Naruto

[Mantis Girl 94]

Just watched Naruto the last movie over the holidays! It made me cry with joy!

[Divine Spark]

Man, did this series became awful.

[Jcogginsa]

On another site there's a Organized Naruto re-reading going on, and a few tidbits have become apparent

One of these is the fact there were weeks between Sasuke's encounter with the sound 4 and him leaving the village

[Jcogginsa]

Some other things I've realized from that Re-Read

1. The Itachi Backstory wasn't an asspull
2. The Kabuto backstory was thought of well in advance
3. The Sasuke vs. Deidara fight is one of the best in the series and it's ending is not an asspull
4. Flashbacks aren't nearly as everpresent as perceived. I blame the Anime
5. All of the members of Akatsuki are ridiculously bullshit

[Dark Soul # 7]

Some other things I've realized from that Re-Read

1. The Itachi Backstory wasn't an asspull

I don't think people called it an asspull. They were just disappointed with it.

Me, I just don't care for Itachi. Because he's a manipulative, absolutist crazy piece of ****. And the series barely ever acknowledges that he's a ****.

2. The Kabuto backstory was thought of well in advance

...did people complain about that one?

3. The Sasuke vs. Deidara fight is one of the best in the series and it's ending is not an asspull

I disagree on both counts.

4. Flashbacks aren't nearly as everpresent as perceived. I blame the Anime

This is true. Just like how the DBZ manga is much more fast paced than the anime.

5. All of the members of Akatsuki are ridiculously bullshit

...in what way?

[Jcogginsa]

I disagree on both counts.



...in what way?

Before I get into the stuff about the Sasuke vs. Deidara battle, When was the last time you read through it? Just for sake of reference.

Anyway, here's why I think it's one of the best, and why the Manda stuff wasn't an asspull

1. The fight is an exemplary case of characters winning by being intelligent instead of using pure power or Hax.
2. Based on the context in the fight itself, This was definately not a spur of the moment scenario. The most likely intended reading is that Sasuke, at some point in the past, put a Genjutsu on Manda as a general purpose means of escape. Backing this up, less the minute before Deidara activates his suicide bomb, Sasuke mentions he had another way to escape his previous attack if he'd needed to. Finally, though it's often said that Sasuke was out of Chakra in that scene, that's not really backed up by the events in the scene, since we know that if he were out, Orochimaru would escape as he does in the Itachi fight.

As the for Akatsuki character's being ridiculously bullshit: Their modus operandi is to walk into heavily fortified Ninja villages, pick a fight with one of the strongest ninjas in said village, kick ass, then walk right back out. Even the weakest pair, Hidan and Kakuzu, still caused/survived a lot of destruction in their battle with Yugito

[Dark Soul # 7]

Before I get into the stuff about the Sasuke vs. Deidara battle, When was the last time you read through it? Just for sake of reference.

I will admit. It's not fresh enough that I remember the smallest details. But I've got the basic gist of it in my mind.

Anyway, here's why I think it's one of the best, and why the Manda stuff wasn't an asspull

1. The fight is an exemplary case of characters winning by being intelligent instead of using pure power or Hax.

There's plenty of those and a lot of them are just more satisfying. And I'd be more impressed by the intelligence of it if Sasuke's natural affinity wasn't a perfect counter to Deidara's.

This fight isn't helped by that this is Sasuke at his most stoic/least interesting, it's to the point where you just want his annoying no face to be punched in. Meanwhile Deidara is all the fun and it kinda feels like a waste of him.

Granted, this is all very YMMV-territory.

2. Based on the context in the fight itself, This was definately not a spur of the moment scenario. The most likely intended reading is that Sasuke, at some point in the past, put a Genjutsu on Manda as a general purpose means of escape. Backing this up, less the minute before Deidara activates his suicide bomb, Sasuke mentions he had another way to escape his previous attack if he'd needed to. Finally, though it's often said that Sasuke was out of Chakra in that scene, that's not really backed up by the events in the scene, since we know that if he were out, Orochimaru would escape as he does in the Itachi fight.

If that first wasn intended to be a hint for this then that's neat. But it still feels like a bit too weak of a set up for the pay off, like Kaguya basically.

Wasn't it that he needed to actively draw on Orochimaru's powers while drained of his own for the big snake to escape? And even if that wasn't the case the dude didn't have enough chakra to stand on his own. Summoning Manda, a big deal, should've pushed him over the edge so that Orochimaru started taking over.

And then there's the whole speed thing to deal with, especially since it's drawn like he's totally in the middle of the explosion and hasn't started summoning Manda.

The whole thing just isn't that well presented.

As the for Akatsuki character's being ridiculously bullshit: Their modus operandi is to walk into heavily fortified Ninja villages, pick a fight with one of the strongest ninjas in said village, kick ass, then walk right back out. Even the weakest pair, Hidan and Kakuzu, still caused/survived a lot of destruction in their battle with Yugito

I was wondering what kind of BS you meant basically. And yeah, what you're saying is basically true.

Though there are caveats for most of the known Akatsuki/Jinchuuriki enouncters.

- Itachi and Kisame only went in when Konoha was at its weakest and Naruto wasn't all that strong. Granted, that was to check up on Sasuke more than anything else but then they aimed at capturing Naruto.
- Deidara totally did what you say, but he only won by endagering Gaara's village.
- Yugito was all alone when Hidan and Kakuzu cornered her together.
- The Sanbi didn't seem to even have a host when Deidara and Tobi fought it (the Sanbi and Yagura's timeline is a bit weird).
- Roshi was also alone when Kisame captured him, Kisame probably being the most suited for capturing Jinchuuriki.
- Pain totally did all that you say. He got into Konoha, wrecked the place and kicked Naruto's ass for a good part of their fight. Pain is still totally my favourite villain of the series.

[Jcogginsa]

I will admit. It's not fresh enough that I remember the smallest details. But I've got the basic gist of it in my mind.

There's plenty of those and a lot of them are just more satisfying. And I'd be more impressed by the intelligence of it if Sasuke's natural affinity wasn't a perfect counter to Deidara's.

This fight isn't helped by that this is Sasuke at his most stoic/least interesting, it's to the point where you just want his annoying no face to be punched in. Meanwhile Deidara is all the fun and it kinda feels like a waste of him.

Granted, this is all very YMMV-territory.

If that first wasn intended to be a hint for this then that's neat. But it still feels like a bit too weak of a set up for the pay off, like Kaguya basically.

Wasn't it that he needed to actively draw on Orochimaru's powers while drained of his own for the big snake to escape? And even if that wasn't the case the dude didn't have enough chakra to stand on his own. Summoning Manda, a big deal, should've pushed him over the edge so that Orochimaru started taking over.

And then there's the whole speed thing to deal with, especially since it's drawn like he's totally in the middle of the explosion and hasn't started summoning Manda.

The whole thing just isn't that well presented.

I was wondering what kind of BS you meant basically. And yeah, what you're saying is basically true.

Though there are caveats for most of the known Akatsuki/Jinchuuriki enouncters.

- Itachi and Kisame only went in when Konoha was at its weakest and Naruto wasn't all that strong. Granted, that was to check up on Sasuke more than anything else but then they aimed at capturing Naruto.
- Deidara totally did what you say, but he only won by endagering Gaara's village.
- Yugito was all alone when Hidan and Kakuzu cornered her together.
- The Sanbi didn't seem to even have a host when Deidara and Tobi fought it (the Sanbi and Yagura's timeline is a bit weird).
- Roshi was also alone when Kisame captured him, Kisame probably being the most suited for capturing Jinchuuriki.
- Pain totally did all that you say. He got into Konoha, wrecked the place and kicked Naruto's ass for a good part of their fight. Pain is still totally my favourite villain of the series.

Then you may need to re-read it, depending on how long ago you read it.

Lightning trumping Earth Techniques was already pre-established, and Sasuke was also pre-established to have a lightning affinity. Deidara's moves wouldn't make since to be in any other element. So I can't fault the fight for that. Plus it's not as simple as "Lightning Superior, Earth inferior." Sasuke has to use actual deduction to figure out how to beat Deidara

As for the Speed thing, I think it's plausible even if it isn't entirely believable. As for Chakra, there's no indication that Sasuke is out of it and he's been using Orochimaru's power for most of the fight, she he should have plenty of his own left

---
Technically Yugito was fought inside a city (Or a town at least), she was only alone because she lead Akatsuki into a trap. And at the end of the fight, the city they were in had been demolished, along with half a mountain

[Dark Soul # 7]

Then you may need to re-read it, depending on how long ago you read it.

No need.

I know what I need to know.

Lightning trumping Earth Techniques was already pre-established, and Sasuke was also pre-established to have a lightning affinity. Deidara's moves wouldn't make since to be in any other element. So I can't fault the fight for that.

I know that the elemental affinities and their weaknesses and strengths were established before this fight and that Sasuke was established as having fire and lightning affinities.

Deidara's being earth totally makes sense and I never said that it didn't.

I didn't fault any of this in regards to the fight. Just saying that Sasuke's great deduction was to figure out if Deidara had earth techniques or not.

Plus it's not as simple as "Lightning Superior, Earth inferior." Sasuke has to use actual deduction to figure out how to beat Deidara

It wasn't that much of a deduction really due to the tools and abilities at Sasuke's disposal. They make a big deal of explaining it but still just seems pretty average for most Naruto fights before the everybody can blow up mountains part of the series. Then it was largely a case of "My Kung Fu beats yours". And there's nothing wrong with that.

I just don't care that much for that fight.

As for the Speed thing, I think it's plausible even if it isn't entirely believable. As for Chakra, there's no indication that Sasuke is out of it and he's been using Orochimaru's power for most of the fight, she he should have plenty of his own left

Dude fell over just from using a no name lightning technique towards the end. That doesn't exactly tell me that he has plenty of reserve energy left.

Technically Yugito was fought inside a city (Or a town at least), she was only alone because she lead Akatsuki into a trap. And at the end of the fight, the city they were in had been demolished, along with half a mountain

My point was that she wasn't in a heavily fortfied army town and they she fought against two people rather than one.

[Jcogginsa]

Dude fell over just from using a no name lightning technique towards the end. That doesn't exactly tell me that he has plenty of reserve energy left.

He fell over from channeling a poweful electric current through his own body. Electric currents make standing dificult, see anyone who has ever been tased

[Dark Soul # 7]

He fell over from channeling a poweful electric current through his own body.

...you mean unlike all the other times he channels electricity through his body without being affected whatsoever by it.

Like, that's one of his main gimmicks. Hitting people with lightning techniques he produces from his own body.

Electric currents make standing dificult, see anyone who has ever been tased

I am aware of what real electrical currents do to real people in the real world.

[Jcogginsa]

...you mean unlike all the other times he channels electricity through his body without being affected whatsoever by it.

Like, that's one of his main gimmicks. Hitting people with lightning techniques he produces from his own body.

I am aware of what real electrical currents do to real people in the real world.

There's a clear difference between emiting electricity from the outside of your body and stabbing yourself with a chidori whilst directing the current through yourself

[Dark Soul # 7]

There's a clear difference between emiting electricity from the outside of your body and stabbing yourself with a chidori whilst directing the current through yourself

But he's not doing that.

Deidara sends out clay snakes at Sasuke. They wrap around his legs. Sasuke activates a variant of his chidori, like he did when he faced team 7. The snakes are neutralised by the electricity. Sasuke falls to his knees because he's low on chakra.

There is no indication whatsoever that he stabbed himself with a chidori. Has he ever done that to attack an opponent? That would be dumb move. Especially since he doesn't need to.

[Jcogginsa]

But he's not doing that.

Deidara sends out clay snakes at Sasuke. They wrap around his legs. Sasuke activates a variant of his chidori, like he did when he faced team 7. The snakes are neutralised by the electricity. Sasuke falls to his knees because he's low on chakra.

There is no indication whatsoever that he stabbed himself with a chidori. Has he ever done that to attack an opponent? That would be dumb move. Especially since he doesn't need to.

Deidara: So you ran that last raikiri through your own body?

Deidara's statement, and the picture of Sasuke doing so, says differently

[Dark Soul # 7]

Deidara: So you ran that last raikiri through your own body?

Deidara's statement, and the picture of Sasuke doing so, says differently

Fine. I'll look through the damn thing.

*does so*

He doesn't stab himself. He does use the chidori to send electricity through his body, but it's not really a stab. There's not even a flesh wound and he's perfectly capable of moving around afterwards.

Then we come to the scene I describe and he falls over from using a no name lightning technique and Deidara calls him out on having low chakra.

Let's just agree to disagree because I doubt we're going to get any further than this.