However, economically speaking it took decades of recovery from WWII for even W. Germany to thrive once again, and the iron curtain residence were certainly held back in their growth for 40+ years. Reintegration of the two countries wasn't exactly an overnight process either.

The OP asked the question "how can the Amazons be redeemed" ... IMO this is the way. Ownership, penance and then growth. These amazons cannot be redeemed IMO without accepting responsibility for the atrocities of the culture and learning how to thrive without such things happening again.

Ho. Okay. I actually agree with you. I guess I just got the wrong impression because of the whole "punishing" stuff.

[Auguste Dupin]

...no, you misunderstood, who says every guy had to have sex with them? Like some weren't standing in the corner going what the f**k is happening.

Seriously, why would they even bother to come on the boats naked and unarmed if they were just going to force people to have sex with them anyway? Might as well bring the weapons and armour too, chop their arms off to stop them struggling, bed them, and slit their throats after.

I don't think you can have an erection while bleeding out from where your arms used to be.

[AmiMizuno]

Technically the amazons can overpower the men. However has monstrous as they are now I have to say there would have to be one gay person on these ships. I mean the amazons did give them alcohol to the sailors to get them drunk

[LoneNecromancer]

What's inaccurate, inappropriate or offensive about it? The Amazons slip on board seduce and murder men after having sex with them. I see no consent from these victims. Rape is about power not sex, the Amazon's certainly exhibit power in these circumstances. They are forcibly taking what they want in a sexual manner ... Making the argument that "the men liked it" is ridiculous since they had no idea that they'd would be killed and later many of their offspring would be essentially sold into slavery. I'll give you that the term "rape-raid" is mostly for expedience since "sex-manipulation-fertility-murder-outing" is a bit cumbersome. But it's not like any part of what they are doing here is OK.

Okay, so you can argue against things I didn't say really well. Let's see, uh, I don't recall arguing about what rape is, nor do I recall starting us on "the men liked it so it can't be rape", I'm asking why you're so insistent the ones who had sex with them didn't consent and that the Amazons wouldn't just not be bothered about a couple people objecting to the strange circumstances and dealing with what they got.

And no, they didn't know they'd be killed. But that has nothing to do with rape. I mean, uh, I guess it might fall under like "having sex by fraud"? That rule where it can be considered sexual assault if you pretend to be someone else to have sex with someone? Like, here it would be "having sex pretending I'm not going to kill you afterwards"? Eh, probably not.

And no, it's not okay to murder people, I'm glad we agree on that.

I don't think you can have an erection while bleeding out from where your arms used to be.

Okay, fine, tie them up, break their bones (but not that in that way), stab their arms through to the ground, cauterise 'em, whatever.

[Darius]

Ho. Okay. I actually agree with you. I guess I just got the wrong impression because of the whole "punishing" stuff.

I wasn't as clear as I could have been

[Darius]

Okay, so you can argue against things I didn't say really well. Let's see, uh, I don't recall arguing about what rape is, nor do I recall starting us on "the men liked it so it can't be rape", I'm asking why you're so insistent the ones who had sex with them didn't consent and that the Amazons wouldn't just not be bothered about a couple people objecting to the strange circumstances and dealing with what they got.

And no, they didn't know they'd be killed. But that has nothing to do with rape. I mean, uh, I guess it might fall under like "having sex by fraud"? That rule where it can be considered sexual assault if you pretend to be someone else to have sex with someone? Like, here it would be "having sex pretending I'm not going to kill you afterwards"? Eh, probably not.

And no, it's not okay to murder people, I'm glad we agree on that.



Okay, fine, tie them up, break their bones (but not that in that way), stab their arms through to the ground, cauterise 'em, whatever.

Seriously? These women murdered men post-sex ... What you are saying is no different than date rape. Just because it was males being taken advantage of doesn't lessen the crime.