How they come up with the back story of clay in the first place?

[AmiMizuno]

I don't think anyone's surprised. But I also don't think that the fact that the idea of clay births is very ancient necessarily means that it's a good fit for a 21st Century feminist icon.

Good Point. I do like the clay. I mean other characters were created in ways they were sexless conception. Yes Diana is a feminism but she not only that. Clay origin connevts to her roots but even than the affair with Zeus is really annoying since it is overused why not someone else?

[Hawk80]

Good Point. I do like the clay. I mean other characters were created in ways they were sexless conception. Yes Diana is a feminism but she not only that. Clay origin connevts to her roots but even than the affair with Zeus is really annoying since it is overused why not someone else?

Or we could just stop trying to fix WW as if she was this broken character desperately in need of a creative saving and just keep the things as they are supposed to be, then just start writing something new that goes beyond the usual "who is WW?".
WW doesn't have a father and doesn't need one to be WW. I't her story, period. She just need to start moving forward, under the pen of a respectful and talented writer.

I wonder what wil happen if tomorrow some people will decide that coming from space is unrelatable, that people these days don't want "space" anymore... Good luck with being a Superman fan when the "best story ever told about him" will become the one where he is a Lex luthor clone...

[wagthedog]

I don't think anyone's surprised. But I also don't think that the fact that the idea of clay births is very ancient necessarily means that it's a good fit for a 21st Century feminist icon.

Why isn't it a good fit?

[Herowatcher]

feminism doesn't mean "totally free of male influence"...this was my problem with Marston and his theories he pushed forward with WW. Instead of equality, he kind of was suggesting superiority.

I mean, look at even what you might be suggesting about her being a more innocent messenger of peace and equality because she's free of any male influence. Why does it have to be one gender over another?

And after 70 or so years, you may do something different from what the creator intended if it's outdated and not complex enough for today's reader.

I think George Perez did a good job updating Martson's origin for Wonder Woman and made it more complex.

[AmiMizuno]

The Clay Origin can be done still without seeming like it's manhating. Perez did it.

[numberthirty]

The Clay Origin can be done still without seeming like it's manhating. Perez did it.

It is certainly possible to do it.

[Silvanus]

The Clay Origin can be done still without seeming like it's manhating. Perez did it.

"Manhating" isn't my criticism of the clay birth, even as Marston wrote it; my criticism is that it idealizes and sentimentalizes the female gender, putting women on a pedestal--the kind of pedestals which feminists today often consider (if I may mix my metaphors) a kind of guilded cage.

I don't think Perez escapes this entirely, though I do agree that his version of the clay birth is more fully developed and thus more beautiful and interesting. It still seems to me that even in Perez version, the goddesses need their champions to be women who (in this life) have not been tainted by male lineage, which means that women are idealized or "put on a pedestal" in a somewhat unhelpful way.

[Redwing]

Or we could just stop trying to fix WW as if she was this broken character desperately in need of a creative saving and just keep the things as they are supposed to be, then just start writing something new that goes beyond the usual "who is WW?".
WW doesn't have a father and doesn't need one to be WW. I't her story, period. She just need to start moving forward, under the pen of a respectful and talented writer.

I wonder what wil happen if tomorrow some people will decide that coming from space is unrelatable, that people these days don't want "space" anymore... Good luck with being a Superman fan when the "best story ever told about him" will become the one where he is a Lex luthor clone...

The relatability of Superman was never that he was from space, but that he was raised in the Midwest by a kindly old couple that could be anyone's parents...heck most would want for their parents. This is the important humanizing factor about that character.

And the fact is, especially since a lot of fans and especially most non-comics fans were not even aware of her clay birth and not having a father and all, it wasn't that imbedded and important to canon. The fact is WW can still be and still is WW without the clay birth and having a father.

[Redwing]

I think George Perez did a good job updating Martson's origin for Wonder Woman and made it more complex.

I agree, though there were still some elements even in that that was less than kind to men or male influence.

[Redwing]

"Manhating" isn't my criticism of the clay birth, even as Marston wrote it; my criticism is that it idealizes and sentimentalizes the female gender, putting women on a pedestal--the kind of pedestals which feminists today often consider (if I may mix my metaphors) a kind of guilded cage.

I'm not sure Perez escapes this entirely, though I do agree that his version fo the clay birth is more fully developed and thus more beautiful and interesting. It still seems to me that the goddesses need their champions to be women who (in this life) have not been tainted by male lineage.

Perez does not escape this entirely, though I agree his version is more clearly developed. To me, it's jus that I've never seen what the clay origin actually adds to the character and motivation or complexity of WW. I get the symbolism and feminist agenda of it all, but it never added anything to the actual character outside of some symbolic "message" that has nothing to do with the actual character.

[Agent Z]

I agree, though there were still some elements even in that that was less than kind to men or male influence.

Like what exactly?

[Silvanus]

Perez does not escape this entirely,....

OH, I agree...by saying, "Im not sure that perez escapes..." I was just being understated. I forgot that understated doesn't really work on the internet. I clarified it. Thanks!

[AmiMizuno]

"Manhating" isn't my criticism of the clay birth, even as Marston wrote it; my criticism is that it idealizes and sentimentalizes the female gender, putting women on a pedestal--the kind of pedestals which feminists today often consider (if I may mix my metaphors) a kind of guilded cage.

I don't think Perez escapes this entirely, though I do agree that his version of the clay birth is more fully developed and thus more beautiful and interesting. It still seems to me that even in Perez version, the goddesses need their champions to be women who (in this life) have not been tainted by male lineage, which means that women are idealized or "put on a pedestal" in a somewhat unhelpful way.

Okay I see what you know. When you think about it the Goddess or goddess chose the amazons to get them back into the world if done right. I mean Steve is the reason. They need to come back to the outside world.

[Hawk80]

The relatability of Superman was never that he was from space, but that he was raised in the Midwest by a kindly old couple that could be anyone's parents...heck most would want for their parents. This is the important humanizing factor about that character.

I agree. His origin is a fundamental part of the character.

And the fact is, especially since a lot of fans and especially most non-comics fans were not even aware of her clay birth and not having a father and all, it wasn't that imbedded and important to canon. The fact is WW can still be and still is WW without the clay birth and having a father.

Double stadards. If superman's origin wasn't well known, then the character wouldn't suffer at all from having his orgin removed, am I right? Are you really based your argument on viewer's ignorance? This just remind me that most people don't know about her powers, then she could as well be a nuclear powered time traveller, right?

[Silvanus]

Double stadards. If superman's origin wasn't well known, then the character wouldn't suffer at all from having his orgin removed, am I right? Are you really based your argument on viewer's ignorance? This just remind me that most people don't know about her powers, then she could as well be a nuclear powered time traveller, right?

If his origin wasn't known but he as a character was received as positively as Wonder Woman during the Marston run (in which her clay birth was just barely mentioned) or on the TV show (when the clay birth wasn't incorporated at all), then that would show that he could work as a character even without that origin being used.

It does not follow that she could as well be a nuclear powered time traveler, because while some of her larger audiences might not have known she was made from clay, they all were shown that she was an Amazon princess and not a nuclear-powered time traveler.