Lobster Johnson: A Chain Forged in Life

[LobsterJohnson]

Chris Samnee is a favorite of mine so I'd love to see more from him, or possibly Francesco Francavilla

I like both of their art styles. They would be good choices for future stories. Have you read Francavilla's Black Beetle? It is similar to Lobster Johnson.

I would like to see how Stan Sakai draws LoJo, even if it is unlikely that he would do a full story.

[thwhtGuardian]

I like both of their art styles. They would be good choices for future stories. Have you read Francavilla's Black Beetle? It is similar to Lobster Johnson.

I would like to see how Stan Sakai draws LoJo, even if it is unlikely that he would do a full story.

The Black Beetle is exactly why he needs to do LoJo, his art is perfect for pulp heroes.

[middenway]

Chris Samnee has someone I've wanted to see handle Lobster Johnson for a while now. I'd also like to see Jonathan Case have a go at the series (plus he works incredibly well with John Arcudi's writing).

[Kees_L]

I would like to see how Stan Sakai draws LoJo, even if it is unlikely that he would do a full story.

Especially a full story would be spectacularly awesome!

The Black Beetle is exactly why he needs to do LoJo, his art is perfect for pulp heroes.

For all I know mr Francesco Francavilla would also be an enormous fan, if only since he used to frequent this exact forum as well as its previous incarnations for quite a long time.

[LobsterJohnson]

I'd also like to see Ben Stenbeck draw a Lobster story.

[middenway]

I'd also like to see Ben Stenbeck draw a Lobster story.

Ben Stenbeck doing anything is always good.

[LobsterJohnson]

I'm likely blinded by my own theory in this case. I have this crazy idea that the Lobster is a spirit that possesses the body of his last kill.

I was re-reading this book last night, and I think that there is a chance that the Lobster did possess "Bags" (I do think your theory about the Lobster possessing his last kill is correct, but I'm trying to figure out whether that occurred in this case or not). When he leans against the window, his glasses/goggles are glowing. But if it was just the Lobster propping Bags' body against the window and not the Lobster himself possessing him, how could his glasses have been glowing? The fire had been extinguished by that point, and there was no other light source as far as I can tell. Obviously it could have just been an artistic choice to fool the reader, but I think you might be right.
I guess all this proves is that I spend way too much time thinking about this stuff.

[thwhtGuardian]

I read a couple of Batman comics today that made me think of this issue...and not necessarily in a great way. I don't have it in front of me but does the issue have something along the lines of, "After Night of the Stalker" or "After Detective Comics #439" or even "After Darwin Cooke"? Because if it didn't it really should because the plot is nearly identical to that story and even some of the panel break downs look similar to Darwin Cooke's re-imagining "Deja Vue" from his issue of Solo where he correctly credits the original.

[Joker]

Don't have any of that handy, any examples?

[thwhtGuardian]

Don't have any of that handy, any examples?

I reread the issue and there is no refrence to Cooke, Englehart or Batman #439



That's the only comparison I can find image wise on line, but the plots are dead on; Night Stalker and Deja Vu are told from the perspective of a small gang of crooks on the run from Batman after a heist. Batman dogs them all the way out of Gotham before catching up to them on a deserted road out side of town where he causes the car to break down and picks off one of the gang but the rest manage to get away to a small cabin in the woods but they're far from safe as Batman picks them off slowly one by one through a series of tricks, even using the body of one of the members as a diversion until it's just one guy with a shot gun and a few last rounds left...and all the while Batman doesn't utter a single word.
The plot's the exact same, the narrative structure is the exact same and many of the unique visual elements like Batman standing, silent and still as the car gets away and the prone gang member as a distraction are nearly spot on. It's just too much to ignore.

I'm not saying it's a rip off, I love variations on a similar story and Batman and the Lobster both owe a lot of their respective elements to the pulps so it's only fair that one might reuse elements from the other but when you do I think credit needs to be given when it's due and that seems to be true here.

[zerodemon]

Cooke was not the first to use this storyline. The Lobster is a pulp vigilante, and in Cooke's work on Batman he put him in the same position. Look at The Spirit, the Spider, the Shadow or any number of other pulp characters who have used very similar storylines to this. It's a trope of Pulp characters, and The Lobster will use all of them. It's actually part of the genius of The Lobster as a character that every story is derivative of other pulp characters (except for the pirate stuff and the fact that he might be able to take over bodies when his becomes too damaged, but we've never really seen that. Pure conjecture.)

[Kees_L]

I reread the issue and there is no refrence to Cooke, Englehart or Batman #439

That's the only comparison I can find image wise on line, but the plots are dead on; Night Stalker and Deja Vu are told from the perspective of a small gang of crooks on the run from Batman after a heist. Batman dogs them all the way out of Gotham before catching up to them on a deserted road out side of town where he causes the car to break down and picks off one of the gang but the rest manage to get away to a small cabin in the woods but they're far from safe as Batman picks them off slowly one by one through a series of tricks, even using the body of one of the members as a diversion until it's just one guy with a shot gun and a few last rounds left...and all the while Batman doesn't utter a single word.
The plot's the exact same, the narrative structure is the exact same and many of the unique visual elements like Batman standing, silent and still as the car gets away and the prone gang member as a distraction are nearly spot on. It's just too much to ignore.

I'm not saying it's a rip off, I love variations on a similar story and Batman and the Lobster both owe a lot of their respective elements to the pulps so it's only fair that one might reuse elements from the other but when you do I think credit needs to be given when it's due and that seems to be true here.

When I think about what I can like out of any story featuring a person mad or desperate enough to be dressing themselves up for chasing down utter crooks in the night for the sake of how 'justice needs mending', then the story you describe basically fits it. To me it is what any Bob Kane or pulp story featuring an avenger is gonna be about. Same as what Lynn Varley and Frank Miller's Batman Year One or Bolland/Moore's: the Killing Joke or even Gotham by Gaslight is gonna be about. It's what the movie Falling Down with Michael Douglas is about, although in that movie instead of dressing up the avenger is looking more and more butch and extremist with every new stain or smudge on his office nine-to-five suit.

I would disagree that either a chase down to face-offs or such avenger mentality getting showcased as being not necessarily the most righteous or most commendable for anyone to be undertaking could be seen as trademarked or copyrighted by one author or creator only. It would to me be like as if Chuck Norris would claim that he and he alone would be entitled to being called "the good guy". What you describe I wouldn't call a 'plot' but a story mechanic far more rather, one that fits graphicality like a comic or movie or 'bit of pulp' rather nicely.

[thwhtGuardian]

Cooke was not the first to use this storyline. The Lobster is a pulp vigilante, and in Cooke's work on Batman he put him in the same position. Look at The Spirit, the Spider, the Shadow or any number of other pulp characters who have used very similar storylines to this. It's a trope of Pulp characters, and The Lobster will use all of them. It's actually part of the genius of The Lobster as a character that every story is derivative of other pulp characters (except for the pirate stuff and the fact that he might be able to take over bodies when his becomes too damaged, but we've never really seen that. Pure conjecture.)

I mentioned that Cooke's story was in fact itself an adaptation of Steve Englehart's "Night Stalker" from Detective Comics #439(which Cooke rightly credits) who in turn credits the story to an idea that came up from a story session between Neil Adams and the brothers Sal and Vin Amendola, but I haven't heard of an earlier preexisting story, especially not one that hits the exact same plot points as this Batman tale (right down to the last goon in the cabin holding out against the hero with a shotgun and his last few remaining rounds )and uses a gang of nervous, every day criminals as the POV characters while the hero remains utterly silent. It's that slavish rehash of very specific details in both the plot and the unique narrative structure that takes it beyond just being derivative of pulp stories in general and into being derivative of a very particular story which, like I said would, be fine creatively as it does offer up it's own variation on the plot but then only if it's properly sourced...which it isn't.

I picked up Cooke's Solo last week after attempting to track it down for a while and loving Deja Vu in which he credited the earlier story led me to spend this week tracking down that issue and loving it and that level of dialog is what I love about comics as it readily allows you to explore previous ventures and it would have been great if the Lobster had taken me on that same journey, and it seems to me that it should have rightly done so as the similarities are just too many to be a coincidence based on both stories drawing inspiration from the pulps. If it was just the interruption of the heist, the silent pursuit and the stand off at the cabin you could maybe pass it off as just that, but when it's the heist, the silent pursuit (down to stopping the car on the side of a deserted road and then watching as the rest get away) the cabin, the body as a distraction while the hero attacks through the window and the final guy with a shot gun and his last bit of ammo you're talking about far too much to be just a simple coincidence.

[Joker]

Mignloa's pretty good about acknowledging it when he's using a source material as inspiration or a starting point. Those notes rarely come in the single issues, though. Rather in the trades as a forward.

Cooke knows where he took if from and credited it. Batman: The Animated Series even did a slight riff on the story, if I remember correctly.

Perhaps it'll get a credit in the trade, or perhaps they remembered the basic idea, but not where it came from... who can say. I don't think there was any harm of theft intended, as, again, Mignola credits his inspirations regularly.

And! Somehow I think I missed this issue, or just have no memory of reading it. So thanks for bringing that to my attention.

[thwhtGuardian]

Mignloa's pretty good about acknowledging it when he's using a source material as inspiration or a starting point. Those notes rarely come in the single issues, though. Rather in the trades as a forward.

Cooke knows where he took if from and credited it. Batman: The Animated Series even did a slight riff on the story, if I remember correctly.

Perhaps it'll get a credit in the trade, or perhaps they remembered the basic idea, but not where it came from... who can say. I don't think there was any harm of theft intended, as, again, Mignola credits his inspirations regularly.

And! Somehow I think I missed this issue, or just have no memory of reading it. So thanks for bringing that to my attention.

Yeah, I don't think it was malicious at all, and I've discovered so many great stories from Mignola's notes so I just wish it had been included here as it would have meant that I would have discovered these stories all that much earlier. Plus, how cool would it have been if under the title there was a little script that said "Inspired by The Batman"? That single little tidbit would have added a great bit of metatextuality to a story that was otherwise fairly straight forward and low stakes as Lobster stories go.