Jean Grey: LGBT ALLY or ENEMY?

[themasething]

Actually curious as to why other GLBT members would think of her as 'Enemy'

A lot of people believe that she removed Bobby's choice to choose to accept it on his own (which, regardless of his future self, is completely possible. All the "Young X-Men characters have changed a lot over their time with their older selves). When someone else "outs" a gay person, it can be extremely damaging to them. But we're talking Young Jean "I'll do whatever I want" Grey here, she doesn't seem to give a **** about the term "privacy" since she has been developing her psychic powers.

[Herowatcher]

The way she did it...I wouldn't call her a friend.
Perhaps she's manipulating his thoughts.

[Jean Grey]

A lot of people believe that she removed Bobby's choice to choose to accept it on his own (which, regardless of his future self, is completely possible. All the "Young X-Men characters have changed a lot over their time with their older selves). When someone else "outs" a gay person, it can be extremely damaging to them. But we're talking Young Jean "I'll do whatever I want" Grey here, she doesn't seem to give a **** about the term "privacy" since she has been developing her psychic powers.

Not really wondering about people, but what other Gay/Lesbian/Bi/Transgender individuals think.

I can tell you that I had a perfect coming out, where I was basically begging for my best friend to say it so I wouldn't have to and yet she didn't and simply stated that when I was ready I could always count on her.

That's a far cry from the experiences some of my friends had, some even outed by their own parents. So that's why I wonder why they would think of Jean as an Enemy in this situation. I think we can all agree in that the manner in which she did this was wrong, and inappropriate. But was it bad? done with malice? I personally don't think so. This is a 16 year old girl with no understanding of "Gay etiquette" and that hasn't had a single day off. At the end, Iceman put it best 'noisy bitch', and yet still held her tight in embrace because it made him feel a bit more safe. Because the fact that 1 person now knows, surely means the world to him even if it came out in a manner such as this.

[SolarRadical]

Not really wondering about people, but what other Gay/Lesbian/Bi/Transgender individuals think.

I can tell you that I had a perfect coming out, where I was basically begging for my best friend to say it so I wouldn't have to and yet she didn't and simply stated that when I was ready I could always count on her.

That's a far cry from the experiences some of my friends had, some even outed by their own parents. So that's why I wonder why they would think of Jean as an Enemy in this situation. I think we can all agree in that the manner in which she did this was wrong, and inappropriate. But was it bad? done with malice? I personally don't think so. This is a 16 year old girl with no understanding of "Gay etiquette" and that hasn't had a single day off. At the end, Iceman put it best 'noisy bitch', and yet still held her tight in embrace because it made him feel a bit more safe. Because the fact that 1 person now knows, surely means the world to him even if it came out in a manner such as this.

because it reads as Jean manipulating his thought or a very creepy invasion of privacy without care, and the only reason they hugged at the end is because the writer willed it. and it has nothing to do with real life but knowing how to tell a story which Bendis failed and it just looks lazy.

[Jean Grey]

because it reads as Jean manipulating his thought or a very creepy invasion of privacy without care, and the only reason they hugged at the end is because the writer willed it. and it has nothing to do with real life but knowing how to tell a story which Bendis failed and it just looks lazy.

No. It has everything to do with real life, because that's how coming out usually plays out. It's a huge life altering moment.

There is no defending Jean's actions , but her intentions are definitely not coming from a place of malice or ill intentions. Just the implementation fails massively.

If you think that this has no parallels to real life, or that the intention of the writer was to manipulate someone 'into being gay', then that's just your self-projection on the subject.

[Flaneur]

No. It has everything to do with real life, because that's how coming out usually plays out. It's a huge life altering moment.

There is no defending Jean's actions , but her intentions are definitely not coming from a place of malice or ill intentions. Just the implementation fails massively.

If you think that this has no parallels to real life, or that the intention of the writer was to manipulate someone 'into being gay', then that's just your self-projection on the subject.

Yeah, I'd agree with this.

Jean's actions were invasive, patronising, not strategic, heaps not defensible etc. They weren't malicious in intent, though, and I think even beyond trying to resolve an emotional dilemma for her friend there was also challenging Bobby's objectification of women which was slightly awks whatever his sexuality.

[SolarRadical]

No. It has everything to do with real life, because that's how coming out usually plays out. It's a huge life altering moment.

There is no defending Jean's actions , but her intentions are definitely not coming from a place of malice or ill intentions. Just the implementation fails massively.

If you think that this has no parallels to real life, or that the intention of the writer was to manipulate someone 'into being gay', then that's just your self-projection on the subject.

I think a badly explained the real life thing, when your telling a story you obviously need to suspend disbelief and you do that through good execution the fact that this comes up out of nowhere on a character that has previously been shown straight, looks like a publicity stunt, lazy and lacks tact. and the fact Bendis did this pretty much right before he leaves also makes it look shallow too.

[ZephyrSurf]

Closer than you think when you take both conversation and the art into account


I'll agree I didn't go line for line and possibly extended it a little. But the point is still valid.


Oh no! I didn't do this whole situation point for point. It invalidates nothing.


The guy throws up a WALL OF ICE! There's your "super outlash" from Bobby.


Funny, because they hug and it's played off as "everything is fine now". Sure in future issues we might see this crop up, but it's Bendis, he doesn't do negative side effects over a long term. This whole thing is maybe 2 issues before full acceptance.

What I wrote was a simplistic version of a bullying scenario. If you want a full line for line recap, then read the book several times over.

Dude there's really no need for multiquotes of the same post. People can infer what parts your referring to.

Combining the art and words doesn't change that you presented their dialogue as way more volatile than it was.

The point isn't valid anymore if you exaggerate it to an exceptional degree, it loses meaning because you turn a molehile into a mountain.

I'd say it invalidates a fair deal since your parody ignoring it completely turns the entire affair into a back and forth until he abruptly accepts it, which isn't what happened.


Maybe we have different definitions of super outlashes, cause given things x-men have done, things bobby has done, an ice wall to try and end the conversation doesn't scream super outlash. and it certainly doesn't scream it in the way you did unless ice wall is bobby's way of saying he's very gay, in which case...

No they didn't. Jean said from her perspective that it doesn't matter and that she believes it's better for him now than before. Bobby still doesn't know what to do with it, or does he want to publicly come out just yet, cause he still wants to work it out.

I know how bendis does things, but we're not talking about bendis and meta discussions. But if you want to go with that, we've got interviews saying that here's a desire to deal with this in regards to adult bobby as well. And bendis has no series with Adult iceman and his own run is ending.

As for the bullying point. Dude, really? That's the angle you wanna push for? I'm all for calling Jean, nosy, manipulative, invasive, and pushy, but what she did in that instance wasn't bullying, save maybe the part with Iceman's consideration of him being bi.

Actually curious as to why other GLBT members would think of her as 'Enemy'

Closest point would be her dismissal of bisexuals. Which is more specifically a B issue than a LGT or Q issue and one part that I do take a fair bit of offense to. But nothing she's done I'd explicitely mark her as an enemy of the community as a whole since clearly her intent was to help bobby, even if she did it in an incredibly brash, invasive and awkward way.

But then again, I don't classify most people as one or the other. I consider LGBTQ allies one end of the spectrum and enemies the other.

Allies in my view are active advocates, Enemies are active dissidents.

Jean, like most most heroes, I wouldn't say falls into either category. As it's more about it being bobby than it's about it being bobby being gay.

[Custodes]

New "young" Jean just has a big mouth with everyone. She has royally pissed off others before, nosing around where she doesn't belong. Nothing new really. Classic Jean (deceased.....if anyone in a comic is ever deceased) would not have done that. Professor X taught her better. Of course he was really fooling Classic Jean and grabbing thoughts but, keeping closed mouthed about it. Gain more power that way.

[ButterRum]

Maybe Jeen is the gay one and she is projecting her own issues on other people. Maybe her own repressed doubts was what drove her older one to become Dark Phoenix.
Poor Cyke and Logan.

Puh-lease. Cyke and Logan's feelings are irrelevant. Poor Jean if that's the the truth.

[PretenderNX01]

An enemy of LGBT people is someone out to hurt us.

She's clumsy, invasive and pushy but she didn't want to hurt Bobby.

[Kieran_Frost]

An enemy of LGBT people is someone out to hurt us.

She's clumsy, invasive and pushy but she didn't want to hurt Bobby.

THIS! Jean is 100% an ally. She was helping a friend come out, and gave him space away from others to do it, and isn't pressuring him to tell others, and says he chooses when he's ready to tell others. Ally, 100%.

Also, LOVE open polls. So good to see who votes for what.

[TheORKINMan]

By that same logic, it's just as likely someone psychically made present-Bobby not as admittedly into guys.

That's a dark road to go down in either direction and I seriously doubt they're going to.

I agree it's a dark road but if there's a writer that doesn't mind doing controversial stuff that pisses people off its Bendis. Honestly I think Jean mind raping him to out him against his will is already two steps down that road. I didn't find that scene sweet at all. Generally when Professor X reads innocent people's minds against their will it's regarded as an immoral act.

[t hedge coke]

I agree it's a dark road but if there's a writer that doesn't mind doing controversial stuff that pisses people off its Bendis. Honestly I think Jean mind raping him to out him against his will is already two steps down that road. I didn't find that scene sweet at all. Generally when Professor X reads innocent people's minds against their will it's regarded as an immoral act.

Professor X is a jerk.

And, he's casually picked up thoughts without being a villain rapist about it, since his first appearances.

[ButterRum]

An enemy of LGBT people is someone out to hurt us.

She's clumsy, invasive and pushy but she didn't want to hurt Bobby.

The Republicans say they are tolerant and don't intend to hurt people, but they are against gay marriage and hurt the LGBT community.