David Goyer calls Marvel’s She-Hulk “a giant green porn star”

[Alvarez]

John Byrne weighed in on this at Byrne Robotics.


JB member said

I would take it all with a pinch of salt, though, as I would guess he wasn't being too serious in his analysis, but it does betray more than a little about his mindset.

To which JB responded.

Thru my career, there have been several occasions when I have "taken it with a pinch of salt" -- ignoring blather rising up from fandom that was patently and provably false* -- and in the long run, this has proven a mistake. I should have gone after those false statements, and gone after them HARD. Once a thought gets lodge into the fan brain, it is almost impossible to shake loose.

Goyer has a much, much taller soapbox than those of us who work in and read the actual comics. His perceptions of the characters find their way into movies seen by MILLIONS.

[crimsonspider89]

I disagree. I was actually one of the few people on here who consistently included Mazin in my criticisms, so I wasn't going easy on him. But the apology seemed sincere. Here's the key part: "On the other hand, using the word “slut” was a bad move." That's taking responsibility, and admitting wrongdoing. A lot of the time, when someone "apologizes," it'll take the form of, "I'm sorry if anyone took offence." It puts the blame on the people doing the objecting. "Hey, what I said was perfectly fine, you're the whine-ass who got pissed off about it!"

Mazin laid out his position, laid out the position (as he understood it, and as fairly as he could) of the people who objected, and admitted that he went about making his point the wrong way. That's a proper way of going about it. He even concedes that he may very well have been wrong about the intentions of the creators.


And now we'll wait and see what approach Goyer takes to it all. If it'll be "I'm sorry about what I said" or "I'm sorry about how people reacted to what I said." If he'll take responsibility for his words, or push that responsibility off on the people angry at him.

He only apologized for using slut but he didn't apologize for the tone he took with what she was. That is just as big of an issue.

[Burning Eyes]

Reply to OP.
Was She-Hulk the lady who regularly broke the fourth wall in her comic?
I seem to recall something along those lines . . .

[Alvarez]

Reply to OP.
Was She-Hulk the lady who regularly broke the fourth wall in her comic?
I seem to recall something along those lines . . .

Yeah, she did that quite a bit.

[Tiamatty]

He only apologized for using slut but he didn't apologize for the tone he took with what she was. That is just as big of an issue.

He did also concede that he may very well have been wrong about the intent behind her creation, and that he may have seen sexism where none exists. But he stands by the larger point he wanted to make - that the sexualization of female characters is wrong. That all-too-often, female characters are created as male fantasies.

He admitted that the word he used was insulting and ran completely against his actual point, and he explained what he actually wanted to get across. For my part, I'm fine with the apology and explanation.

[ShadowDemon]

He made fun of two characters by means of exaggerating a fiction of how these characters might have been conceived in their respective era.
More so, as I interpret it, using satire of today's politically correct crowd by pointing out flaws/sexism in the character, as a means to show how ridiculous said political correctness is.

"A female take of a monstrous character? Let's keep her sexy. She won't even need her clothes to rip off, instead we'll outright put her in bikinis."
"Her powers were given by a MAN. She had to be rescued by a man, the same man hows genius was the result of his own powers and super-heroism, while his female cousin needed a man to save her and grant her the powers."

^that doesn't mean I dislike the character, or hold those as my opinions; they're just my spoof of the modern-day politically correct crowd and how they'd analyze the character.
Goyer said the like when other outlandish and exaggerated things were being said for the sake of being outlandish on a funny podcast.

"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar..."

"Those who make a vocation of hunting witches tend to find them..."

[ShadowDemon]

that the sexualization of female characters is wrong.

No it's not, not any more than the so-called "sexualization" of male characters is. Superheros are just another form of soap opera which are female wish-fulfillment fantasies.

That all-too-often, female characters are created as male fantasies.

And vice versa. Again, so what? People aren't allowed to create and have fantasies?

Our society is becoming a weird cross between Fahrenheit 451 (where all fiction was banned as either offensive or subversive in some form) and Demolition Man (where everyone was so cravenly PC that they had sticks up their sit-upons ten feet long and at least that high.

[ElGuitaristMagnifico]

"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar..."

"Those who make a vocation of hunting witches tend to find them..."

Um, yes, exactly. That's pretty much the point Goyer could be making, as far as I interpreted it.
And I came to this interpretation because he's on a comedic podcast where everyone was being silly and outlandish in front of a live audience.

"I think she-hulk was created as someone who the hulk could bang" [sarcasm] yeah, that seems like he's talking seriously. [/sarcasm]

[dragonmp93]

The result of his own genius, without which there would not even be that gamma bomb. But that's getting nitpicky; I'm sure you understood my point.



Because this isn't a forest fire. In discussions you have to single examples out in order to make your case - to use as an example. Otherwise, if you make generalize statements, you'd get blasted with, "you're just generalizing, what's your source? Show me an example."

Well according to original sin, iron man had something to do that, but I digress........

What i meant with the "forest" is, that is better to not single out the discussion to "a single tree", for instance, about jean grey or black widow; but of course, you need to single out example for the discussion, otherwise you would be making a baseless argument.

[ElGuitaristMagnifico]

Well according to original sin, iron man had something to do that, but I digress........

What i meant with the "forest" is, that is better to not single out the discussion to "a single tree", for instance, about jean grey or black widow; but of course, you need to single out example for the discussion, otherwise you would be making a baseless argument.

Yeah, I considered the OriginalSin spin, but, yeah. haha.

And makes enough sense.

[Joe Acro]

I think everyone's said what they need to regarding Goyer's comments. However, some potentially healthy discussions about the sexuality of female characters and comics-as-escapism are brewing here, so if you want to continue one of those topics in another thread, please feel free.