Top 5 Greatest hand to hand fighters between Marvel and DC

[Cody]

Between these two Multiverses, which individual is the most skilled fighter?

For the sake of this; everyone's physical abilities are equalized and do not take any of their gadgets and/or powers(like ki blasts for example) into consideration. This is just in terms of pure hand to hand skill.

Omnipotent beings are the only ones barred from this as they are all knowing and can more or less be the best fighter just be wanting it to be. Aside from that everyone is included in this. Not just martial artists but boxers, street fighters, etc. If they are from DC and Marvel and know how to fight then they are the type of fighter I am referring to.

So even though PC Val and Pre-flashpoint Val can hit just as fast and as hard as the Supermen from their respective universes/state of time, in this they are no more faster or stronger than say; Batman. Again this is just in terms of pure fighting skill.

So, between these two Multiverses, in order from most skilled to least, who are the top 5 greatest hand to hand fighters? Again this is overall top 5. Not top 5 from Marvel and top 5 from DC. But top 5 as a whole. The Amalgam universe is also involved in this as it is a combination of Marvel and DC.

[The Dork Knight]

Karate kid should still be at the top. Iron fist, cassandra cain and daredevil probably make the top 5

edit: Actually dont know what IF would be like with just normal human stats so hes probably out

[Pendaran]

The thing about Val is that almost everything he does, including how hard and fast he hits, are expressions of his skill. Hell, he specifically learned a "throw things faster than bullets" technique as a minor, one off bemusing example. Putting out and redirecting earthquakes with his foot? Martial arts. The crappiest Val smashing 70,000 or whatever tons of ice off a thing? Martial arts. Mon-El outer space judo toss? Martial arts.

The middle incarnation of Val did have a weakness sensing power, so I suppose there's that.

So Val occupies the various top spots here, and then Mantis ;p

[The Dork Knight]

I thought Mantis' pressure points and stuff were because of her getting enhancements from the cotati?

[Pendaran]

All martial arts bullcrap. She didn't become the Celestial Madonna and whatever with the body changeover thing until later in her career.

[Cody]

The thing about Val is that almost everything he does, including how hard and fast he hits, are expressions of his skill. Hell, he specifically learned a "throw things faster than bullets" technique as a minor, one off bemusing example. Putting out and redirecting earthquakes with his foot? Martial arts. The crappiest Val smashing 70,000 or whatever tons of ice off a thing? Martial arts. Mon-El outer space judo toss? Martial arts.

The middle incarnation of Val did have a weakness sensing power, so I suppose there's that.

So Val occupies the various top spots here, and then Mantis ;p

That was with the use of Super Karate however. Which more or less amps his striking power and reaction speed. Not just because he is "really good".

And for this rumble; it doesn't matter what style you use. Everyone is equal in physical ability for this.

[Beadle]

Yeah, as soon as I saw the thread title, I thought:

1. Val
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2. Mantis
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Some other people.

[Pendaran]

That was with the use of Super Karate however. Which more or less amps his striking power and reaction speed. Not just because he is "really good".

And for this rumble; it doesn't matter what style you use. Everyone is equal in physical ability for this.

Super Karate is a skill is my point here, it doesn't give him ki or any such thing. You're asking who would be best in hand to hand skill, but the whole thing of super karate is that it indeed, it's just because mastering it makes you that good. It's not an amp, per se. Even crappy Val, when he's doing the thousands of tons ice strike thing, he's not amping himself, that's all skill, somehow.

And for this rumble; it doesn't matter what style you use. Everyone is equal in physical ability for this.

Then you're basically hobbling the effects of the styles Val has mastered. My minor example for pre crisis Val is that "mastered a style that teaches you how to throw things faster than bullets", again, it purportedly does this as a skill thing, is that off as well?

[Cody]

Super Karate is a skill is my point here, it doesn't give him ki or any such thing. You're asking who would be best in hand to hand skill, but the whole thing of super karate is that it indeed, it's just because mastering it makes you that good. It's not an amp, per se. Even crappy Val, when he's doing the thousands of tons ice strike thing, he's not amping himself, that's all skill, somehow.



Then you're basically hobbling the effects of the styles Val has mastered. My minor example for pre crisis Val is that "mastered a style that teaches you how to throw things faster than bullets", again, it purportedly does this as a skill thing, is that off as well?

Yes. Either that or everyone gets a boost in physical ability in order to match his.

Just trying to find out who has the greatest level of skill. Otherwise Val would obviously stomp everyone.

We could exclude Val if you guys want.

[Pendaran]

Yes. Either that or everyone gets a boost in physical ability in order to match his.

Then they're being artificially boosted to compensate for that Val on pure skill mastery is able to operate on a fantastical level of speed and striking power best suited to ancient mythology where centaurs could teach you techniques for how to grapple fire unharmed. His physical strength is not being amped.

Just trying to find out who has the greatest level of skill. Otherwise Val would obviously stomp everyone.

So, when Val can cancel out and redirect earthquake causing seismic waves with his foot, also out?

You may as well remove Val since you're trying to shave off things from his capacity that don't really work for how that capacity works.

[Cody]

Then they're being artificially boosted to compensate for that Val on pure skill mastery is able to operate on a fantastical level of speed and striking power best suited to ancient mythology where centaurs could teach you techniques for how to grapple fire unharmed. His physical strength is not being amped.

His actual strength(lifting, etc) isn't that great unless he is specifically using Super Karate. Without using it he could not perform the physical feats that he has shown.

So, when Val can cancel out and redirect earthquake causing seismic waves with his foot, also out?

You may as well remove Val since you're trying to shave off things from his capacity that don't really work for how that capacity works.

May as well then.

[Sharpandpointies]

Going to throw my hat in for agreeing with the group regarding physical enhancements. By taking those enhancements away from the people, you're actually 'removing' some of the skill they've built up for hand to hand.

Cass' speed and striking power? Trained.
Shang Chi's stat boosting chi? Part of his martial arts (and thus hand to hand) training.
Iron Fist's stuff does come in part from stealing the chi of a dragon...but even before that, purely from training he was strong enough to physically wrestle that dragon.
Karate Kid's stuff? All hand to hand training.
Daredevil's speed? Trained.

Etc. (Include other people who do stuff that blatantly runs better than Batman, ie Elektra)

By removing these things, you're basically nulling a large section of their training.

If we include those things, it probably runs something like this:

1. Val.
2. Mantis.
3. Stick.
4/5. Shang Chi/Cassandra Cain, roughly a tie.

I don't know where to put Iron Fist 'Without Stolen Dragon-Chi'. With it, he's above Shang and Cass.

[Beadle]

I'm sorry, and no offense intended, but this stance seems to be a bit ridiculous. It's basically coming across to me as:

"Everyone is physically equal. People can only use their skill. Who's best? Except Val does NOT get to use all his skill. Because then he would be best. And I don't want him to be best. So some of his skils don't count."

[Sharpandpointies]

Plenty of other 'super' martial artists in fiction - historical and not - would fall under the 'only trained, nothing more' hat as well.

Remo Williams, for example, casually tears apart anyone and everyone (simultaneously, throw in Iron Fist for fun as well) on the list below #2 (and would probably do pretty well against Mantis), and his abilities spring solely from training in a single martial art.

[Cody]

I'm sorry, and no offense intended, but this stance seems to be a bit ridiculous. It's basically coming across to me as:

"Everyone is physically equal. People can only use their skill. Who's best? Except Val does NOT get to use all his skill. Because then he would be best. And I don't want him to be best. So some of his skils don't count."

You don't really understand where I am coming from then. Idc if Val is the best or not. I just wanted to know who had the most skill. Otherwise PC Val could literally take on every single hand to hand expert from both the Marvel Multiverse and DC Multiverse at the same time and utterly stomp them into the ground.

Val knows a **** ton of different martial arts. It just so happens that Super Karate makes him hit as hard and as fast as a Kryptonian.

How is that fair? Having a guy who can hang with Kryptonians go up against guys who are nowhere near that level of physical ability?

Thus I equalized their physical stats. So we can talk pure skill.