"It is a sad irony that the X-Women don’t get more screen time...."

[ChronoRogue]

No Rogue had issues due to Cody and Rogue has also had issues due to not being able to be intimate with Gambit. The Carol Danvers thing is just the most visible example of her general angst over not being able to touch people which has manifested itself in many different forms.

Her primary motivation via Claremont was Carol, not him. Carol was what pushed her to joining the team, what lead her to wanting to seek redemption, to get rid of the ghost in her head and is what centered most of her characterization in the 80s. It's the basis of the character.

The Cody origin was introduced in the 90s, as was the the isolation and drama aspect with Gambit was at an all-time high, but by then Rogue was an already established character.

That is precisely what the movie showed. And by shine, I meant they got focus not they got to do cool things with their powers. Rogue's focus was on the one thing the comics have always heavily focused on. What were you expecting? That an Avenger appear in a film when Fox didn't have the rights to the Avengers?

Shine implies a focus but also bright performance. Which isn't what I'd describe with the X-Women.

And even then the focus didn't really compare to what Jackman was hogging.

As for expectations, I don't know, something a lot more equal than what we got? The Avengers did alright job at an ensemble cast. Much better than the X-films have been able to do.

You said she threw a tantrum. I am saying I recall no tantrum. I recall a request. Tantrum puts a spin on it that I don't think is accurate but if you have evidence of a tantrum rather than a request then provide it.

What would you call demanding more screentime and refusing to return if she didn't get it then?

I have been searching google and while I do find articles saying the same thing about Berry, can't find any direct quotes, most of the results are DOFP news which seems to have flooded google atm.

An how can you fridge someone by making them the hero at the end of the movie and then having them alive and one of the main characters in the sequel? You have basically twisted the definition of the word beyond all meaning. Jean Grey was not fridged. She willingly chose to sacrifice herself and save her friends which directly lead to her becoming the Dark Phoenix in the 3rd movie. Are you confused by the fact that a character isn't suppose to actually come back if they have been fridged?

Because that was basically the end of her character development. She died in X2 and that character she became in X3 was only her in body. Which only served to kill Xavier and Cyclops, then die for Wolverine.

At any rate, we are not going to agree. It just seems you are just interpreting everything in a manner to fit the narrative you have decided on.

That's what we all do remydat. Your not exactly being open-minded either.

[remydat]

1. Her primary motivation was her struggle with her absorptions powers. Claremont showed that via Carol and other writers showed that via Cody and Gambit. It's all part of her canon so what exactly is your point here? You can't just cherry pick the canon you like. Carol Danvers was not available for the movie so the most obvious way to show it for Rogue who was a teenager in the movies is by giving her a love interest who she can't touch. What would have been your alternative?

2. We agree they did not get as much focus as Jackman. And my response is so? A given comic book arc may may focus on a given character more than others. That does not mean everyone else got the shaft. Wolverine got more focus than everyone else but the other characters still had their moments as has been pointed out. Your response is basically to ignore that or say that just because they didn't get equal billing it means they were screwed which makes little sense to me.

3. Except it wasn't the end of JG's character development. The DPS is an iconic JG story and that is what the 3rd movie explored. It just did a shitty job of it which doesn't change the fact she got a lot of focus and development.

4. As for Fridging, the term loses it's meaning if you apply it to someone who heroically chose to sacrifice themselves for her friends and loved ones and who instead of never being heard from again becomes the principal antagonist of an entire movie. The below is from the site you linked. The only things that apply to Jean Grey is that she died and Wolverine cared about her. Those two things in and of themselves do not constitute Fridging. Per the below definition, no villain killed her (she sacrificed herself), she was not killed in a gruesome manner, nor was her body paraded around to cause Wolverine anguish. She simply appeared to die heroically and with dignity and in the 3rd movie, it was revealed her alternate personality was unleashed and wreaked havoc which is directly from the comic books. If that is fridging then I guess Chris Claremont fridged her in the original story for the benefit of Cyke.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...dIntoTheFridge

A character is killed off in a particularly gruesome manner and left to be found just to offend or insult someone, or to cause someone serious anguish. The usual victims are those who matter to the hero, specifically best buddies, love interests, and sidekicks.

The name of the trope comes from a storyline in Green Lantern, in which the villain Major Force leaves the corpse of Kyle Rayner's girlfriend, Alexandra DeWitt, literally stuffed into a refrigerator for him to find. Years later, Major Force repeated the gimmick with Kyle's mother in an oven. It was just a trick with a mannequin that time.

The term (sometimes formed as "fridging") was popularized by comic book writer Gail Simone through her website "Women in Refrigerators." On that site, Simone compiled a list of instances of female comic book characters who were killed off as a plot device. The term came to be used more broadly, over time, to refer to any character who is targeted by an antagonist who has them killed off, abused, raped, incapacitated, de-powered, or brainwashed for the sole purpose of affecting another character, motivating them to take action.

[ChronoRogue]

1. Her primary motivation was her struggle with her absorptions powers. Claremont showed that via Carol and other writers showed that via Cody and Gambit. It's all part of her canon so what exactly is your point here? You can't just cherry pick the canon you like. Carol Danvers was not available for the movie so the most obvious way to show it for Rogue who was a teenager in the movies is by giving her a love interest who she can't touch. What would have been your alternative?

My point is the characterization. How Rogue acted with the Carol drama and how Rogue acted via the Gambit drama were two entirely different things. 80s Rogue was confident, arrogant and an active character seeking ways to solve her problems. 90s Rogue complained and felt like she couldn't do anything about her absorption powers. It was a regression of character and part of the problem with her characterization in the 90s.

How Rogue acted in the movies was more similar to her 90s characterization, which I think completely misses the point of Claremont's characterization, her creator and founder of her base personality.

2. We agree they did not get as much focus as Jackman. And my response is so? A given comic book arc may may focus on a given character more than others. That does not mean everyone else got the shaft. Wolverine got more focus than everyone else but the other characters still had their moments as has been pointed out. Your response is basically to ignore that or say that just because they didn't get equal billing it means they were screwed which makes little sense to me.

So? The X-women did not get a fair shake in the movies because Jackman got way too much of the spotlight and plot centered around him. It's a problem of portraying the franchise as a single lead film, when in the comics it's an ensemble cast with no single POV character.

A few moments here and there does not make up for the amount of time the female characters got.

3. Except it wasn't the end of JG's character development. The DPS is an iconic JG story and that is what the 3rd movie explored. It just did a shitty job of it which doesn't change the fact she got a lot of focus and development.

What development did she get in X3? The only thing she (well, Dark Phoenix) did in the movie was the atomization of people and stare moodily at Wolverine. She was already dead at this point, the point of the story was Wolverine's development and reaction to the DP.

4. As for Fridging, the term loses it's meaning if you apply it to someone who heroically chose to sacrifice themselves for her friends and loved ones and who instead of never being heard from again becomes the principal antagonist of an entire movie. The below is from the site you linked. The only things that apply to Jean Grey is that she died and Wolverine cared about her. Those two things in and of themselves do not constitute Fridging. Per the below definition, no villain killed her (she sacrificed herself), she was not killed in a gruesome manner, nor was her body paraded around to cause Wolverine anguish. She simply appeared to die heroically and with dignity and in the 3rd movie, it was revealed her alternate personality was unleashed and wreaked havoc which is directly from the comic books. If that is fridging then I guess Chris Claremont fridged her in the original story for the benefit of Cyke.

There's also this definition from the broader scope of it

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...nRefrigerators

Women in Refrigerators is a site by Gail Simone, created in March 1999, to list super-heroines who have been "either de-powered, raped, or cut up and stuck in the refrigerator" in an effort to illustrate that female superheroes are disproportionately likely to be brutalized in comic books, usually to further the character arc of male super heroes. It also spawned the infamous Women In Refrigerators meme, which has sparked a number of controversies regarding the subject.

Doesn't saying anything about it necessarily having to be through a villain, though I can see why rape and cut-up in parts might.

Actually I take it back, what I mean is covered right below--

Double Standard: The site's thesis is that there is a Double Standard against superheroines: women with superpowers are disproportionately subjected to death or "life-derailing tragedies".

Which fits Jean's situation and connection to Logan to serve his development without involving an outright villain.

Point is Jean did die and she was paraded around Wolverine to cause him anguish. Dark Phoenix was used to basically toy with Wolverine that his love had gone insane. It really wasn't about Jean at all.

[remydat]

1. 90s Rogue is still canon. So if you have a problem with the fact her movie persona was based on the 90s version of her then that's a problem with the source material. The movies didn't force 90s writers to write her that way.

2. The comics have thousands of issues to showcase all the characters. The movies have 2 hours. A movie is more akin to an arc in a comic book and the point is this particular arc focused on Wolverine but other characters still got opportunities. Wolverine did not save the day by himself. In the first and second movies Storm and Jean Grey also were heavily involved in saving the day as has been mentioned. If the movies were a TV show with 24 episodes a season, I could understand you point better but in a 2 hour movie inevitably there is going to be a lead character team or not.

3. In X3, we got flashbacks that explained how Jean's alternate personality came about. We got an explanation that when she was young both Xavier and Mags met her to reveal to her the nature of her powers which established the relationship between her and Mags. We got an explanation of how Xavier repressed the destructive part of her personality and how expending her power like she did to prevent herself from drowning unleashed that personality. It was perfectly obvious from the movie that the JG personality was more aligned with Xavier's philosophy while the DP personality was more aligned with Magneto. Thus the internal conflict within Jean Grey was a microcosm of the conflict between Xavier and Mags for the hearts and minds of mutants. That has nothing to do with Wolverine. Absolutely nothing. You earlier claimed it made no sense why she would side with Mags which is completely absurd. It made perfect sense as explained in the movie.

4. Jean Grey was not de-powered (in fact it was the opposite), she was not raped or cut-up. As for your other definition of superheroines being disproportionately subjected to death or life-derailing tragedies, as I stated in 1 above, that is a problem with the source material. Jean Grey's most iconic stories in the comics are of her dying/sacrificing herself for the greater good. So again, if you are going to use that definition then your problem is with the original DPS as told by Chris Claremont and not the movie. The movie simply took the most iconic JG story of all time and replaced Cyclops with Wolverine.

So the point here is you are laying blame at the movies for something that the comics created. The comics created whiny Rogue and the comics created DP Jean Grey and her perpetual death and rebirth which should be obvious since the comics are the one's that named her after a mythological bird whose most noticeably quality is the fact that it dies and is reborn.

[DDD]

It's hard to blame the writing for this, every single one of the actresses cast in those roles made it painfully obvious in their performances that couldn't care less about the characters they were playing and had never opened a comic in their lives. When you have people there who are only in it for the paycheck, it's hard to really give them more screen time or a bigger role in the narrative. Whatever you want to say about Jackman hogging all the spotlight, at least he really seemed to love playing Wolverine and it definitely showed through in his performance. That's not to say that Janssen, Berry, or Paquin aren't talented, but they clearly didn't give a **** about X-Men and that was blatantly obvious on screen.

By the way this isn't an indictment of the actresses involved either, you'd be seriously hard pressed to find too many women in Hollywood who are really passionate about superheroes. But given who you have cast, you give more time to the people that will make the film more entertaining and that's what the X-Men films did.

Halle Berry seemed interested. Mystique got a lot to do because she`snude. It's the directors or investors or whatever.

[DDD]

My point is the characterization. How Rogue acted with the Carol drama and how Rogue acted via the Gambit drama were two entirely different things. 80s Rogue was confident, arrogant and an active character seeking ways to solve her problems. 90s Rogue complained and felt like she couldn't do anything about her absorption powers. It was a regression of character and part of the problem with her characterization in the 90s.

How Rogue acted in the movies was more similar to her 90s characterization, which I think completely misses the point of Claremont's characterization, her creator and founder of her base personality.



So? The X-women did not get a fair shake in the movies because Jackman got way too much of the spotlight and plot centered around him. It's a problem of portraying the franchise as a single lead film, when in the comics it's an ensemble cast with no single POV character.

A few moments here and there does not make up for the amount of time the female characters got.



What development did she get in X3? The only thing she (well, Dark Phoenix) did in the movie was the atomization of people and stare moodily at Wolverine. She was already dead at this point, the point of the story was Wolverine's development and reaction to the DP.



There's also this definition from the broader scope of it

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...nRefrigerators


Doesn't saying anything about it necessarily having to be through a villain, though I can see why rape and cut-up in parts might.

Actually I take it back, what I mean is covered right below--



Which fits Jean's situation and connection to Logan to serve his development without involving an outright villain.

Point is Jean did die and she was paraded around Wolverine to cause him anguish. Dark Phoenix was used to basically toy with Wolverine that his love had gone insane. It really wasn't about Jean at all.

Same with kid sidekicks too since the 80s. Only the man man can take risks and accomplish anything.

[anyajenkins]

1. 90s Rogue is still canon. So if you have a problem with the fact her movie persona was based on the 90s version of her then that's a problem with the source material. The movies didn't force 90s writers to write her that way.

Blasphemy! 90's rogue was tons more fun/interesting than movie rogue. 90's rogue was never almost killed by a seatbelt, twice. The storyline of rogue dealing with her powers was to 'be sad' for two movies (and help show wolverine's 'softer side') and then get the cure because her boyfriend was talking to another girl. She did get to do a few useful things, there was that, and then it ended with she changed her dna so her boyfriend won't leave her. *boo*

Jean's 'heroic sacrifice' would have been better if it wasn't...dumb. Just stay in the plane while you make the tk shield and lift the plane up. what's the point of leaving the plane except to heroically sacrifice herself. Couldn't they figure out a better way to off her?

[DDD]

90's rogue was never almost killed by a seatbelt, twice.

Wow! She's worse than a Tamagochi.

[ChronoRogue]

1. 90s Rogue is still canon. So if you have a problem with the fact her movie persona was based on the 90s version of her then that's a problem with the source material. The movies didn't force 90s writers to write her that way.

90s Rogue is a shell of 80s Rogue. Why take on an interpretation of a character at their weakest, without even adding anything that was good during that period. And at last 90s Rogue wasn't a damsel in distress even if she did whine a lot.

It's a bad point to focus on and and one that wasn't even really delved into much. Again, not shining here.

The comics have thousands of issues to showcase all the characters. The movies have 2 hours. A movie is more akin to an arc in a comic book and the point is this particular arc focused on Wolverine but other characters still got opportunities. Wolverine did not save the day by himself. In the first and second movies Storm and Jean Grey also were heavily involved in saving the day as has been mentioned. If the movies were a TV show with 24 episodes a season, I could understand you point better but in a 2 hour movie inevitably there is going to be a lead character team or not.

X1 was understandable, but what was the excuse for X2 and X3? He didn't have to dominate as much screentime as he did at that point, the ball was already rolling. They should've spread the POV around much more than they did and especially toward the women.

One scene of saving the day a movie is not nearly enough character development.

Movies can do ensemble casts, it's been proven over and over again. X-Men does not have a reason to focus on Wolverine so much beyond Singer's obvious favoritism.

In X3, we got flashbacks that explained how Jean's alternate personality came about. We got an explanation that when she was young both Xavier and Mags met her to reveal to her the nature of her powers which established the relationship between her and Mags. We got an explanation of how Xavier repressed the destructive part of her personality and how expending her power like she did to prevent herself from drowning unleashed that personality. It was perfectly obvious from the movie that the JG personality was more aligned with Xavier's philosophy while the DP personality was more aligned with Magneto. Thus the internal conflict within Jean Grey was a microcosm of the conflict between Xavier and Mags for the hearts and minds of mutants. That has nothing to do with Wolverine. Absolutely nothing. You earlier claimed it made no sense why she would side with Mags which is completely absurd. It made perfect sense as explained in the movie.

Except DP was insane, not aligned with Magneto. It wasn't even really explained why she joined him in the film, beyond maybe him bothering her less than at the institute. She didn't really express an opinion on his stance of mutant supremacy before she went crazy and started vaporizing everyone. Most of the time she was either mute or out of it.

It's clear the main reason she was written to go to Magneto was so Wolverine would have an excuse to attack the camp. Which he did.

Jean Grey was not de-powered (in fact it was the opposite), she was not raped or cut-up. As for your other definition of superheroines being disproportionately subjected to death or life-derailing tragedies, as I stated in 1 above, that is a problem with the source material. Jean Grey's most iconic stories in the comics are of her dying/sacrificing herself for the greater good. So again, if you are going to use that definition then your problem is with the original DPS as told by Chris Claremont and not the movie. The movie simply took the most iconic JG story of all time and replaced Cyclops with Wolverine.

No, but she was crushed in a flood. Did you miss the second part of the quote which includes any death and life-altering tragedy? It's a broad subject, the main point as I've been repeatedly pointing out is the use of the female character to further a male's development.

The original DPS wasn't about anyone specific character (beyond Jean) and the story did a MUCH better job of showing all the characters view points. Cyclops was affected the most, but he was not the POV character. And that's why it looked so bad in the films, because at the end of the day the only real development was for Logan. Everyone else that Jean's death should've mattered to got very little screen-time and/or died.

So the point here is you are laying blame at the movies for something that the comics created. The comics created whiny Rogue and the comics created DP Jean Grey and her perpetual death and rebirth which should be obvious since the comics are the one's that named her after a mythological bird whose most noticeably quality is the fact that it dies and is reborn.

No it's not the comics, it's the lack of screentime and the execution of the material. I don't need the films to accurately reflect the comics to the letter, but I do expect them to translate the most important bits of the franchise and to treat all the main characters fairly. Which I don't think they've done a good job of at all.

Same with kid sidekicks too since the 80s. Only the man man can take risks and accomplish anything.

Yeah, actually now that I think about it, the X-Men are basically Wolverine's sidekicks. Ugh.

[jen]

Blasphemy! 90's rogue was tons more fun/interesting than movie rogue. 90's rogue was never almost killed by a seatbelt, twice. The storyline of rogue dealing with her powers was to 'be sad' for two movies (and help show wolverine's 'softer side') and then get the cure because her boyfriend was talking to another girl. She did get to do a few useful things, there was that, and then it ended with she changed her dna so her boyfriend won't leave her. *boo*

Jean's 'heroic sacrifice' would have been better if it wasn't...dumb. Just stay in the plane while you make the tk shield and lift the plane up. what's the point of leaving the plane except to heroically sacrifice herself. Couldn't they figure out a better way to off her?

Yeah, it isn't screen time or focus that is bad it is the loss of power with which these heroic women were written. Rogue, a scrappy heroic fighter was reduced to a plot device and an extremely passive character. It's like saying the lets make a Justice League movie and include Superman, but we will have him be Smallville Clark and his entire role is to pine for Lana Lang. It was just bad. Anyone who only saw the movies has no idea how truly awesome and heroic Rogue is. In fact you would be hard press for anyone to think she was a hero at all. Her role was definitely damsel in distress.

[remydat]

Blasphemy! 90's rogue was tons more fun/interesting than movie rogue. 90's rogue was never almost killed by a seatbelt, twice. The storyline of rogue dealing with her powers was to 'be sad' for two movies (and help show wolverine's 'softer side') and then get the cure because her boyfriend was talking to another girl. She did get to do a few useful things, there was that, and then it ended with she changed her dna so her boyfriend won't leave her. *boo*

Jean's 'heroic sacrifice' would have been better if it wasn't...dumb. Just stay in the plane while you make the tk shield and lift the plane up. what's the point of leaving the plane except to heroically sacrifice herself. Couldn't they figure out a better way to off her?

I was merely responding to what the poster said. The point was if that poster thinks the character was based on 90s Rogue then the fault is with the source material and not the movies.

As for Jean's sacrifice, Plot Induced Stupidity has always been a problem in the comics and movies so again I don't view that as Women getting a raw deal. I view that as a problem with the Super Hero medium as a whole.

[ChronoRogue]

I was merely responding to what the poster said. The point was if that poster thinks the character was based on 90s Rogue then the fault is with the source material and not the movies.

As for Jean's sacrifice, Plot Induced Stupidity has always been a problem in the comics and movies so again I don't view that as Women getting a raw deal. I view that as a problem with the Super Hero medium as a whole.

I don't think she's based on 90s Rogue. An aspect of 90s Rogue, yes, but Movie Rogue is missing a couple of things. And one obvious and important part. A spine.

It's like they combined the worst aspects of Rogue and Kitty and the product was what came out in the trilogy.

[jen]

I don't think she's based on 90s Rogue. An aspect of 90s Rogue, yes, but Movie Rogue is missing a couple of things. And one obvious and important part. A spine.

Yes. The character was not the essential Rogue (her powers were not even the same!) but a similar damsel in distress character who had Rogue's name and a sort of characteristic to her isolation loosely based on a retcon origin story. It was very dismissive to fans of the hero Rogue.

[ChronoRogue]

Yes. The character was not the essential Rogue (her powers were not even the same!) but a similar damsel in distress character who had Rogue's name and a sort of characteristic to her isolation loosely based on a retcon origin story. It was very dismissive to fans of the hero Rogue.

Yeah, I think Bryan wanted to use Kitty but she wasn't high-profile enough, so settled on the bad amalgam character that is movie Rogue.

[remydat]

ChronoRogue,

1. They have a 2 hour movie and don't have the luxury of hundreds of comic book issues to expound on all of this. They chose the vision of Rogue that was actually the most recent and ran with it. Again, the problem was the source material.

2. I simply disagree that he dominated X2. As has been pointed out, Storm had her moments where she helped save the day and Jean had the ultimate moment of saving the day. I am not sure I even recall Wolverine being a big hero in that movie at all. Like what were his heroic scenes that outshone everyone? I only remember one or two scenes not a bunch. As for X3, as has already been stated, they wanted to do the DPS and replaced Cyke with Wolverine. The only way for Wolverine not to have been a focus is if Cyke was the focus because the story of Jean's decent into insanity would obviously heavily involve her love interest as did Claremont's original story. So Wolverine did not get focus in lieu of the women. He got focus in lieu of Cyke which has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

3. Again the movie made it clear that Xavier and Mags had vied basically for Jean Grey's soul and that this battle was a microcosm of their larger battle for the soul of all mutants. Jean Grey (ie the non-destructive side) chose Xavier while the destructive side of her (DP) was repressed by Xavier. Mags clearly represented the destructive side of the mutant conflict so it is perfectly obvious why the DP would side with him. You can't honestly claim this was complicated to follow?

4. And in the comics, Jean Grey was mindraped by Mastermind. Is that not life altering? Again, the point here is if you are trying to use that definition then it applies to the original story. Jean Grey was mindfucked by Mastermind, did a lot of fucked up things and then was killed off. Fundamentally they are the same story and I see no logical way you could argue one was fridging and the other wasn't. Basically it just seems like your idea of fridging is if I like a character having death or life-altering things happen to them it's all good but if I don't it's fridging.