View Poll Results: who would win in a fight?

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  • superman and wonder woman

    50 84.75%
  • green lantern and star sapphire

    9 15.25%
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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    And I dont think it would help much anyway. Clark's been exposed to ridiculous amounts of kryptonite and while it hurts like hell, all it really accomplishes is making him mad and push himself further so he can finish off the threat before the radiation kills him. Assuming Hal could generate some, it would help but it wouldn't seal the deal. Honestly, I'd almost think it would be in his best interests to not go that route, it's never worked for anyone else (except Batman).
    anybody feel that batman has a bigger stash of kryptonite than lex luthor has? that was a joke, but i feel that the person most effective in exploiting clark's kryptonite weakness is bruce wayne. ultraman should have raided wayne manor during forever evil.

  2. #47
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Güicho View Post
    So the strength of what they can do has nothing to do with the size of the battery, amount of rings or amount of green energy, but the belief and willpower of the one fueling it.
    Gee, who would have guessed?
    /sarcasm]



    Yeah the amount of energy never mattered. It was the willpower of the wielder and what they believed they could do.

    -
    So Superman by brute strength isn't getting through Jordan's crushing planet sized kryptonite force-field, unless Hal wills it.
    To do that he'd have to break Hal's will, and that's a mental game. Superman has nothing to use there. Jordan's not afraid to die, the possibility and proximity to it is what fuels him, when he's most switched on! So Superman would have to convince Jordan he should want to lose.

    And everyone knows to do that, is to write Jordan out of character.
    Of course...Superman might have the overwhelming belief that his strength and speed would overcome Hal's shield...he might win the "mental game" as well as the physical.

    Side issue...but I've always been sceptical that its reasonable to believe that the main GL's have stronger will power than several other DC characters. Compare what Hal did before he had the ring with what Batman or Jonah Hex routinely do with nothing more than determination and cussedness (otherwise known as will power!).

  3. #48
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Going back to original scenario... retrieval of an artefact in space... actually suggests that speed would most likely be more important than force.

    Which team could:-
    a/ Determine its exact position first?
    b/ Who could get to that position first?

    In the old days... I'd have said Superman had a lot more speed feats in both categories (i.e. in both scanning large areas to identify position quickly, and in being able to move faster in space). Nowadays... I just don't know.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Well, if you've got Superman trying to punch through walls Hal has generated, that's not a mental game. The constructs a Lantern generates are physical; they're as subject to the laws of basic physics as anything else. So the walls have to be strong enough to withstand the force being leveled against them, in this case, Superman's knuckles. What prevents those walls from crumbling is Hal's ability to provide a counter-force through the ring that will keep the walls intact. Its not a mental game, its a matter of Superman's strength versus Hal's force of will. Is Hal's will strong enough to push back against the level of physical force Superman is capable of generating?

    That's why we see Lanterns' shields and walls get broken all the time; if it was a matter of mind vs. mind, no one would ever be able to defeat a Lantern just by the merits of Lantern recruitment. I mean, are we assuming that Gordanian slavers or Khund mercenaries have more willpower than a Lantern? Of course not, but we've seen scum like that break a Lantern's constructs many times.

    A mental game is what Deathstroke tried to pull on Kyle during Identity Crisis. Slade tried to control the ring remotely, overpowering Kyle's willpower. If Superman tried that with Hal, that would be a mental game and he'd almost certainly lose.

    So what we have is the strongest man on earth putting his strength against the most stubborn man on earth's determination. Well, I'd argue that John has more willpower, but that's another discussion.
    deathstroke taking on the jla over at identity crisis was seriously out of whack. he shouldnt have been able to predict the flashs movement nor take kyle in a battle of will.

    deep space is green lantern and sapphires territory. theyll take this fight 6 out of 10.

  5. #50
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by themiddle View Post
    anybody feel that batman has a bigger stash of kryptonite than lex luthor has? that was a joke, but i feel that the person most effective in exploiting clark's kryptonite weakness is bruce wayne. ultraman should have raided wayne manor during forever evil.
    Not even a joke. Batman has the incredible super-power of PLOT! Clark can throw an asteroid made of kryptonite into the sun, withstand direct blasts of a weaponized chunk of kryptonite the size of a fist (while also fighting Metallo at the same time) and otherwise just muscle through anything K-radiation poisoning can throw at him. Hurts like hell, but all it does is slow him down. Unless Batman is involved. Then the tiniest, most pointless sliver of a fraction of a speck of kryptonite is enough to leave Clark a blubbering, useless mess, peeing himself in his tights. It annoys me to no end. But, if they were to write a Bat-vs-Super fight properly, it would never be a fight at all, just Bruce waking up two hours later wondering what happened and why he hurts so much.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    Going back to original scenario... retrieval of an artefact in space... actually suggests that speed would most likely be more important than force.

    Which team could:-
    a/ Determine its exact position first?
    b/ Who could get to that position first?

    In the old days... I'd have said Superman had a lot more speed feats in both categories (i.e. in both scanning large areas to identify position quickly, and in being able to move faster in space). Nowadays... I just don't know.
    Well, we're supposed to be using post-Crisis here, and during that time Clark was a lot weaker than at any other time in his history (except early Golden Age obviously), so yeah, it's hard to tell who is faster and has the better senses/scanning equipment. Before Bryne's reboot, or the current version, Superman would have that hands down. But the time frame we're using? Hard to say. I give that particular advantage to Hal, I guess.
    Last edited by Ascended; 04-17-2015 at 08:51 AM.
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  6. #51
    Astonishing Member liwanag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Not even a joke. Batman has the incredible super-power of PLOT! Clark can throw an asteroid made of kryptonite into the sun, withstand direct blasts of a weaponized chunk of kryptonite the size of a fist (while also fighting Metallo at the same time) and otherwise just muscle through anything K-radiation poisoning can throw at him. Hurts like hell, but all it does is slow him down. Unless Batman is involved. Then the tiniest, most pointless sliver of a fraction of a speck of kryptonite is enough to leave Clark a blubbering, useless mess, peeing himself in his tights. It annoys me to no end. But, if they were to write a Bat-vs-Super fight properly, it would never be a fight at all, just Bruce waking up two hours later wondering what happened and why he hurts so much.

    .
    sometimes i wonder why there is a need to frequently pit batman and superman against each other when clearly there is disparity of power between the two. the main reason probably is they are the top 2 most popular characters dc has.

    id rather kal-el goes up against similar powerhouses like himself. hal, shazam, captain atom, lobo, captain comet, matian manhunter, dr fate.... aquaman shouldnt even be on supes level imo...

  7. #52
    Astonishing Member liwanag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    Of course...Superman might have the overwhelming belief that his strength and speed would overcome Hal's shield...he might win the "mental game" as well as the physical.

    Side issue...but I've always been sceptical that its reasonable to believe that the main GL's have stronger will power than several other DC characters. Compare what Hal did before he had the ring with what Batman or Jonah Hex routinely do with nothing more than determination and cussedness (otherwise known as will power!).
    well, very little of hal's life pre-glc days has been explored, but doesn't mean there are not any. maybe that could be the subject of future storylines. i'm not saying dc retcon hal (along with larry trainor and ace morgan) into members of a black ops blackhawk squadron or anything, just saying that willpower manifests itself in many forms. the most recent example i saw was a person refusing to give in to circumstances others may deem unbearable and still take care of family members in dire need.

  8. #53
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by liwanag View Post
    sometimes i wonder why there is a need to frequently pit batman and superman against each other when clearly there is disparity of power between the two. the main reason probably is they are the top 2 most popular characters dc has.

    id rather kal-el goes up against similar powerhouses like himself. hal, shazam, captain atom, lobo, captain comet, matian manhunter, dr fate.... aquaman shouldnt even be on supes level imo...
    Batman and Superman are polar opposites, as well as the two biggest, most widely recognized comic book characters on earth. That's why they get pitted against each other. It's cheap fan-wanking the writers should be above doing, honestly.

    And for my money, no one should be on Superman's level. That's the entire point of his character. He's about restraint in the face of ultimate power; knowing when to hit as hard as you can (and being really good at it), but also knowing when to keep a lid on things. That's something that modern culture has a hard time conceptualizing. They understood that back in the day though, and the character's popularity was never higher, and no one ever had a problem figuring out how he fit in next to his less powerful peers. It didnt matter that Batman could never take Superman in a fight, or that the very idea was ridiculous to begin with, Batman had his own areas of expertise where he was the best. It was enough for Batman to be the world's greatest detective and a highly skilled marital artist, he didnt have to be able to beat up gods and aliens too.
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  9. #54
    Astonishing Member liwanag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    Going back to original scenario... retrieval of an artefact in space... actually suggests that speed would most likely be more important than force.

    Which team could:-
    a/ Determine its exact position first?
    b/ Who could get to that position first?

    In the old days... I'd have said Superman had a lot more speed feats in both categories (i.e. in both scanning large areas to identify position quickly, and in being able to move faster in space). Nowadays... I just don't know.
    although superman has all this crazy vision powers (telescopic, ultraviolet, infared, microscopic, etc), i think it will be a lot quicker for a power ring (which will not be limited by line of sight) to scan any artifact orbiting the earth.

  10. #55
    forging evil plans victorxd1999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilden B. Lade View Post
    I'd say that we, the onlookers, would definitely be the winners when Wondy and Star Sapphire start going at it.
    Hehehehe

    Nice
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  11. #56
    Astonishing Member liwanag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Batman and Superman are polar opposites, as well as the two biggest, most widely recognized comic book characters on earth. That's why they get pitted against each other. It's cheap fan-wanking the writers should be above doing, honestly.

    And for my money, no one should be on Superman's level. That's the entire point of his character. He's about restraint in the face of ultimate power; knowing when to hit as hard as you can (and being really good at it), but also knowing when to keep a lid on things. That's something that modern culture has a hard time conceptualizing. They understood that back in the day though, and the character's popularity was never higher, and no one ever had a problem figuring out how he fit in next to his less powerful peers. It didnt matter that Batman could never take Superman in a fight, or that the very idea was ridiculous to begin with, Batman had his own areas of expertise where he was the best. It was enough for Batman to be the world's greatest detective and a highly skilled marital artist, he didnt have to be able to beat up gods and aliens too.
    im actually ok with superman having peers that could stand toe to toe with him. people like shazam and captain atom. it gets downright silly in my book when batman or even green arrow with kryptonite tipped arrows gets the drop on superman.

    as a hal jordan fan (and superman fan) i enjoy hal and superman on almost on the same level power wise. well not on sheer strength, gl needs to be on a different level due to the wide utility his power ring brings.

  12. #57
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by liwanag View Post
    im actually ok with superman having peers that could stand toe to toe with him. people like shazam and captain atom. it gets downright silly in my book when batman or even green arrow with kryptonite tipped arrows gets the drop on superman.

    as a hal jordan fan (and superman fan) i enjoy hal and superman on almost on the same level power wise. well not on sheer strength, gl needs to be on a different level due to the wide utility his power ring brings.
    That annoys me too.

    As for the likes of Captain Atom or Shazam (or others) being on Clark's power level, there's actually several out there, but most of them are powerful in a very different way. Superman's the physical guy, the blue collar, gets-his-hands-dirty powerhouse. And DC is never going to let anyone equal him when push comes to shove, so Diana and Shazam and J'onn, they end up as also-rans when it comes to this sort of thing, and I prefer seeing them focus on their own unique skills and abilities (Diana's combat skill and mythological knowledge, Shazam's magic, J'onn telepathy, ect) But you have characters like Zatanna and Firestorm, and they can literally re-write reality with their powers. They're as powerful as Clark, likely moreso. But it's a very different kind of power and comparing them is an apples and oranges sort of thing. I think the Lanterns fall into this realm too. I dont for a second think any Lantern out there could withstand a properly written Superman in a fight (for the record, post-Crisis was too weak to count as properly written in my book), but the Lanterns have a ton more utility and serve a very different purpose. Its sort of like saying Zee can't withstand a punch from Superman, so she must be much weaker. She's not, she's arguably more powerful, she's just not the same kind of powerful. I see the Lanterns the same way.
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  13. #58

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    Superman and Wonder Woman! (tho I'm a bit partisan) Still, it would be a cool fight ...

  14. #59
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  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by silly View Post
    it seems to me sapphire can handle her own against ww.

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