"It is a sad irony that the X-Women don’t get more screen time...."

[Star_Jammer]

YogaFlame,

RE: King Menes...according to this, "modern consensus" (which just means "agreement") yields one date, but there are several possibilities listed. If we are, however, going to take ancient sculpture at...heh...face value, have a look at these from ancient Jordan:



I'd like to know what you think of those thin lips and pointy noses.

Secondly, I need help with evidence that King Menes ruled in Jordan. Here only lists Egypt occupying Jordan from 15th to 13th century BC (1500-1300). Further more, here says that writing was developed in Egypt/Mesopotamia before 3,000 BC, but writing was not widely used in Jordan (despite evidence that Jordan traded with Egypt).

Lastly, one of the links I mentioned previously mentioned influence from Mesopotamia (between 5500 BC and 4500 BC), as evidenced by finding of pottery usage. It seems a lot of different cultures and people visited this area for quite a while, so is it possible someone born locally might be an amalgamation looks-wise?

I'd appreciate your help in piecing some of this together.

[yogaflame]

YogaFlame,

RE: King Menes...according to this, "modern consensus" (which just means "agreement") yields one date, but there are several possibilities listed. If we are, however, going to take ancient sculpture at...heh...face value, have a look at these from ancient Jordan:



I'd like to know what you think of those thin lips and pointy noses.

Secondly, I need help with evidence that King Menes ruled in Jordan. Here only lists Egypt occupying Jordan from 15th to 13th century BC (1500-1300). Further more, here says that writing was developed in Egypt/Mesopotamia before 3,000 BC, but writing was not widely used in Jordan (despite evidence that Jordan traded with Egypt).

Lastly, one of the links I mentioned previously mentioned influence from Mesopotamia (between 5500 BC and 4500 BC), as evidenced by finding of pottery usage. It seems a lot of different cultures and people visited this area for quite a while, so is it possible someone born locally might be an amalgamation looks-wise?

I'd appreciate your help in piecing some of this together.

Basically, there isn't a solid answer here.

First, the image you post can hardly be considered 'representational', so much as symbolic. If we look at the actual skulls from that culture and time(which is more like 7000 BC, and 100's of km north of Aqaba) https://youtu.be/AxBdAJM2lEM?t=238, you can see the more familiar details of KMTic faces, including the realistically sculpted hooded eye.

We can look at the Nile region to the west, Judea to the north, and Sumer to the east, but there just isn't a wealth of easily accessible archaeological data for Aqaba circa 4000 BC, as it wasn't a very vibrant/enduring cultural center at that time(which is why we have to look to the east or west), or look forward by thousands of years. That said, looking at the people we find to the east, the north and west, we gather a picture of the type of people in the region. Think about pre-Columbian North America. We can consider thousands of miles of terrain, with various climates and biomes, and dozens if not hundreds of specific tribes, and yet there is a homogeneous quality to the peoples you find there.

This video does a great job of comparing KMTic art with modern people in the region.



I think these people are the best representatives of the substrate of the region(and notice the wide variety to phenotypes*hair colors/textures/facial features, while all being undeniably Afro-asiatic), and a grey-skinned man of these people would be our En Sabah Nur. Persians, Romans/Macedonian and modern Arab faces won't factor into 4000 BC, as they quite frankly didn't exist yet. Oscar's Guatemalan-Cuban-French lineage is just completely off base, to be certain.

This is all fascinating, but I feel we have drifted far from our original discourse about Fox's treatment of female characters in the films.

[WallStreeter]

I was talking more about First Class where she spends almost all of the movie debating if she's ugly or not, thankfully she got over it in DOFP. But then instead she was debating whether or not she's a good guy or a bad guy.

2nd gen Mystique just has so much angst, 1st gen Mystique just got **** done.

2nd Generation Mystique is a long younger. By watching the younger versions of these characters we see how they later become the mutants we love. In DOFP Xavier struggled with depression and addiction. You actually got to see pretty good growth in both Mystique and Xavier's character arcs. Magneto is the one who didn't change.

And as another poster said, as the film ends Mystique isn't a fanatic like Magneto. She isn't a naive idealistic like Xavier. She's her own woman and she got **** done by knocking off Magneto's helmet.

[WallStreeter]

Note, the evil foreigner must be stopped by the mostly white good guys(only mallrat Jubilee).

Yay, so progressive!

Hopefully blond Raven will save the day!

Yes sadly that is progressive because the films could have remained all white and all male.

You're dealing with an industry that marginalizes WOMEN and MINORITIES and this is far greater than anything that Fox has done at it's worst to the X-Men.

Back to X-Men Apocalypse, at the end of the film Storm (non white) and Psylocke will be X-Men, so the X-men will have two more members of color, in a team that already has a lot of women. It is progressive and yes if you believe in progress sometimes people of color can be VILLAINS. Even LEAD VILLAINS. I am happy they chose Apocalypse because how many more times could they use Magneto or humans who hate mutants as lead villains?

[WallStreeter]

She was taking orders from him before that, notice the way he presents her when intimidating the general at the club. Showing her off like she was a curious toy.

And while Shaw was 'leader' in the comics, Emma had her own agenda. It's part of why she conspired with the other members of the Hellfire, no one was safe from the backstabbing and manipulating.



He liked TP, but I don't see how that makes him sexist. Shadow King and Mr Sinsiter were also prominent male telepaths he liked to use.

And Psylocke is really the only active TP on the team. Karma and Moonstar had psionic powers, but couldn't read minds or use their powers to communicate like a proper TP until way later (note they could not use cerebero). And I'd argue Moonstar and Psylocke were far from physically defenseless. Moonstar was highly creative with her environment more akin to Storm and Psylocke started to train in H2H before she became a ninja, when she started wearing armor.

Emma's agenda was not clear in the Hellfire Club's early appearances. Shaw was the undisputed leader. When a lightening bolt from Storm put Shaw into a coma, Emma tells the X-men that they have nothing to fear from the Hellfire Club until if and when Shaw woke up. So clearly he was the one totally in control at that time. Now later when Emma had the Massachusetts Academy and the Hellions then she was shown as having her own agenda and being more of a co-conspirer with Shaw.

Psylocke was the only X-Man that even had to wear body armor which shows how poor her hand to hand combat skills were considered. She was basically defenseless. They never would have had an adult male X-man join the X-Men with no combat skills. Look at Gambit and Longshot. When they joined the X-Men they had excellent combat skills.

The Shadow King is a psionic ghost, and Sinister is a male villain who is superstrong and has many other powers. He is not physically defenseless. Claremont created a lot of female characters (Psylocke, White Queen, Karma, Moonstar) who were telepaths or variations of telepaths who were originally physically defenseless. Psylocke and the White Queen were changed and grew out of that so are no longer the stereotype of the intuitive, manipulative woman because though they are still telepaths, they developed other powers and physical combat skills.

[WallStreeter]

I would be hard pressed to be convinced movie Emma is a strong character, she has almost no lines in the movie and is rarely used beyond prop boobs that are sometimes diamond. At least in the comics Emma is every bit as manipulative and authoritarian as Shaw ever was, but in the movie she's a boobed lacky who even when captured doesn't really show any competence.

Actual diamond Emma would have broke out of there, being in that room didn't stop her being a telepath and very little in that place would stop diamond laced impacts but she's still sat there waiting for Magneto to rescue her at the end of the movie.




The key factor in that scene is that she didn't lose her powers, she changed species. Without an X gene she isn't a mutant anymore. Granted she'd get her powers back later because the cure is a pipe dream, but Magneto and she didn't know that at the time.

Even the 'few' scenes she had actually showed depth that could be explored whenever. I much preferred that to the retcon history of her having been Xavier's sister but was apparently perfectly fine trying to kill him in the first movie.

That is true about Emma would have broken out using her diamond form or by hijacking the minds of her captures. Actually in the film she used her diamond form to cut the glass out so her captures could hear her. So obviously she could have escaped, but didn't for some reason. I guess the problem is if she had escaped what would she have needed Magneto for? And if she had already been out, she could have stopped Xavier from freezing Shaw telepathically, meaning Erik would be dead and Shaw and Frost would have won. Actually they would have been good they could have shown an awesome telepathic battle between Xavier and Frost.

The first X-Man movie to finally show a woman do the major heroic act is DOFP when Mystique stopped Magneto from killing off the White House and she was even credited in the news for that.

[WallStreeter]

Has everyone who has concerns about the marginalization of women in X-Men Films or in the superhero genre thought about making an online petition and then marketing it towards people who feel similarly? If a lot of people feel that way the petition could be sent to Fox and Disney/Marvel.

I think a lot of legit concerns have been brought up here but just talking about it on a message board has no impact. A petition might. Donald Trump after making racist comments found online petitions helped get a lot of his contracts canceled because when media and other companies found out how much of the public felt they wanted nothing to do with him.

So who is going to make the X-Woman marginalization petition?

[Iron Fist]

2nd Generation Mystique is a long younger. By watching the younger versions of these characters we see how they later become the mutants we love. In DOFP Xavier struggled with depression and addiction. You actually got to see pretty good growth in both Mystique and Xavier's character arcs. Magneto is the one who didn't change.

And as another poster said, as the film ends Mystique isn't a fanatic like Magneto. She isn't a naive idealistic like Xavier. She's her own woman and she got **** done by knocking off Magneto's helmet.

This only really applies to the beginning of DOFP and First Class, because the timeline diverged when she wasn't captured. In the original timeline Mystique was tortured and that soured her completely to humans, since all that didn't happen, as you said we have middle ground Mystique.

I still prefer dark Romijin Mystique, this might change with Apocalypse but I'm not fond of how Lawrence plays the character.

That is true about Emma would have broken out using her diamond form or by hijacking the minds of her captures. Actually in the film she used her diamond form to cut the glass out so her captures could hear her. So obviously she could have escaped, but didn't for some reason. I guess the problem is if she had escaped what would she have needed Magneto for? And if she had already been out, she could have stopped Xavier from freezing Shaw telepathically, meaning Erik would be dead and Shaw and Frost would have won. Actually they would have been good they could have shown an awesome telepathic battle between Xavier and Frost.

The first X-Man movie to finally show a woman do the major heroic act is DOFP when Mystique stopped Magneto from killing off the White House and she was even credited in the news for that.

She could easily have escaped purely for her own ends, it doesn't have to involve being a part of the rest of the movie. She had more than enough power in that cell/room where she could turn diamond and hear thoughts through the glass, so it doesn't make sense for her to stay there. It's just make the movie being dumb for an end credits scene to happen, which was massively wasted because Singer then killed her offscreen like an ass.

I would have loved to see a telepathic battle between Xavier and Frost, it might actually have established her as a capable female character instead of sparkly boobs mcgee.

[Star_Jammer]

I'd just like to point out that Mystique shot a bullet at Magneto, after she was witness to what happened to Xavier in First Class.

[ChronoRogue]

Emma's agenda was not clear in the Hellfire Club's early appearances. Shaw was the undisputed leader. When a lightening bolt from Storm put Shaw into a coma, Emma tells the X-men that they have nothing to fear from the Hellfire Club until if and when Shaw woke up. So clearly he was the one totally in control at that time. Now later when Emma had the Massachusetts Academy and the Hellions then she was shown as having her own agenda and being more of a co-conspirer with Shaw.

No, the club was established by Shaw and Emma working together in the first place. They manipulated the previous King and Queen to kill each other, then took the Black King and White Queen mantles themselves. Emma also tried a get rid of Shaw rather early on with Namor's help, but Selene proved to be the superior telepath and erased her memories. Why Selene wanted Shaw in power, I don't know... Emma was pretty independent from the HF club, since she had her side business of recruiting for the Massachusetts academy (see Kitty). Also she had the Academy very early on, even if the Hellions weren't formally introduced until later.

Shaw wasn't the most powerful member of the club and was never the scariest. He was a brute and served as a nice face, but the other members don't and didn't hesitate to backstab him at any available opportunity. Problem was Shaw was good at networking and the more powerful members preferred him in power instead of doing the dirty work themselves (ie Selene and sometimes Emma herself).

Psylocke was the only X-Man that even had to wear body armor which shows how poor her hand to hand combat skills were considered. She was basically defenseless. They never would have had an adult male X-man join the X-Men with no combat skills. Look at Gambit and Longshot. When they joined the X-Men they had excellent combat skills.

Don't you mean the only X-Men smart enough to wear armor? Being a skilled H2H combatant with no real physical powers (ie healing factor or enhanced durability) is risky. Again, she was not defenseless http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2793/...c848b8314b.jpg, she was like Storm and very quick on her feet. Heck before she was recruited to join the X-Men she joined S.T.R.I.K.E. (UK's Shield) PSI division who did spy missions and had H2H combat training under Captain UK (as a Captain Britain). So she wasn't a beginner to H2H even before she joined the X-Men and started to get into battles more regularly.

Almost all X-Men start out with no combat training before joining. The only one's that did have combat training in the 80s were Wolverine, Banshee, Longshot and Psylocke. Rogue might've had some training with Mystique, but given her physical powers it seems like she ignored the training. The 05, Colossus, Storm, Shadowcat, Nightcrawler, Havok and Polaris all grew to become more proficient in H2H over time.

The Shadow King is a psionic ghost, and Sinister is a male villain who is superstrong and has many other powers. He is not physically defenseless. Claremont created a lot of female characters (Psylocke, White Queen, Karma, Moonstar) who were telepaths or variations of telepaths who were originally physically defenseless. Psylocke and the White Queen were changed and grew out of that so are no longer the stereotype of the intuitive, manipulative woman because though they are still telepaths, they developed other powers and physical combat skills.

And? That doesn't discount them as TPs and while it isn't Sinister's only power he used it very often (show more than perhaps only his defensive abilities). Just look at how many times he used it during Inferno.

And TPs are pretty powerful, even without any extra powers, probably the reason CC didn't give them more powers was because he didn't want them to be too powerful for the villains. Male telepaths that were not villains usually don't have a large assembly of physical powers or prowess either, see Xavier, Quentin, X-Man, etc... Cable being the only exception (and he has his psonic powers suppressed anyway) but by then we had ninja Psylocke as well so moot point there.

You're seeing sexism where there isn't any. Moonstar and Karma weren't even written as manipulative as Psi's and even if a character was being written as manipulative, it's because the power itself lends itself that way. Emma was a villain and Psylocke was established early on as being like Wolverine in taking the means necessary type (her willingness to kill).

For evidence of telepaths being written as morally flexible, just look at how many skeletons in the closet Xavier and Cable have were they have misused their telepathy to manipulate people (and these are supposed to be heroes!). Most of which weren't handled by CC, but it shows the patterns in the writing.

I'm not sure how you can say CC wrote women stereo-typically when he was breaking so many stereotypes of them during his run.

[DDD]

Seems like it's going to change, but the women will be teens instead of women with any decision making power. While it's true they made Jean a Dr which is great, on the whole, they women didn't seem to matter much.

Chris didn't break stereotypes, he wrote them all the best he could. Lots of writers have done that and they all get taken for granted same as Chris.