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  1. #76
    Spectacular Member CaptainLiberty76's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Force League Unlimited View Post
    I love this thread, it's my kind of thread
    I'm not kidding, I too love this movie, don't see any reason to nitpick it
    And THAT Ladies and Gentlebeings was the sentiment that I was going for in the thread. No movie is flawless, but MoS was as equally good as StM with a bit a different sensibility. But overall a great Superman movie. Thanks for the sentiment Speed ForceLU.

  2. #77
    Swordsman Supreme R0NIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    You're forgetting a part of the message, which was: "until you're ready to decide wether you want to reveal yourself or not".
    The idea is that Clark showing what he can do will change our perception of our world in such a fundamental way (being a potentially omnipotent godlike being and the proof aliens exist in one big package) that it will be a very heavy responsability for him to bear. So, the implication is that, while it's best for him not to reveal himself while he's still a kid/teenager, someday he will be ready to "stand proud in front of the human race" if he wishes. Heck, the very end of the movie even suggest that Pa Kent always knew/expected his son will choose to reveal himself. It's just that he felt his ten year old kid wasn't ready to make that choice yet.
    It actually doesn't strike me as so unlike usual Pa Kent.
    "Now listen to me, Clark. This great strengh of yours-You've got to hide it from people or they'll be scared of you. But when the proper time comes, you must use it to assist humanity".
    That's not from MOS, but from the very first issue of the Superman comic, and one of the three lines Siegel and Shuster gave Pa and Ma Kent.
    MOS just takes the idea and runs with the whole "hide your strengh" thing, by asking the question "at what cost?".

    "MAYBE"

    In the interest of not derailing the thread I'll respectfully disagree about Pa Kent and leave it at that.

  3. #78
    Spadassin Extraordinaire Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R0NIN View Post

    "MAYBE"

    In the interest of not derailing the thread I'll respectfully disagree about Pa Kent and leave it at that.
    That.....doesn't really contradict my point.
    Pretty much covered it with my whole "runs with the "at what cost" idea" part, actually.
    Hold those chains, Clark Kent
    Bear the weight on your shoulders
    Stand firm. Take the pain.

  4. #79
    Extraordinary Member DebkoX's Avatar
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    This film is awesome.
    That is the land of lost content, I see it shining plain, the happy highways where I went and cannot come again.

  5. #80
    Extraordinary Member Vanguard-01's Avatar
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    I love how people latch onto that "Maybe" line as if Jonathan was REALLY telling Clark that he really SHOULD have let all those kids die.

    If he had said "Yes." That's a different story. Then, yes. Jonathan would be making a definitive statement that he believed that Clark should've let those kids die. But he didn't. He said "Maybe." A statement that by definition speaks of a lack of certainty.

    "Maybe" it would have been better for Clark if he hadn't helped those kids......but the mere fact that Clark didn't hesitate to help them when the bus crashed means that Clark had clearly been taught by Jonathan and Martha to help people when and where he could. Clark didn't just gain his altruism and his desire to help people by osmosis. He learned it from Jonathan.

    Jonathan's "Maybe" was just him expressing his own doubts and fears. EVERYONE has moments where they doubt their own morals and beliefs. That's all that it was. It was HARDLY a defining character moment for Jonathan, or Clark. It was just meant to highlight that Jonathan had a brief moment where he questioned whether he'd been right to raise Clark as a selfless hero.
    Though much is taken, much abides; and though
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,
    One equal temper of heroic hearts,
    Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

    --Lord Alfred Tennyson--

  6. #81
    Extraordinary Member DebkoX's Avatar
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    Jonathan was struggling, its one of those things where this is no right or wrong.
    That is the land of lost content, I see it shining plain, the happy highways where I went and cannot come again.

  7. #82
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    The thing about the ambiguity of "maybe" is that while it doesn't necessarily mean Jonathan meant, "Yes, let them die," it also doesn't necessarily mean he meant "No, don't let them die." They could've picked other ways to express Jonathan's uncertainty while at the same time excluding the idea that Jonathan was open to letting others die.

    FYI, I'm ambivalent on that scene, as well as much of the movie.

  8. #83
    Extraordinary Member Vanguard-01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    The thing about the ambiguity of "maybe" is that while it doesn't necessarily mean Jonathan meant, "Yes, let them die," it also doesn't necessarily mean he meant "No, don't let them die." They could've picked other ways to express Jonathan's uncertainty while at the same time excluding the idea that Jonathan was open to letting others die.

    FYI, I'm ambivalent on that scene, as well as much of the movie.
    I do agree that perhaps they should have done the scene a little different.

    Personally? If I were writing that scene? I would've had it progress exactly as it did in the movie, with one critical difference. I would've had Jonathan say "Maybe........But then you wouldn't have been the son I raised, would you?"

    Something like that.
    Though much is taken, much abides; and though
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,
    One equal temper of heroic hearts,
    Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

    --Lord Alfred Tennyson--

  9. #84
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    Superman letting people die is a core part of the character.

    He lets people die everyday by spending time as Clark Kent instead of Superman.

    He lets people die by not interfering in conflicts on the other side of the world.

    He does this because he believes it's for the greater good.

    This is not unlike the message in this movie.

    Superman is about figuring out the balance between thinking about the greater good and caring about the individual. It's not just one or the other. The Jonathan scene is meant to emphasize that in order to a hero, you have to at least be aware of the other side of the spectrum.

    Superman strikes the right, humane balance. Zod does not.
    Last edited by SmokeMonster; 05-27-2014 at 06:27 PM.

  10. #85
    Extraordinary Member Vanguard-01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeMonster View Post
    Superman letting people die is a core part of the character.

    He lets people die everyday by spending time as Clark Kent instead of Superman.

    He lets people die by not interfering in conflicts on the other side of the world.

    He does this because he believes it's for the greater good.

    This is not unlike the message in this movie.

    Superman is about figuring out the balance between thinking about the greater good and caring about the individual. It's not just one or the other. The Jonathan scene is meant to emphasize that in order to a hero, you have to at least be aware of the other side of the spectrum.

    Superman strikes the right, humane balance. Zod does not.
    That........may........just be the most insightful and poignant analysis of Superman that I've ever seen.

    You make a good point. Superman isn't a god. If he tries too hard to BE a god? He'll either drive himself insane or become the tyrant the DC loves to show him as being these days. Or both.

    Accepting that he can't save everyone and at least being AWARE that he has to allow some deaths really IS the hardest lesson about his powers.
    Though much is taken, much abides; and though
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,
    One equal temper of heroic hearts,
    Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

    --Lord Alfred Tennyson--

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeMonster View Post
    Superman letting people die is a core part of the character.

    He lets people die everyday by spending time as Clark Kent instead of Superman.
    Only in the way we're all letting people die right now by not doing volunteer work...

  12. #87
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    Never mind, just pushing my luck now.
    Last edited by Vidocq; 05-28-2014 at 03:06 PM.

  13. #88
    Nostalgia Fanwanker Pharozonk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DebkoX View Post
    Jonathan was struggling, its one of those things where this is no right or wrong.
    The "right" thing to do is let Clark sacrifice is privacy for the lives of the other children. Clark being selfless is the RIGHT thing to do.
    "In any time, there will always be a need for heroes." - the Time Trapper, Legion of Superheroes #61(1994)

    "What can I say? I guess I outgrew maturity.." - Bob Chipman

  14. #89
    Extraordinary Member Vanguard-01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pharozonk View Post
    The "right" thing to do is let Clark sacrifice is privacy for the lives of the other children. Clark being selfless is the RIGHT thing to do.
    You'll note that Jonathan didn't ACTUALLY contradict this statement?

    He had a moment of doubt where he briefly considered that maybe it would've been better if his son had been more selfish. This is what people do. He didn't ACTUALLY say that Clark beings selfless was the wrong thing to do.
    Though much is taken, much abides; and though
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,
    One equal temper of heroic hearts,
    Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

    --Lord Alfred Tennyson--

  15. #90

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    In that scene, I don't think Jonathon Kent seriously thought Clark should let the bus load of people die. I don't think Clark took him seriously, either. (Good thing.) Whether or not you hate this version of Jonathon Kent, he was willing to die for what he believed in. He was willing to die rather than risk Clark's secret. I, personally, disagreed with the decision, but I didn't feel as offended as some seem to have been.

    There were some perplexing moments. The whole "Superman must kill Zod to protect a family" scene seemed forced to me. I'll admit, I almost laughed when Superman told people in Smallville to get in the buildings because the street wasn't safe. Obviously, the buildings weren't safe, either!

    However, I thought the positive attributes far outweighed the negative. I really liked this movie despite a few nitpcks and the relentless destruction. I liked it because at least this Superman cared and wanted to save people. I was very disappointed in Superman Returns. Some origin stories of the last decade or so, seem to portray Superman as somebody who isn't sure if he wants to be Superman or not. Writers must like to explore this apathy. It figured into Smallville, as well. However, as a reader I don't find it all that appealing. I like a Superman who likes being Superman, and who spends more time doing good than anxiously worrying whether he should have ever come to earth at all.

    I liked all the Kent family scenes (except perhaps the scene where Jonathon dies), and I liked quite a few of the scenes with Superman and Lois Lane.

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