The Man Without Fear: Daredevil Appreciation

[Nanashi]

Is it possible DeKnight could return to DD? Season three isn’t out yet, but so far he’s done the best Marvel Netflix show to date despite how monumentally flawed it is.

https://buff.ly/2Mh7ZW5

[soundsci]

Anyone have thoughts on Ann Nocenti's run? I was thinking of picking up the Epic Collections that contain parts of it.

[responsarbre]

Anyone have thoughts on Ann Nocenti's run? I was thinking of picking up the Epic Collections that contain parts of it.

Very, very good, in my opinion. She had the job of going on Daredevil after Born Again and she turned out one of the best periods on the title ever. Her writing style is idiosyncratic and it doesn't always rub everyone the right way, but I'm a fan. Unfortunately, a lot of her run still isn't collected.

[Jekyll]

Anyone have thoughts on Ann Nocenti's run? I was thinking of picking up the Epic Collections that contain parts of it.

Very underrated! She was my Daredevil writer when I was growing up and she is definitely in my top 5 DD writers.

[Nanashi]

Anyone have thoughts on Ann Nocenti's run? I was thinking of picking up the Epic Collections that contain parts of it.

I never got through a lot of it (so this is probably worth nought ) but what I did get through I didn’t like and it was a very strange run overall. The art by JRJR didn’t help anything, either, IMO.

[macjr33]

Anyone have thoughts on Ann Nocenti's run? I was thinking of picking up the Epic Collections that contain parts of it.

This may not be the most popular opinion on this board; however, I did not like Nocenti's run at all.

For starters, I thought she wrote Matt to be a jerk. For example, how he treated Tyrone was, to me, way too much out of character. I also didn't like that he cheated on Karen so soon after Born Again (even though it's implied that Typhoid Mary has low-level physic abilities).

In addition, while I think comics can be a wonderful avenue for social commentary such as in the case of the X-Men or Danny Rand's relationship with Luke Cage and Misty Knight, I felt Nocenti tried to shoe-horn in way too much and it just didn't fit. Also, didn't like that she took Matt out of Hell's Kitchen for an extended period and the whole Inferno tie was just weird.

Lastly, to echo Nanashi's point, the Romita Jr's art certainly didn't help. There were points where the art, for me, almost made the comic unreadable.

So needless to say I have a low opinion of the run as a whole, the only thing that makes it interesting is Typhoid Mary, but that's not enough to fix all the other mistakes.

[responsarbre]

This may not be the most popular opinion on this board; however, I did not like Nocenti's run at all.

For starters, I thought she wrote Matt to be a jerk. For example, how he treated Tyrone was, to me, way too much out of character. I also didn't like that he cheated on Karen so soon after Born Again (even though it's implied that Typhoid Mary has low-level physic abilities).

In addition, while I think comics can be a wonderful avenue for social commentary such as in the case of the X-Men or Danny Rand's relationship with Luke Cage and Misty Knight, I felt Nocenti tried to shoe-horn in way too much and it just didn't fit. Also, didn't like that she took Matt out of Hell's Kitchen for an extended period and the whole Inferno tie was just weird.

Lastly, to echo Nanashi's point, the Romita Jr's art certainly didn't help. There were points where the art, for me, almost made the comic unreadable.

So needless to say I have a low opinion of the run as a whole, the only thing that makes it interesting is Typhoid Mary, but that's not enough to fix all the other mistakes.

I don't think your opinion is that unpopular -- like I said, Nocenti is divisive as a writer.

But, I think that a lot of things you saw as flaws are what made it work for me. I think Matt does have the capacity to be a jerk, and to be a bit of an ass when it comes to women. These are things that were always sort of part of Matt in the Silver + Bronze ages, but that Miller and later writers started to make an explicit part of the character.

I also think that Nocenti's run made a heck of a lot of sense in the context of following Born Again. Matt was coming out of the lowest part of his life, and had to scrape his way back to normalcy. Sometimes that involves taking one step forward and two steps back.

But I do respect those who don't exactly enjoy her prose or her not-so-subtle social themes. I can see why people don't really get that. I tend to like that DD has had a lot of writers who provoke strong opinions and discussion.

[The Whovian]

Anyone have thoughts on Ann Nocenti's run? I was thinking of picking up the Epic Collections that contain parts of it.

I liked it. It's not as good as Miller, Bru or Bendis' run, but it's still very good.

[phantom1592]

I still haven't read all of it. The parts I did were just... meh. She took him out of new York, had him traveling around the countryside with some inhumans and a weird clone girl and ended up fighting Mephisto, Blackheart and Ultron. When I think of Nocenti I think of the most un-daredevily run daredevil had ever had...

I think that run has been challenged since then... and I suspect the typhoid stuff was more to character, but the issues I had... were not a good showing.

[Nanashi]

This may not be the most popular opinion on this board; however, I did not like Nocenti's run at all.

For starters, I thought she wrote Matt to be a jerk. For example, how he treated Tyrone was, to me, way too much out of character. I also didn't like that he cheated on Karen so soon after Born Again (even though it's implied that Typhoid Mary has low-level physic abilities).

In addition, while I think comics can be a wonderful avenue for social commentary such as in the case of the X-Men or Danny Rand's relationship with Luke Cage and Misty Knight, I felt Nocenti tried to shoe-horn in way too much and it just didn't fit. Also, didn't like that she took Matt out of Hell's Kitchen for an extended period and the whole Inferno tie was just weird.

Lastly, to echo Nanashi's point, the Romita Jr's art certainly didn't help. There were points where the art, for me, almost made the comic unreadable.

So needless to say I have a low opinion of the run as a whole, the only thing that makes it interesting is Typhoid Mary, but that's not enough to fix all the other mistakes.

Ah, yea, I remember that bit with the Tyrone kid. Unlikable characterization of Matt for sure.

[macjr33]

I don't think your opinion is that unpopular -- like I said, Nocenti is divisive as a writer.

But, I think that a lot of things you saw as flaws are what made it work for me. I think Matt does have the capacity to be a jerk, and to be a bit of an ass when it comes to women. These are things that were always sort of part of Matt in the Silver + Bronze ages, but that Miller and later writers started to make an explicit part of the character.

I also think that Nocenti's run made a heck of a lot of sense in the context of following Born Again. Matt was coming out of the lowest part of his life, and had to scrape his way back to normalcy. Sometimes that involves taking one step forward and two steps back.

But I do respect those who don't exactly enjoy her prose or her not-so-subtle social themes. I can see why people don't really get that. I tend to like that DD has had a lot of writers who provoke strong opinions and discussion.

While I agree that in the Matt was shown to be a bit of a chauvinist particularity in the Silver Age (i.e. the infamous slap with Black Widow), for him to be such a jerk towards a child with a disability is just too much. For me, I much preferred how, in the Netflix Defenders series, Matt gave the speech to the kid in the wheelchair. He told him what he needed to hear, but did it with compassion. If anything, what defines Matt is that he is much more forgiving of others and way too critical of himself.

Also, while I understand where you are coming from, my interpretation of the outcomes of Born Again are different. The last panel of Born Again with Matt and Karen walking in the streets is the happiest Matt has ever been in his life. I don't think Matt needed to scrap himself back to normalcy because he realized that he didn't need all the things that the Kingpin took from him. He had Karen and he did his best to protect Hell's Kitchen. That's all that mattered to him.

I also agree though that we as Daredevil fans are a bit spoiled in that we have had so many good writers that to you point can provoke strong opinions and discussions which is always fun to have!

[Nanashi]

While I agree that in the Matt was shown to be a bit of a chauvinist particularity in the Silver Age (i.e. the infamous slap with Black Widow), for him to be such a jerk towards a child with a disability is just too much. For me, I much preferred how, in the Netflix Defenders series, Matt gave the speech to the kid in the wheelchair. He told him what he needed to hear, but did it with compassion. If anything, what defines Matt is that he is much more forgiving of others and way too critical of himself.

Also, while I understand where you are coming from, my interpretation of the outcomes of Born Again are different. The last panel of Born Again with Matt and Karen walking in the streets is the happiest Matt has ever been in his life. I don't think Matt needed to scrap himself back to normalcy because he realized that he didn't need all the things that the Kingpin took from him. He had Karen and he did his best to protect Hell's Kitchen. That's all that mattered to him.

I also agree though that we as Daredevil fans are a bit spoiled in that we have had so many good writers that to you point can provoke strong opinions and discussions which is always fun to have!

Most concurred.

[Nanashi]

Elektra by Bruce Timm

[Jekyll]

We as Daredevil fans are a bit spoiled in that we have had so many good writers that to you point can provoke strong opinions and discussions which is always fun to have!

That we are!!!!!

[Nanashi]

Daredevil vs Gladiator by Simon Bisley