View Poll Results: who would win in a fight?

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  • superman and wonder woman

    50 84.75%
  • green lantern and star sapphire

    9 15.25%
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  1. #31
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by liwanag View Post
    does anybody know what the current stand is on the power rings ability to duplicate kryptonite radiation? ive been thinking about it and i have a few questions on it.

    - this abiltiy would have have been really helpful for the corps against superboy prime during infinite crisis... or wait, i cant remember if kryptonite does not have any effect on superboy prime...

    - can firestorm, or element lad, or dr alchemy, create/transmute kryptonite?

    - i have seen stories where captain atom emits red sun radiation to weaken superman. does exposure to red sun immediately weaken kal-el? can captain atom emit kryptonite radiation too?

    just a couple of trivial questions i guess before i go back to the main topic...
    I know Firestorm has created kryptonite before, but I'm not sure about the others. I figure that, theoretically, they could. If they knew what kryptonite looks like on a molecular level of course. And that's not something you can just wiki.

    Red sun radiation has different effects depending on the writer. During the New Krypton debacle, it was used as an instant de-powering ray (which I always thought was stupid beyond comment). Other writers have had it slowly drain Clark's powers, still others have said that it doesnt drain his powers but the lack of yellow sunlight means that he doesnt replenish his cells when he does use his powers, essentially giving him a limited amount of energy to spend before hitting "empty".

    As far as I know, Captain Atom can't emit kryptonite radiation (never seen him even attempt it), but the New52 Dr. Manhattan version is powerful enough I see no reason why he couldn't.

    And the last I knew the Lanterns *could* create kryptonite radiation in theory but again, it requires a massive amount of focus and very specific knowledge that isn't easy to come by.

    And I dont think it would help much anyway. Clark's been exposed to ridiculous amounts of kryptonite and while it hurts like hell, all it really accomplishes is making him mad and push himself further so he can finish off the threat before the radiation kills him. Assuming Hal could generate some, it would help but it wouldn't seal the deal. Honestly, I'd almost think it would be in his best interests to not go that route, it's never worked for anyone else (except Batman).
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  2. #32
    Extraordinary Member liwanag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post


    You've got some solid points. Superman has spent enough time in space so that he's very well adjusted to those particular circumstances, Diana however, is not. The nice thing about being super strong flying bricks like they are is that gravity becomes a suggestion moreso than anything, so I dont think a zero-G environment would throw Diana out of the fight completely, and most of her combat style wouldn't be affected (she's one of the only martial combat masters actually trained for super-human physics where gravity and solid objects dont really matter), but it's certainly out of her comfort zone. The real question for me is whether post-Crisis Diana was able to survive in space with minimal to no equipment. I think she could, but Im not sure. If all she needs is a little oxygen mask, that's one thing, but if she has to be in a full out pressure suit, that becomes a huge factor against her. All Hal or Carol would have to do is either puncture the suit or generate a construct inside the suit with her, and she's out of the fight. Then they can focus on Clark.

    As for Carol's ability to teleport, I forgot about that. But doesnt she just summon up portals? It'd be a lot harder to trick either Superman or Wonder Woman into flying into a giant glowing pink portal than it would be to just teleport them Star Trek style. Possible, but difficult.

    We also seem to be forgetting Diana's lasso, which had a certain degree of mind control ability. I dont think for a second Diana could bend either Hal or Carol to her whim with the lasso, but it would provide enough of a distraction for Clark to put down whoever was tied up. With the Lantern's focus on pushing off Diana's mental commands, there's little chance they'd be able to raise a strong enough shield to stop Clark, especially if it was one of those "only-got-one-shot-at-this" type things where Clark really gives it his all.

    For my money, Carol's the weak link in this fight. If we're going by post-Crisis, she had virtually no experience as a voluntary Sapphire and even less experience fighting people like Clark and Diana who just straight up out-muscle her. Its not like we're talking about some random couple in capes here, Clark and Diana are the pinnacle of super-humanity, it doesnt get any better or bigger than them. But using post-Crisis standards, it'd be a real close battle either way. I still maintain that current Superman could likely deal with them both on his own. But he's very nearly at a Silver Age level of power, and very, very few people come anywhere close to that.
    i dont think star sapphires summon portals that can swallow opponents or allies. that would be the indigo tribes ability i think. (can someone help me out here). the way i understand it is, sapphires can, irregardless of distance (?), can tether themselves to a person they love and bring that love one to their side or vice versa.

    carol seems to be the weak link in this fight, but i think she has had experience battling apocalyptic type opponents during blackest night.

    in my opinion, gl and ss team has a big advantage over clark and diana if the fight moves to zero gravity space, and that is communication, which results in better teamwork. with their power rings, they can clearly coordinate attacks, defense and objectives much more than supes and ww, which i think will just rely on visual cues. and then theres vision, superman and the lanterns have long range vision or scanners, but im not sure diana has similar senses.

    again, this fight would be different if it was done inside earths atmosphere. i see superman just smacking everybody thru mountain ranges, which i hope wont come to. (just think of the poor slumbering village or a herd of mountain goats who would get caught in the fist fight). hal and carol though would be accustomed to intense pressure, and high g-forces, being pilots who have tested the limits of mans body and machine.

    i was probably too ambitious in pitting lantern and sapphire against superrman and wonderwoman. they are indeed the pinnacle of of super humanity. but hey, cant fault a man for trying. besides, if there ever was a couple who could come close to sm and ww, that would be gl and ss imo. (or maybe black adam and isis - hey that might not be a bad idea for a different versus thread).

    i hope to hear more from you guys, i think i still have a few ammunition left in my arsenal.
    Last edited by liwanag; 04-13-2015 at 11:30 AM.

  3. #33
    Extraordinary Member Güicho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    If they knew what kryptonite looks like on a molecular level of course. And that's not something you can just wiki.
    It'd be easy enough to have it stored in the ring's database, Krypton had a GL (Tomar-Re) I believe, he would have monitored the explosion and any radiation or debris emanating from it.
    Jordan would have access to that.

    As far as imagining and willing a rock big enough. Jordan probably could conjure one the size of a planet and drop it on him, or surround him in a huge crushing force field of it. Yeah he could probably get out, but If nothing else those would work as a distraction while he drives a kryptonite construct shaft through his weakened heart.
    Last edited by Güicho; 04-16-2015 at 07:11 AM.

  4. #34
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    I didnt think the Sapphires could teleport either. Someone mentioned that a page or three back though, and I figured I must have forgot about the ability. I haven't read any Lantern titles since Johns left other than Soule's Red Lanterns so my memory could easily be off.

    The communication aspect is a good call, I hadnt actually considered that. On the other hand, by post-Crisis standards Clark and Diana had been working together on a regular basis for a decade or more, so I imagine a lot of it is intuitive. Still, that's an advantage for the Lanterns.

    I think if you want a really good battle for Clark and Diana you have to go outside their box. You're not going to find anyone who can out muscle them or out-fight them (well, Diana), and they can withstand more punishment and go longer than almost anyone. So you gotta put together a team to go after their weak points. For Clark, maybe a telepath (J'onn will never be as strong, fast, or tough as Clark but his telepathy alone makes up the difference) and for Diana, some sort of transmuter who could destabilize her form and revert her to clay, like Firestorm or someone. Then the problem becomes hitting the super-fast, highly experienced and skilled targets before they hit you, disrupt your focus, and knock you the hell out.

    And I've enjoyed these threads. The Rumbles forum is fun sometimes, but this feels a lot less lawyered and casual. And with Rumbles, whoever is the fastest almost always wins anyway.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  5. #35
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Güicho View Post
    It'd be easy enough to have it stored in the ring's database, Krypton had a GL (Tomar-Re) I believe, he would have monitored the explosion and any radiation or debris emanating from it.
    Jordan would have access to that.

    As far as imagining and willing a rock big enough. Jordan probably could conjure one the size of a planet and drop it on him, or surround him in a huge crushing force field of it. Yeah he could probably get out, but If nothing else those would work as a distraction while he drives a kryptonite construct shaft through his heart.
    Yeah, it's entirely likely. But the thing is, it's been done before, and it doesnt work. Unless you're Batman, kryptonite is a cruel trick the universe plays on you to make you think you have a shot of taking Superman down. And while Hal is trying to contain Clark, and that's far from easy, that means Carol is going to have to try to slow down Diana so she doesn't just utterly wreck the distracted Hal (I imagine holding Clark in check would require every ounce of will and attention Hal can muster). I dont think Carol has it in her to slow Diana down that much when Clark's life is on the line, especially in a post-Crisis situation where Carol wouldnt have the last four years' worth of experience as a Lantern. I mean, Carol's no slouch, and she was involved in the Blackest Night and, of course, her tenure as a villain before that, but its friggin Wonder Woman, and Carol's just not ready for that.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  6. #36
    Extraordinary Member liwanag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Güicho View Post
    It'd be easy enough to have it stored in the ring's database, Krypton had a GL (Tomar-Re) I believe, he would have monitored the explosion and any radiation or debris emanating from it.
    Jordan would have access to that.

    As far as imagining and willing a rock big enough. Jordan probably could conjure one the size of a planet and drop it on him, or surround him in a huge crushing force field of it. Yeah he could probably get out, but If nothing else those would work as a distraction while he drives a kryptonite construct shaft through his weakened heart.
    lol.

    i agree that hal can go toe to toe with superman, but i'd rather the fight focus on tactics and teamwork and that goal be the acquisition of an artifact. people stabbing other people or yanking their arms off seem so messy..and uhmmm...fatal..

    remember this part of hal's parallax possessed past?








    which i just realized that it doesnt really count in this thread since hal had parallax's power.
    Last edited by liwanag; 04-14-2015 at 05:39 AM.

  7. #37
    Extraordinary Member liwanag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Güicho View Post
    It'd be easy enough to have it stored in the ring's database, Krypton had a GL (Tomar-Re) I believe, he would have monitored the explosion and any radiation or debris emanating from it.
    Jordan would have access to that.

    As far as imagining and willing a rock big enough. Jordan probably could conjure one the size of a planet and drop it on him, or surround him in a huge crushing force field of it. Yeah he could probably get out, but If nothing else those would work as a distraction while he drives a kryptonite construct shaft through his weakened heart.
    yeah, ive read something about that but i cant remember. i probably just borrowed a friends comic then. anyway, what explanation was given why the corps didnt intervene in planet kryptons explosion?

  8. #38
    Extraordinary Member Güicho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by liwanag View Post
    yeah, ive read something about that but i cant remember. i probably just borrowed a friends comic then. anyway, what explanation was given why the corps didnt intervene in planet kryptons explosion?
    It's been a while - I remember it shows how they did in fact intervene, the Guardians actually had a vested interest in Kal-El surviving as he would make an ideal GL.
    Although the explosion of the planet was inevitable, Tomar-Re was assigned to be it's protector, he came up with a way to delay the explosion, long enough for them to build arks as Jor-El predicts the destruction, ...etc...
    I don't think Tomar-Re could intervene politically though to make anyone believe, and speed the escape, so they were spiraling to their own doom, all he could do was delay it, so as per Jor-El's plan as many could escape as possible, it wasn't enough though, and inevitably as we know there is only one ship built to carry the one.

    Which is actually knocked wildly off course, and it's Tomar-Re who guides it safely back on course to Earth.



    Quote Originally Posted by liwanag View Post
    lol.

    i agree that hal can go toe to toe with superman, but i'd rather the fight focus on tactics and teamwork and that goal be the acquisition of an artifact. people stabbing other people or yanking their arms off seem so messy..and uhmmm...fatal..

    remember this part of hal's parallax possessed past?

    which i just realized that it doesnt really count in this thread since hal had parallax's power.

    "Parallax powers" as you call it, never made allot of sense to me to begin with, they all had access to and were tapping the same power source, it was their will that defined what could or couldn't be done, never the amount of energy.
    That's why a tiny ring worked, it's just a conduit to the same energy.
    Having several rings, the size of the battery or having allot more of it, other than potentially psychologically, was never the deciding factor.
    It ultimately came down to what the individual believed they could do with it, the energy channels the wielder's will, not the other way around.

    So for better or worse(in this case worse) whatever feet he pulled off, was because at the time he believed he could do them, and thus willed them.
    So the supposed "power up" was him, not the energy(which was always the same)

    As to what he did with that power up, well that was the writers, deciding he would now use it for crazy!
    We'd already seen Jordan lick his wounds, power up to defeat Mongul and focus not on the past and dead but on the the future and the living as a source of strength and survival.
    He even said so, that was Hal.






    That kind of strength of character and will wasn't shocking enough for 90s gore and death craving speculators to buy multiple copies of, so we got a re-write of now insane mass murderer, which $old big LOL!
    Last edited by Güicho; 04-14-2015 at 08:53 AM.

  9. #39
    Extraordinary Member liwanag's Avatar
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    i wish some would come up with an explanation for that.. (maybe someone already did, just havent read it yet).. i was under the impression that the number of rings didnt matter, what mattered was the will behind the ring.. but maybe having more than one ring looked cooler and more menacing(?)...



    maybe the power rings have guardian imposed limits on their power output (?)... and parallax can bypass those limits(?), much the same way a blue power ring doubles the power of the green power ring.

    and once in a while a green lantern of superior will gets to "break" the rings limitation(?), an impressive feat of hal jordan when he confronted krona.



    now in a fight with superman and wonder woman, i dont think hal needs to "break" the ring. he and sapphire just needs to "outplay" clark and diana with better teamwork. which i admit is an extremely hard thing to do. and again i think the chances of that happening increases a lot when the fight is done in space.

  10. #40
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    It's essentially a "meaningless" question unless you specify which versions of which character you're using in what specific circumstances, and operate under well established "rumble board" rules. We all know "GL" with Parallax power ought to beat most versions of Superman. But...GL doesn't operate at that level most of time.

    Having said that I have an overwhelming irrational belief that Superman beats all opponents in any circumstances... so I have voted accordingly. (Even though I'd prefer Lois around to just look good and write the report for the Planet, rather than Wonder Woman get in the way of the action.)

  11. #41
    Extraordinary Member liwanag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    It's essentially a "meaningless" question unless you specify which versions of which character you're using in what specific circumstances, and operate under well established "rumble board" rules. We all know "GL" with Parallax power ought to beat most versions of Superman. But...GL doesn't operate at that level most of time.

    Having said that I have an overwhelming irrational belief that Superman beats all opponents in any circumstances... so I have voted accordingly. (Even though I'd prefer Lois around to just look good and write the report for the Planet, rather than Wonder Woman get in the way of the action.)
    i wasnt able to specify in first post but i realized my mistake and got to post the specifics in post # 6.

    ok, wow, i just realized comicvine does this soooo much better. ok, uhmm, here goes..


    - all characters are pre-nu 52 versions. so kal and diana are not the power couple they are now, clark is still with lois and diana is not the god of war. there are no yellow weaknesses for the power ring (would this even matter?). diana is in armor, carries a shield and has a gladius in her scabbard in addition to her lasso and tiara. im not sure if we should the predator inside star sapphire..

    - all combatants are to act in character, so morals are on and i guess there will be no intention to kill or maim, but most likely to knock out or incapacitate.

    - and since they are to act in character, i cant imagine theyll fight in a populated city. lets say deep space. or wait, can wonder woman effectively fight in deep space? maybe we should move the fight somewhere in the upper earth atmosphere to low earth orbit that way we can still minimize collateral damage.

    - so why would they fight instead of just talk it out and figure out a sensible solution? uhmm... how about their memories have been wiped and they have no previous knowledge of each team, the power ring can still retain its a.i. and information on kryptonian physiology. each teams goal would be to acquire (or at least prevent the other team) a very powerful artifact in geosynchronous orbit around the earth. infinity gauntlet, cosmic cube, whatever take your pick.


    whew.. ok, hope that covers it. this is all just for fun, and if you feel you would like to post scans that will be cool.
    i too feel that superman can handle himself pretty well most of the time... he does tend to falter when faced against batman though....

  12. #42
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    If I remember correctly, Hal's use of multiple rings was addressed during the early Kyle days. Odds are someone wrote a letter, it was printed, and the answer given, but I cant for the life of me be sure.

    Anyway, it's all about what the bearer believes is possible. The Lanterns were all told that the number of rings wasnt an issue, that one would work just as well as ten. And so the Lanterns believed it. Hal however, at that point had snapped, no longer believed anything the Guardians had told him, and since he believed he could channel more power with more rings, he did.

    And by the time he destroyed the Central Battery, he had bypassed the conduits of the rings, and was directly tapped into the energy, which negates any limitations (real or imagined) the rings themselves had.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  13. #43
    Extraordinary Member liwanag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    If I remember correctly, Hal's use of multiple rings was addressed during the early Kyle days. Odds are someone wrote a letter, it was printed, and the answer given, but I cant for the life of me be sure.

    Anyway, it's all about what the bearer believes is possible. The Lanterns were all told that the number of rings wasnt an issue, that one would work just as well as ten. And so the Lanterns believed it. Hal however, at that point had snapped, no longer believed anything the Guardians had told him, and since he believed he could channel more power with more rings, he did.

    And by the time he destroyed the Central Battery, he had bypassed the conduits of the rings, and was directly tapped into the energy, which negates any limitations (real or imagined) the rings themselves had.
    now thats a sensible explanation.

    i wonder if thats the same explanation for the time rookie hal entered the centarl power battery and defeated legion. or is emerald dawn not in canon anymore?

  14. #44
    Extraordinary Member Güicho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by liwanag View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Anyway, it's all about what the bearer believes is possible ......he believed he could channel more power with more rings, he did.
    now thats a sensible explanation.
    So the strength of what they can do has nothing to do with the size of the battery, amount of rings or amount of green energy, but the belief and willpower of the one fueling it.
    Gee, who would have guessed?
    /sarcasm]

    Quote Originally Posted by Güicho View Post
    Having several rings, the size of the battery or having allot more of it, other than potentially psychologically, was never the deciding factor.
    It ultimately came down to what the individual believed they could do with it, the energy channels the wielder's will, not the other way around.

    .....at the time he believed he could do them, and thus willed them.
    So the supposed "power up" was him, not the energy
    (which was always the same)
    Yeah the amount of energy never mattered. It was the willpower of the wielder and what they believed they could do.

    -
    So Superman by brute strength isn't getting through Jordan's crushing planet sized kryptonite force-field, unless Hal wills it.
    To do that he'd have to break Hal's will, and that's a mental game. Superman has nothing to use there. Jordan's not afraid to die, the possibility and proximity to it is what fuels him, when he's most switched on! So Superman would have to convince Jordan he should want to lose.

    And everyone knows to do that, is to write Jordan out of character.
    Last edited by Güicho; 04-16-2015 at 07:35 AM.

  15. #45
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Well, if you've got Superman trying to punch through walls Hal has generated, that's not a mental game. The constructs a Lantern generates are physical; they're as subject to the laws of basic physics as anything else. So the walls have to be strong enough to withstand the force being leveled against them, in this case, Superman's knuckles. What prevents those walls from crumbling is Hal's ability to provide a counter-force through the ring that will keep the walls intact. Its not a mental game, its a matter of Superman's strength versus Hal's force of will. Is Hal's will strong enough to push back against the level of physical force Superman is capable of generating?

    That's why we see Lanterns' shields and walls get broken all the time; if it was a matter of mind vs. mind, no one would ever be able to defeat a Lantern just by the merits of Lantern recruitment. I mean, are we assuming that Gordanian slavers or Khund mercenaries have more willpower than a Lantern? Of course not, but we've seen scum like that break a Lantern's constructs many times.

    A mental game is what Deathstroke tried to pull on Kyle during Identity Crisis. Slade tried to control the ring remotely, overpowering Kyle's willpower. If Superman tried that with Hal, that would be a mental game and he'd almost certainly lose.

    So what we have is the strongest man on earth putting his strength against the most stubborn man on earth's determination. Well, I'd argue that John has more willpower, but that's another discussion.
    Last edited by Ascended; 04-16-2015 at 07:44 AM.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

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