How they come up with the back story of clay in the first place?

[Hawk80]

The first people in Greek mythology were all made of clay. Being made of clay in Greek myth is not a unique thing.

It's still far far less used than being the Zeus' bastard n° 427. And it's pretty unique in comics.

How many characters are aliens or orphans?

[Silvanus]

The first people in Greek mythology were all made of clay. Being made of clay in Greek [and worldwide] myth is not a unique thing.

Sure, and this is, I'm guessing, is probably because people have tended to imagine our primitive ancestors as closer to the earth than ourselves, and being made of clay is a pretty good metaphor for being closer to the earth. This also means that being made from clay emphasized how different our first ancestors were from ourselves--not how "relateable" they are to us. So, although the clay birth was a very beautiful story and not a problem for me, maybe it's not surprising that there were some for whom it didn't make the character particularly relateable.

[Darius]

Sure, and this is, I'm guessing, is probably because people have tended to imagine our primitive ancestors as closer to the earth than ourselves, and being made of clay is a pretty good metaphor for being closer to the earth. This also means that being made from clay emphasized how different our first ancestors were from ourselves--not how "relateable" they are to us. So, although the clay birth was a very beautiful story and not a problem for me, maybe it's not surprising that there were some for whom it didn't make the character particularly relateable.

Personally I never understood how her clay origin made her somehow unrelatable ... IMO that was due to a series of really bad writers and stories being retold over and over (yeah Kanigher I'm talking about you). Marston's WW touched a cultural and identity nerve that had nothing to do with the circumstances of her birth. I suppose this is why I wasn't really all that bothered by the change to Demi-God ... the story, IMO, was compelling and made her origin (and the lie about clay birth) fraught with strife! I would have been pissed if they had made the change for no reason, but we got 3 years of great comics out of this change so I'm happy with that

Also I'm certain that there is a quote from Marston somewhere where he talks about drawing the inspiration from Pygmalion. I'll have to hunt it down.

[Hawk80]

Personally I never understood how her clay origin made her somehow unrelatable ... IMO that was due to a series of really bad writers and stories being retold over and over (yeah Kanigher I'm talking about you). Marston's WW touched a cultural and identity nerve that had nothing to do with the circumstances of her birth. I suppose this is why I wasn't really all that bothered by the change to Demi-God ... the story, IMO, was compelling and made her origin (and the lie about clay birth) fraught with strife! I would have been pissed if they had made the change for no reason, but we got 3 years of great comics out of this change so I'm happy with that

Also I'm certain that there is a quote from Marston somewhere where he talks about drawing the inspiration from Pygmalion. I'll have to hunt it down.

A story that didn't need that change at all. WW can be the defender of the rightful heir to the throne without being a demigod: gods would fight her like they did and strike Themyscira like they did to punish her insolence. WW would form an alliance of demigods like she did, not because she is related to them, but because that would be the smartest thing to do. She didn't need olympian blood to receive the GoW mantle.
No need at all.

[borntohula]

A story that didn't need that change at all. WW can be the defender of the rightful heir to the throne without being a demigod: gods would fight her like they did and strike Themyscira like they did to punish her insolence. WW would form an alliance of demigods like she did, not because she is related to them, but because that would be the smartest thing to do. She didn't need olympian blood to receive the GoW mantle.
No need at all.

But didn't she need the blood to be able to kill an olympian?

Either way. I find it quite interesting that no one mentions that she now has her mother's blood in her.

The whole run was about mothers (Hippolyta, Zola, Hera, Demeter, the hyena bitch, the amazons) and the only thing that's discussed is Zeus (that'll grow up in a matriarchy, and was himself outed as a mother by Athena).

Why is that?

Is it because Zeus is seen in 3 flashback sequences, and perhaps (his nature) in the first born?

[AmiMizuno]

But didn't she need the blood to be able to kill an olympian?

Either way. I find it quite interesting that no one mentions that she now has her mother's blood in her.

The whole run was about mothers (Hippolyta, Zola, Hera, Demeter, the hyena bitch, the amazons) and the only thing that's discussed is Zeus (that'll grow up in a matriarchy, and was himself outed as a mother by Athena).

Why is that?

Is it because Zeus is seen in 3 flashback sequences, and perhaps (his nature) in the first born?

Also 2009 movie was the first to put the whole her being related to Hippoltya by Blood. Actually all the women acted terrible. The women were not the stars the men were. Zeus and the first born was. For once I would have loved an nice balance of both gender influences. Each mother committed atrocities the only one who changed was Hera. Demeter was cold. Persephone could have been handled better. Demeter was most likely so use to having her daughter gone. I mean Hecate in some versions rescued Persephone and brought her back to Demeter why not Diana. I mean she kinda of did nothing and something to move the story. The women were more of the supporting cast than main even Wondie

[borntohula]

Also 2009 movie was the first to put the whole her being related to Hippoltya by Blood. Actually all the women acted terrible. The women were not the stars the men were. Zeus and the first born was. For once I would have loved an nice balance of both gender influences. Each mother committed atrocities the only one who changed was Hera. Demeter was cold. Persephone could have been handled better. Demeter was most likely so use to having her daughter gone. I mean Hecate in some versions rescued Persephone and brought her back to Demeter why not Diana. I mean she kinda of did nothing and something to move the story. The women were more of the supporting cast than main even Wondie

I never said Azzarello/Chiang was the first ones' making Hipp Diana's mother?

How where Zeus a star? He showed up in 3 flashbacks. Athena was as much involved as he was.

More or less every man was shown as weak. First born basically having a hard-core- on for attention. And while Orion was all balls, it wasn't because he was confident in himself. He was but a dog. And did you not notice how the story says both genders are like vessels? Men for seed, women babies. I suggest you Google "feminism vessels", perhaps you'll see what I mean.
And what bad things did Zola do you say??

But sure. I'd love to see more on Persephone. Perhaps with Hades dead, she could become the new gravitas hell needs?

Either way. My question still stands. Quite interesting how un-interesting the mother aspect seems, but the father (as in absence of fathers, outside Hephaestus) is.

[Agent Z]

I never said Azzarello/Chiang was the first ones' making Hipp Diana's mother?

How where Zeus a star? He showed up in 3 flashbacks. Athena was as much involved as he was.

More or less every man was shown as weak. First born basically having a hard-core- on for attention. And while Orion was all balls, it wasn't because he was confident in himself. He was but a dog. And did you not notice how the story says both genders are like vessels? Men for seed, women babies. I suggest you Google "feminism vessels", perhaps you'll see what I mean.
And what bad things did Zola do you say??

But sure. I'd love to see more on Persephone. Perhaps with Hades dead, she could become the new gravitas hell needs?

Either way. My question still stands. Quite interesting how un-interesting the mother aspect seems, but the father (as in absence of fathers, outside Hephaestus) is.

>Her father's side of the family is the one that gets the most focus.
>Her father's blood is what allows her to claim the new title and enter Olympus.
>Hippolyta is smashed to pieces whereas Zeus gets away with all the crimes he's committed.

[Silvanus]

>Hippolyta is smashed to pieces whereas Zeus gets away with all the crimes he's committed.

In Azzarello's run? Hippolyta isn't smashed to pieces; when we last see her in that run, she's walking and talking (albeit in stone form). Zeus, on the other end, looked like he wouldn't be walking or talking for some time yet. Crawling and bawling, more like.

>Her father's side of the family is the one that gets the most focus.

Yes, and what a nice spotlight it has been, especially for the male Olympians. Of the 8 male Olympians who formerly held thrones, three (Apollo, Hades and Ares) are apparently dead (and one of those has been replaced by a woman), one is an infant, and one has been soundly defeated by his niece. And the king's daughter is now also his father. This all should change the family dynamics in favor of the goddesses.

The mother's line, on the other hand, while not getting as much focus, has been shown the way to reform and greater strength.

>Her father's blood is what allows her to claim the new title and enter Olympus.

But without having been raised by her mother and the whole maternal side of her family, she might have been corrupted by her father's blood as most of her relatives on that side were. And without her mother's side of the family (yes, including her Amazons brothers) to hold Paradise Island, the First Born's army might have proved unstoppable.

[SiegePerilous02]

In Azzarello's run? Hippolyta isn't smashed to pieces; when we last see here in that run, she's walking and talking (albeit in stone form). Zeus, on the other end, looked like he wouldn't be walking or talking for some time yet. Crawling and bawling, more like.

Zeus seems to be using the baby thing to give himself a clean slate, to wash away his past sins and avoid responsibility for them. He knew what he was getting into by becoming a child again, so I don't see it as a form of punishment. Considering he's either directly or indirectly responsible for a lot of the crap that happened in this run, him getting away with it is kind of off putting.

But agreed on the Hippolyta thing. That's all on Finch.

[Silvanus]

But didn't she need the blood to be able to kill an olympian?

I forgot about that! Apollo or Ares does say in 4 that only someone who shared Zeus' blood could have killed him.

[Silvanus]

Zeus seems to be using the baby thing to give himself a clean slate, to wash away his past sins and avoid responsibility for them. He knew what he was getting into by becoming a child again, so I don't see it as a form of punishment. Considering he's either directly or indirectly responsible for a lot of the crap that happened in this run, him getting away with it is kind of off putting.

But agreed on the Hippolyta thing. That's all on Finch.

Zeus seems to be using the baby thing to give himself a clean slate, to wash away his past sins and avoid responsibility for them. He knew what he was getting into by becoming a child again, so I don't see it as a form of punishment. Considering he's either directly or indirectly responsible for a lot of the crap that happened in this run, him getting away with it is kind of off putting.

I can understand finding it off-putting, and I'm not calling it "punishment"; I'm just saying that it changes family dynamics in favor of the maternal. As of the end of Azz's run, Diana's mother, as far as we knew, could talk to her; her father could only listen and get his diaper changed. Yeah, the baby can summon lightning when someone plops him on a throne, but how much control does he have? And how much dignity?

[Darius]

A story that didn't need that change at all. WW can be the defender of the rightful heir to the throne without being a demigod: gods would fight her like they did and strike Themyscira like they did to punish her insolence. WW would form an alliance of demigods like she did, not because she is related to them, but because that would be the smartest thing to do. She didn't need olympian blood to receive the GoW mantle.
No need at all.

All of this is true, in your opinion. Not all of us share that POV. Certainly the story could have been different ... it wasn't, such is life. There was nothing so exceptional about her clay birth (especially post-Crisis) that made it so integral to the character that changing it destroyed the core of WW. You don't like the story, that's cool, but it's not just the demi-god birth that is problematic.

[Hawk80]

All of this is true, in your opinion. Not all of us share that POV. Certainly the story could have been different ... it wasn't, such is life. There was nothing so exceptional about her clay birth (especially post-Crisis) that made it so integral to the character that changing it destroyed the core of WW. You don't like the story, that's cool, but it's not just the demi-god birth that is problematic.

as there isn't nothing special about the demigod origin, but: 1) it's overused and derivative, 2) unneded 3) not the original one.

[Silvanus]

Also 2009 movie was the first to put the whole her being related to Hippoltya by Blood. Actually all the women acted terrible. The women were not the stars the men were... . For once I would have loved an nice balance of both gender influences. Each mother committed atrocities the only one who changed was Hera. Demeter was cold.

What "atrocities," other than Hera's, and those of the Amazons (whom Diana begins to change, starting with Dessa)? "Atrocity" is a strong word. The First Born's actions certainly qualify, and in my opinion, so do Hades' actions towards Diana and Persephone, Zeus ripping the FIrst Born from the arms of his mother, and even Apollo's slaughter of the women he used as oracles. But being "cold" or passive is not an atrocity. Neither is adultery--it's not good, but it's not an "atrocity." And what's Zola's atrociity? Pre-marital sex? Even the hyena mother didn't commit an atrocity; sure, it would have been better for the world had she eaten the First Born instead of raising him, but you can't blame his actions on her.

Zeus and the first born [were the main characters]

Zeus' big heroic action was getting his butt plopped on a chair so he could bring down the lightning. As Zeke, he was more like a magic item than a character. Wonder Woman was the one who kept him alive and got him where he needed to be. Of course she was the hero.

Again, at the beginning of the run, there were 8 male Olympians and 4 women. At the end of the run, there were 5 male Olympians (including one infant), 5 women, and 2 open slots. Even just on the strength of those numbers, it looks like the balance of power has begun to shift towards the women.