What if National Publications never bought out All-American Publications?

[Jim Kelly]

It might be fun to think that way, but in truth Superman and Batman would no doubt still be running around and popular. Things like the Atom, Hawkman, Flash, and Green Lantern couldn't keep there popularity and dropped out of publishing. Aquaman and Green Arrow were run as backup stories and for staying in publications every month were far more popular than Flash or Green Lantern. DC still sues Fawcett over Captain Marvel no change there. Wonder Woman not kept in publication reverts to the Marston family.

I know Marvel needed DC to publish them in the early 60's if they still do so I believe Marvel has a much larger share of the comic market.

Jack Liebowitz had an interest in both National/DC and All-American--which is kind of why they were allied. Jack Liebowitz had a stake in the Independent News Company which distributed the A-A and DC lines. Later in the '50s, Liebowitz through Independent News bought the distribution rights for Martin Goodman's publications, MAD magazine and PLAYBOY magazine.

Something I read in relation to Bob Rozakis's book got me thinking. Either Rozakis or someone else said that DC created a lot of characters in their books as a hedge against the possibility that All-American would break away and take their heroes with them. If you think about this then Johnny Quick seems the most obvious DC counterpart. But I think there were several others--even though they don't seem exactly the same--Green Arrow might have had his name as a counterpart to Green Lantern.

When DC bought out A-A, I think they were prejudiced against the All-American line and that's why most of them got cancelled first, before the DC heroes met the same fate. Green Arrow, Robotman, Johnny Quick, Shining Knight, Congo Bill, Vigilante, Zatara, Aquaman all managed to stay on a lot longer than the A-A superheroes. Jack Schiff and Mort Weisinger were like the senior editors, while Julius Schwartz and Bob Kanigher--having come from A-A--were treated more like junior editors.

Had the shoe been on the other foot, then Green Lantern, Flash, Hawkman, Black Canary, Black Pirate, Ghost Patrol might have stuck around a bit longer. And maybe a few would have even survived into the late '50s like Green Arrow, Aquaman and Congo Bill.

[Ed Love]

A big part of Fawcett's ceasing to publish Captain Marvel had to do with the changing times though. They thought that comics were on the way out, most of their superhero stuff was already gone and decided to focus their money on paperback publishing. It's highly possible that they wouldn't have continued with comics even without the lawsuit. Standard/Nedor followed much the same path.

I have a hard time buying that Superman & Batman would have fallen into obscurity even if the two companies did split. Their lasting power is too evident. If anything, I think we'd have seen a faster fade of the All-American titles. The most popular of their characters and concepts were not strong enough to last past the changing tastes other than as back-ups. If All-American is firmly linked to the rise of EC and then Wertham's crusade came along, we'd probably have seen them and Wonder Woman fall with the rest.

Another factor is Quality Comics. Would one of the arms that was DC have bought them? Or could the reverse have happened, and Quality stepped in and buy the failing All-American? Or would both simply become part of the landscape of failed comic companies. Or Charlton picking both up along with Fox. Thus, it's Charlton that publishes a new Flash and Green Lantern. The Justice League is created with Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern, Dan Garrett Blue Beetle, and Captain Atom.

With the success, Fawcett relaunches their comic line. DC answers with the Legion of Super Heroes only as a present day team of adults.

[Jim Kelly]

Although Fawcett got out of the comics business in 1953--and could afford to do so because they had other media interests--they got back into the comics business in 1959 (collectors usually identify this iteration of Fawcett as Hallden-Fawcett). Virtually all their titles were related to Dennis the Menace, but they survived until 1980.

If a Gaines company like All-American/EC had enough diversity in their line, then I think they could have survived the Comics Code. Harvey comics was a much different company in the early '50s. When I was a kid in the '60s, I associated Harvey with harmless funny books for little kids--Richie Rich, Stumbo, Sad Sack, Casper, Hot Stuff. I was surprised to find that Harvey had once been a very different company publishing all sorts of genre comics--everything from super-heroes to horror. By switching to family friendly comics, they not only survived but prospered for many years and even outlasted most other publishers, continuing publication until 2000. In fact, there's a chance that Harvey Comics could rise again in some fashion.

[Tony]

I think in some ways DC would be better off. You'd still have the whole Superman and Batman family books. As someone mentioned Legion. I have felt for years the DC universe is too large, being more along the lines of say Archie with 10 or 12 titles would make a very strong company quality wise. Only the best writers and artists, no 100 titles published in a month filled with second string creative teams.

[Jim Kelly]

What All-American had going for them is that they had a lot of the humour comics. They had MUTT & JEFF and a lot of the funny animal comics. Of course the DC side also had strong humour comics. After the decline of super-heroes in the post-war era, the humour comics were a profitable staple. It's interesting to consider whether Bob Hope and Martin & Lewis would have become A-A titles. By the early '50s, western and war comics were very popular, as were romance. Julie Scwhartz edited some of the western comics, while Bob Kanigher edited many war and romance comics.

[LordUltimus]

Although Fawcett got out of the comics business in 1953--and could afford to do so because they had other media interests--they got back into the comics business in 1959 (collectors usually identify this iteration of Fawcett as Hallden-Fawcett). Virtually all their titles were related to Dennis the Menace, but they survived until 1980.

If a Gaines company like All-American/EC had enough diversity in their line, then I think they could have survived the Comics Code. Harvey comics was a much different company in the early '50s. When I was a kid in the '60s, I associated Harvey with harmless funny books for little kids--Richie Rich, Stumbo, Sad Sack, Casper, Hot Stuff. I was surprised to find that Harvey had once been a very different company publishing all sorts of genre comics--everything from super-heroes to horror. By switching to family friendly comics, they not only survived but prospered for many years and even outlasted most other publishers, continuing publication until 2000. In fact, there's a chance that Harvey Comics could rise again in some fashion.

Following this, the Shazam family would fit in perfectly headlining a series of family friendly comics.

[The Darknight Detective]

If Fawcett survives, Captain Marvel remains the highest selling super hero for at least awhile longer.

I don't believe he was at the top of the heap by the '50s, IIRC.

[Dataweaver]

A related scenario: instead of “what if the merger never happened”, how about “what if the dawn of the Silver Age had established its Multiverse based on original publishing houses instead of old vs. new? Picture Earth-One as the home of DC’s original heroes and Earth-Two as the home of the All-American heroes.

[Jim Kelly]

Well, Otto Binder sometimes worked for Julie Schwartz and Mort Weisinger (both friends of his from the Bronx)--and he wrote for a lot of comics (plus writing science fiction with one of his brothers)--but his most significant work in the '40s and early '50s (other than Adam Link) was all the stuff he did with the Marvel Family--including creating Mary Marvel, Uncle Marvel, Tawky Tawny, Mr. Mind and Black Adam. If Fawcett continued--would Otto have created the Legion of Super-Heroes, Supergirl, Krypto, Lucy Lane, Titano the Super-Ape, Jimmy Olsen's signal watch, Brainiac, the bottle city of Kandor, Bizarro World and Space Cabbie?

As well, if Fawcett had continued to publish the Marvels, Kurt Schaffenberger might never have come over to DC and we would never have had some of the greatest artwork DC has published. But I guess we would have had a lot more Kurt Schaffenberge art for the Marvel Family.

[Tony]

I don't believe he was at the top of the heap by the '50s, IIRC.

He wasn't. After a couple years of lesser sales Superman got changed into a more kid friendly book to match Captain Marvel with characters like Lois Lanes niece Susie Tompkins for comic relief and took back the #1 spot. According to the intro in one of the DC Superman Archives.

[The Lucky One]

Since M.C. Gaines went on to publish E.C.--it's probable he would have used All-American for the same purpose. If he had met the same fate--heroically giving his life in a boating accident--then his son Bill would have taken over All-American and used it to publish suspense, science fiction and horror. Mind you he would have also had Wonder Woman, the Justice Society and Mutt and Jeff. And he would have had Sheldon Mayer, Julius Schwartz and Bob Kanigher--if they stayed with the company. So even if A-A had been attacked for their crime and horror comics--there would have been enough other successful titles to keep the company going as a colour comics outfit. And they might never have published MAD magazine.

That's the part that interests me. Presumably if Max Gaines never sells AA, then he never starts Educational Comics. Assuming he still died the same way, then instead of inheriting a company producing educational and Bible comics, Bill Gaines, as you say, inherits one producing superheroes, and just starting to get into teen comedy/romance and westerns. In that case, does he introduce horror comics? I seem to recall Bill decided to give horror comics a try after finding out he and someone else (Al Feldstein?) were both horror fans. But if AA is successful in the way Educational Comics wasn't, and Al Feldstein isn't there, would Bill Gaines have even been willing to take a chance on horror comics? Would he have brought in guys like Jack Davis, Wally Wood, Graham Ingels, etc. to replace AA's staff? A world where Max Gaines never sells AA could well be one where Tales from the Crypt et al. never exists. (Which, continuing the dominoes, is one where Creepy, Eerie, and Vampirella probably don't exist either.)

And, taking another leap of logic, plenty of famous horror writers and directors, from Stephen King to John Carpenter, have emphasized how much they were influenced by reading EC Comics growing up. Obviously there are other sources for horror, but without EC in those formative childhood years, would Stephen King have still turned his pen to horror stories? Probably, but ya never know...

[Jim Kelly]

It was actually Sheldon Moldoff who came up with the horror comics idea in 1948. He prepared a package of two ready to print horror comics and first showed them to Fawcett--but Fawcett wasn't interested. So next he went to Bill Gaines and made a deal with him. Moldoff was supposed to get a share of the royalties if the idea proved successful. But Gaines published his horror comics without Moldoff's involvement and reneged on paying Shelley any royalties. After that Fawcett decided to go ahead with publishing the Moldoff comics--he didn't get royalties from them, but he got steady work. And Shelley Moldoff did horror comics for other publishers, as well.

[LordUltimus]

Well, Otto Binder sometimes worked for Julie Schwartz and Mort Weisinger (both friends of his from the Bronx)--and he wrote for a lot of comics (plus writing science fiction with one of his brothers)--but his most significant work in the '40s and early '50s (other than Adam Link) was all the stuff he did with the Marvel Family--including creating Mary Marvel, Uncle Marvel, Tawky Tawny, Mr. Mind and Black Adam. If Fawcett continued--would Otto have created the Legion of Super-Heroes, Supergirl, Krypto, Lucy Lane, Titano the Super-Ape, Jimmy Olsen's signal watch, Brainiac, the bottle city of Kandor, Bizarro World and Space Cabbie?

I thought Mort Weisinger created all that.

I actually have this idea of Mort coming to AA and working on Wonder Woman, but I don't know if the world is ready for Golden Age Wonder Woman craziness mixed with Silver Age Superman craziness.

[Jim Kelly]

I know that we often give credit to Mort for coming up with the plots, but I think a lot of the ideas had to come from the writers. If you compare what Otto did for DC with what he did for other pulblishers like Fawcett, there's a kind of Otto Binder signature on all of it. Maybe it was the case with Weisinger that he selected writers for specific plots because he knew their strengths and he could get what he wanted from them.

[LordUltimus]

DC doesn't have enough cash for the Fawcett lawsuit without the merger - but a brief check and it looks like even without the lawsuit, Fawcett's parent company would've shut them down when the market fell. So it's basically All American VS DC (inc. Atlas) with Archie and Gold Key quietly reigning elsewhere.