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  1. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Wish I could say I was interested but the ending of the manga was so monumentally bad I think it ruined my fandom. A rushed ending is one thing, as bad as that was. But it screwed up basic characterizations and hero's journeys that it just destroyed the whole experience.
    I'm intrigued.

    Which basic characterizations do you feel were ruined, I know what parts of the fandom think but I'm genuinely curious about your opinion.

    And how do you think was Ichigo's hero journey ruined? This one is new-ish to me.

  2. #317
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    Well, maybe I go too far in saying that the Hero's Journey in its literal definition was ruined. But I do think it really didn't have a proper ending. With Yhwach's defeat being so rushed, so inconsequential, and so unearned, it just didn't feel like Ichigo won anything. It didn't come close to what he accomplished in defeating Aizen, and being the ending of the series, it should have surpassed that feat. Also, Rukia having no role whatsoever in the defeat of the final*big bad was also unforgivable. She was a main character right alongside Ichigo and deserved that. Instead was relegated to nearly D-list status for the entirety of the final arc. She ended up being hurt by the ending far more than Ichigo even if Ichigo didn't come out looking too great. Her and Ichigo's friendship which was a driving force of the manga was completely abandoned after the Fullbringer arc, and honestly was at the very least being neglected far before. Its almost as if somewhere down the line Kubo sought out to intentionally marginalize and destroy it. Hell, even in this novel its said that Rukia's child is named in a sense of Orihime. HUH? They're friends but their relationship was never that deep, and all of a sudden its more meaningful than her bond with Ichigo? I thought at the very least Ichika was named for Ichigo, now that's been taken away. Just none of it makes any sense.

    As for basic characterizations ruined, Chad comes to mind. A boxer? Its like Kubo just forgot the character he created. A man who was taught by the person he loved most in the world to never fight outside of defense becoming a prizefighter makes no sense. There's nothing inherently wrong with being a boxer in general, but its wrong for Chad because it doesn't fit his character arc. His ultimate occupation should have been something entirely removed from fighting altogether. Revealing Ichigo married Inoue when never in the actual materials did he show any romantic interest in her, leaving it all to the imagination as having grown off-panel, was also dissatisfiying. He made it clear Orihime was in love with him, but never even the slightest interest from Ichigo's end. That was also unearned in the written materials. If you wanted that to be your endgame fine, but at least build it or hint at it from both sides. That much can at least be said for Rukia and Renji. I mean damn, when a manga like Fairy Tail ends and Natsu ends up with Lucy, and Gray ends up with Juvia, and Erza ends up with Jellal, and Gajeel ends up with Levy, etc, at least that will all be earned within what's actually been written.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 12-28-2016 at 03:03 PM.
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  3. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Well, maybe I go too far in saying that the Hero's Journey in its literal definition was ruined. But I do think it really didn't have a proper ending. With Yhwach's defeat being so rushed, so inconsequential, and so unearned, it just didn't feel like Ichigo won anything. It didn't come close to what he accomplished in defeating Aizen, and being the ending of the series, it should have surpassed that feat.
    True. Kubo did the best he could, and I personally enjoyed what fighting we did get between Ichigo and Yhwach. But the series getting cancelled in the middle of the big final fight just made it impossible to get any kind of satisfaction. But even without the cancellation Kubo had kinda failed in showing just how much stronger Ichigo was compared to before. If he'd spent less time on the mini-boss fights and killed more of his good guys we might've gotten something more satisfying for the final showdown. Sadly, that's not what happened. So I get where you're coming from.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Also, Rukia having no role whatsoever in the defeat of the final*big bad was also unforgivable. She was a main character right alongside Ichigo and deserved that. Instead was relegated to nearly D-list status for the entirety of the final arc. She ended up being hurt by the ending far more than Ichigo even if Ichigo didn't come out looking too great.
    While I get the disappointment of Rukia being so uninvolved in the final pieces of the action, though that was clearly not the intention with how Kubo was building up to it. I don't think that Rukia comes off any bad in the ending. In a way, she's got the most complete character arc when her strength's been acknowledge and she's promoted to captain. Kubo spent the penultimate chapter building up to that. So I'd say she comes off looking pretty good. And to be fair, everybody was kinda relegated to B-list status in the arc simply because so many people had to share the screen time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Her and Ichigo's friendship which was a driving force of the manga was completely abandoned after the Fullbringer arc, and honestly was at the very least being neglected far before. Its almost as if somewhere down the line Kubo sought out to intentionally marginalize and destroy it. Hell, even in this novel its said that Rukia's child is named in a sense of Orihime. HUH? They're friends but their relationship was never that deep, and all of a sudden its more meaningful than her bond with Ichigo? I thought at the very least Ichika was named for Ichigo, now that's been taken away. Just none of it makes any sense.
    I'd say that their friendship was the driving force of the Soul Society arc only. After that arc it's still present and meaningful, but there are other aspects that drive the story. Like Orihime taking more of a center stage as her character development grows parallell to Aizen taking an interest in her powers, and Ichigo trying to master his own abilities while being pulled into the war. And for the final arc I do think that Kubo focused on putting Rukia together with Renji more and Ichigo together with Orihime more to prepare people for the final couples, but we'll get to that in a bit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    As for basic characterizations ruined, Chad comes to mind. A boxer? Its like Kubo just forgot the character he created. A man who was taught by the person he loved most in the world to never fight outside of defense becoming a prizefighter makes no sense. There's nothing inherently wrong with being a boxer in general, but its wrong for Chad because it doesn't fit his character arc. His ultimate occupation should have been something entirely removed from fighting altogether.
    Yah. This one is the biggest problem for me in terms of character development. Without any context whatsoever it is practically impossible to defend Chad becoming a boxer. One can assume that he gives his prize money to an orphanage or something. But we're not told anything, and we're only left with speculations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Revealing Ichigo married Inoue when never in the actual materials did he show any romantic interest in her, leaving it all to the imagination as having grown off-panel, was also dissatisfiying. He made it clear Orihime was in love with him, but never even the slightest interest from Ichigo's end. That was also unearned in the written materials. If you wanted that to be your endgame fine, but at least build it or hint at it from both sides.
    Now here's where I'll disagree strongly with you. The common idea is that Ichigo never displays any romantic interest in Orihime throughout the entire series, and I can get where that line of thinking comes from. Unlike Orihime, whose feelings are on full display for the reader, the hints for Ichigo's affection are more subtle. At least if you're only reading the series in proper order and not looking for them. But there are plenty of hints that he's got a special kind of feelings for Orihime compared to his other friends.

    In third chapter he says she's just the friend of a friend while also showing that he pays special attention to her (he notices her injuries and brings them to attention, gets upset for her, knows that she gets into accidents everyday and says he gets exhausted just from watching and worrying about her). Then he offers to walk her home. That's quite a bit of special attention for "a friend of a friend".

    They have plenty of cute little moments where their interaction is just absolutely precious, especially in the last 15 or so many chapters when Orihime becomes Ichigo's partner in battle. Hell in that battle we get to see that their understanding of each other is so deep that they only need to look into each others eyes to get a sense of what they're thinking, and Ichigo takes time during the middle of the fight against a guy who's basically God to reassure and comfort Orihime when she sees his new Hollow-esque form. He remembered her distress made sure that he's not causing her any emotional discomfort. That is just amazingly sweet.

    The biggest evidence is probably that he makes a vow to protect her. Like, we all know he wants to protect and save as many people as he possibly can. But Orihime is the only one whom he goes up to (or rather, Rukia drags him to Orihime) and he makes a singular, specific promise to Orihime that he'll protect her. This is after Ulquiorra and Yammy first showed up and kicked everybody around. Chad and Tatsuki were also seriously injured that time, but it's Orihime and her plight that gets the most attention from Ichigo. Then she gets kidnapped and he becomes kinda depressed. Compare that to when Rukia was kidnapped, that time he was confused, frustrated and hesitant (until Orihime set him straight with a pep talk that showed how much she understands him). When Orihime gets kidnapped Ichigo is moping around, looking sad and straight up depressed until he decides to just go and save her.

    Other characters notice the special attention and affection Ichigo has for Orihime too. Ulquiorra and Ginjo mention that Ichigo becomes stronger in battle when she's around, Urahara uses Ichigo's attraction to her for shits and giggles, Rangiku mentions how important she is to him, tiny Nel notices how strongly he's been reacting because of her, adn Rukia is basically the OG Ichihime shipper with how she constantly smiles at the two of them being dorks for each other and, again, drags him him to Orihime so that they can have some time alone to discuss recent events and work through their issues. Renji wasn't the first one that noticed Ichigo's feelings, he just gave the most blunt advice about it.

    Then we have big moments like Ichigo getting one of his most massive rage outs when Ulquiorra mentions that he kidnapped Orihime. That triggers Ichigo so much that he straight up forgets that he sensed that Rukia was bleeding to death and really needed help. Who else would he react like that for? And when Orihime asks him not to get hurt anymore during the Grimmjow fight she's showing that she's dispelled any doubts and fears she's had about why he's fighting and his hollow powers. That alone is enough for him to turn the entire fight around from an uphill struggle to kicking Grimmjow's ass. Hell, when Ichigo is dead and is turned into an monster of death and destruction by Zangetsu desperately trying to keep him alive the only part of his humanity that's still around is his promise and desire to protect Orihime. Everybody else gets stomped into the ground or stabbed.

    Point is that contrary to popular belief, there's plenty of indications that Ichigo has special feelings for Orihime. It did not come out of nowhere. And I for one am genuinely impressed with how Kubo set it up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    That much can at least be said for Rukia and Renji. I mean damn, when a manga like Fairy Tail ends and Natsu ends up with Lucy, and Gray ends up with Juvia, and Erza ends up with Jellal, and Gajeel ends up with Levy, etc, at least that will all be earned within what's actually been written.
    Well, those are all super obvious (though I'd still prefer if Natsu ends up with Lisanna but that's not gonna happen) and varying degrees of well written. Ichigo getting together with Orihime was build up in a more subtle way, but it's still clearly there (tons of readers did pick up on it as well), and I just enjoy how that played out more.

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