How they come up with the back story of clay in the first place?

[Agent Z]

Yeah, I never liked the whole "born from the souls of women murdered by men" thing...it seemed contrived and it's probably why I was never very sympathetic to it.

And in this day and age I mean the many examples of men and women working together to better things, the many strides feminism has made, to the point where a woman can run for president. Things aren't anywhere near perfect, but it isn't anywhere near as bad as it once was. Only a certain "party" of men and women are,trying to regulate female bodies based on religious beliefs...and even in this they are not succeeding.

And those changes and strides were not made by all women creating an island and living seperate from men. Just like race strides were not made by all blacks' ( who are being killed in the streets in present day america) by separating themselves to a seperate city. Though many often are forced into seperate neighborhoods.

I agree the amazons currently must seem less sympathetic, but I guess for me they never much appealed to me at all to feel much for them in the stories I read. Which of course doesn't mean I don't sympathize or understand how women suffer from patriarchy, but having an island totally seperate from men always seemed like a contrived and unrealistic solution to me... and all of the contrivances presented in their history to support that ideal echoed that unrealistic view...and it never made me connect with them on a gut level.

Contrivances? With the exception of the "born from women who'd been killed by men" everything that happened to the pre-Flashpoint Amazons (rape, enslavement, persecution for not following social norms) is something that has happened to and still does happen to women. The story was following ancient history with mystical and fantastical elements thrown in. Again, why are you more accepting of the Amazons going out of their way to victimize men who have done them no wrong but not them staying on their island were they cannot harm anyone and cannot be harmed? Do you really hate them that much?

Furthermore, a woman running for President in the U.S doesn't mean that sexism has suffered a major defeat anymore than the U.S having a black President means racism is dying out.

Your examples of a small party of men and women is only really true in Western countries. It's an entirely different matter in many parts of the world.

[numberthirty]

I thought Zeus didn't remeber anything from his past life?

Interesting. What makes you think that?

[Agent Z]

Interesting. What makes you think that?

It's what others have said as to why he can be different now. According to them, he has power but doesn't know why or how to use it. If he does remember his past life, then Diana is more the fool for letting him stay on that throne.

[numberthirty]

It's what others have said as to why he can be different now. According to them, he has power but doesn't know why or how to use it. If he does remember his past life, then Diana is more the fool for letting him stay on that throne.

If that is the "them" take, I would point out that -

- Zeke used his power to mollywop Cassandra when she was a threat.
- Zeke used his power to reanimate a person who had been turned to stone.
- Zeke used his power to cause a lightning strike that sends The First Born back into the bowels of the Earth.

That is some beginner's luck. As to "different", huh? Different, how?

[Agent Z]

If that is the "them" take, I would point out that -

- Zeke used his power to mollywop Cassandra when she was a threat.
- Zeke used his power to reanimate a person who had been turned to stone.
- Zeke used his power to cause a lightning strike that sends The First Born back into the bowels of the Earth.

That is some beginner's luck. As to "different", huh? Different, how?

Different as in no longer an abusive, philandering creep.

[numberthirty]

For starters, how would lil' dude philander? He's what, three or four months old when the story ends?

As for the idea that there has been a fundamental change of character, maybe? Seems to me like it was left a question mark intentionally.

[Silvanus]

It's what others have said as to why he can be different now. According to them, he has power but doesn't know why or how to use it. If he does remember his past life, then Diana is more the fool for letting him stay on that throne.

I'm not sure if I'm one of the "others" you mention, but I don't think I've claimed Zeke has absolutely zero knowledge of his prior life as Zeus. As far as I can see, he is a baby with, in many ways, a baby brain; he doesn't know how to talk, walk, etc. He doesn't seem to always know how or why to use his powers, or we would probably have used them at additional critical moments. But he does use them at some critical moments, suggesting some kind of instincts and residual memories. But it appears to be enough of a fresh start that there's hope for Zeke to be raised into a better god; I think that's why Diana's argument--that we've seen what happens when love is denied, so Zeke should be allowed to be raised by the loving Zola--prevails with Athena.

[Vanguard-01]

As for the "Love vs. Lust" aspect. I'm just going to say the art contained in a comic book is not just what is in the art and the words. There is the context it exists in. There is the relationship between different creators runs. "Meta" elements.

The "context" is that Hippolyta: a formerly strong, independent, and intelligent woman decided to jump into bed with a man who is the embodiment of everything that the Amazons are supposed to oppose. There was no relationship building that we witnessed. There was no explanation how a woman like Hippolyta could possibly be attracted to Zeus. And there is damn sure no evidence that Zeus cared anything for Hippolyta or saw her as anything more than one more conquest.

That's what's on the page. There are no hidden messages that only you can decode. I read what you read. I hated what I saw. You, for some reason, liked it. That's the only difference between your reading of the story and mine. Your welcome to your opinion about the scene, but I'll thank you to stop telling me that there's some secret message written in the book that would magically make me love this scene, if only I had eyes to see it.

Hippolyta being reanimated. How it happens. Who does it.

Zeke. And, once again, there's no evidence that Zeke reanimated Hippolyta because he remembered loving her when he was a completely different being. If he did, then he would've reanimated Hippolyta the second he saw her, rather than waiting for a dramatically significant moment to do so.

[Gaelforce]

For starters, how would lil' dude philander? He's what, three or four months old when the story ends?

As for the idea that there has been a fundamental change of character, maybe? Seems to me like it was left a question mark intentionally.

If there isn't going to be a fundamental change and if he does remember everything he did and is simply acting on them with full recollection and intelligence...

Then what was the point of the entire plotline?

All of this, from beginning to end, was so that Zeus could be born anew and have a fresh start on life.

But if he's exactly the same, with all of his past love and memories, all he is is a philandering rapist bastard in the body of an infant, so in 12-14 years or so (a mere eyeblink in the life of a god) he'll be right back where he was before, only younger.

Which again, seems immensely pointless as gods can change form at will. Why not just make himself an infant for Athena to raise? Why go through this elaborate scheme which resulted in multiple dead gods and a lot of destruction, none of which aided him in his plot?

[Darius]

If there isn't going to be a fundamental change and if he does remember everything he did and is simply acting on them with full recollection and intelligence...

Then what was the point of the entire plotline?

All of this, from beginning to end, was so that Zeus could be born anew and have a fresh start on life.

But if he's exactly the same, with all of his past love and memories, all he is is a philandering rapist bastard in the body of an infant, so in 12-14 years or so (a mere eyeblink in the life of a god) he'll be right back where he was before, only younger.

Which again, seems immensely pointless as gods can change form at will. Why not just make himself an infant for Athena to raise? Why go through this elaborate scheme which resulted in multiple dead gods and a lot of destruction, none of which aided him in his plot?

Where did you get all this from? Azzarello's run ended with Zeke as a clueless infant. The little commentary we have on the subject suggests that Zeke is a new man entirely. The whole thing needed to be set up so that Zeus was dead, from the prophesy he had to be gone for the First Born to be freed. This implies that for a time there was no Zeus and the Zeke is the rebirth, not the same entity. There is nothing to indicate that he is "the exact same"

[Agent Z]

Where did you get all this from? Azzarello's run ended with Zeke as a clueless infant. The little commentary we have on the subject suggests that Zeke is a new man entirely. The whole thing needed to be set up so that Zeus was dead, from the prophesy he had to be gone for the First Born to be freed. This implies that for a time there was no Zeus and the Zeke is the rebirth, not the same entity. There is nothing to indicate that he is "the exact same"

Gael was responding to numberthirty's post claiming that Zeus did remember his old life. She wasn't necessarily agreeing with it.

[Gaelforce]

Gael was responding to numberthirty's post claiming that Zeus did remember his old life. She wasn't necessarily agreeing with it.

I was sort of...disagreeing with it?

[Darius]

I was sort of...disagreeing with it?

I see ... I was very confused

[numberthirty]

Where did you get all this from? Azzarello's run ended with Zeke as a clueless infant.

I'm saying we don't ever know this for one hundred percent certain. There are plenty on instances out there where folks claim to have some memories of past lives. Those memories do not make them exactly who they had been.

As for "fundamental" change, that still seems to be up in the air as the story closes.

[numberthirty]

That's what's on the page. There are no hidden messages that only you can decode.

Are you saying you really think the way Marston conducted his love life has nothing to do with much of the way that element is represented in the story? That the story is just "What's on the page" existing in a vacuum?