What's the worst retcon you've read?

[t hedge coke]

1. The Crossing. Marvel idiotic idea of making Iron man a spy for kang? Who thought that was a good idea?
2. Nick Fury/Original Sin. BS. I can't say enough that insult to years of fans this book. Marvel been trying to get rid of the old Fury for years.
3. SHIELD/Hydra pretty much being the same thing. One thing to use shield as excuse of the week but this was another thing. Didn't like it any better Winter Soldier.
4. Bucky/Winter Soldier. This one going to get me hated but I was never a fan of bringing bucky and retcon that he was saved by russia was stupid. On top marvel writers tried to come up with ways to say why no one ran into him MU. At least that part was more plausible in MCU.
5. Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver not being magneto's kids.
6. Gwen Stacy/Green Goblin and their twins. Oh god ruined one of tragic moments in comics making about Norman jilted lover. Congrats JMS one of the reasons your run was stupid.
7. Secret Invasion. From spider-woman being the skrull queen the whole time to mess of retcons or not retcons. Seriously not jumping on returning the classic beast? "Oh sorry more fans like classic but I like grant morrisons version better" Paraphrasing but Bendis said something similar post SI.
8. Xavier's twin sister. "Oh luck we got sister never appeared and never been mentioned. Never been hinted but be cool if she is evil." DUMB!
9. One more day. Yeah. The day I stopped reading spider-man books. From not letting aunt may die to lame fact peter couldn't find anyone to get the bullet out? There is plot convenience then there is bs.

None of these are really retcons, except maybe Pietro and Wanda not being Magneto's kids/secret Inhumans. That's a retcon. They rest are reveals. They didn't actively change anything we saw in the past. Beast looking like a cat or Beast having a pushed in face with little fangs and points on his head isn't a retcon. Bucky being alive isn't a retcon. Xavier having a monster that became conscious and copied him in the womb as a kind of sister isn't a retcon. No continuity was retroactively changed, there's simply information we weren't privy to or a character had a physical transformation in the comics.

[Of Atlantis]

Another retcon that I hated was the shoe-horning of the Iron Fist mythos into the Phoenix Force via that red head, Fungi. It was a lame way to try and give the Avengers some sort of leg into the Phoenix story.

Almost forgot about this. Probably selective memory because it was so bad.

Was not a fan of Bendis messing with Iron Fist mythos. I knew he would leave it unfinished and non-sensical and of courses he did.

[Agent Z]

None of these are really retcons, except maybe Pietro and Wanda not being Magneto's kids/secret Inhumans. That's a retcon. They rest are reveals. They didn't actively change anything we saw in the past. Beast looking like a cat or Beast having a pushed in face with little fangs and points on his head isn't a retcon. Bucky being alive isn't a retcon. Xavier having a monster that became conscious and copied him in the womb as a kind of sister isn't a retcon. No continuity was retroactively changed, there's simply information we weren't privy to or a character had a physical transformation in the comics.

How is Bucky being alive not a retcon? Up until this story it was decided he was dead. A retcon is the alteration of previously established facts in the continuity of a fictional work. That's what happened in most of these.

[t hedge coke]

How is Bucky being alive not a retcon? Up until this story it was decided he was dead. A retcon is the alteration of previously established facts in the continuity of a fictional work. That's what happened in most of these.

Because seeing someone in a land of the dead is never confirmation in the Marvel Universe, that they're dead. That's long established. Due to bad continuity? Yes. But, still established.

We don't see him "die," we don't have a doctor's confirmation, there was no body.

There was no body.

Retcons, technically, need to retroactively change something on-panel, not just reveal something is different than we thought it was. Right?

Maybe I'm being too technical/picky, but there's no way to make Beast changing shape a retcon, or Cassie Nova, SHIELD/Hydra (which is just super-muddled, anyway, at least in comics - we may never know "the truth").

[Ed Love]

Because seeing someone in a land of the dead is never confirmation in the Marvel Universe, that they're dead. That's long established. Due to bad continuity? Yes. But, still established.

We don't see him "die," we don't have a doctor's confirmation, there was no body.

There was no body.

Retcons, technically, need to retroactively change something on-panel, not just reveal something is different than we thought it was. Right?

Maybe I'm being too technical/picky, but there's no way to make Beast changing shape a retcon, or Cassie Nova, SHIELD/Hydra (which is just super-muddled, anyway, at least in comics - we may never know "the truth").

yeah, the actual retcon would be that Bucky was an of-age soldier trained to be an assassin and foisted on Captain America as a sidekick by the US Government in order to do the nasty things that Captain America could not be seen doing. And, Steve willingly going along with it. Fundamentally changing the characters and their relationship as set out by Simon & Kirby.

[t hedge coke]

yeah, the actual retcon would be that Bucky was an of-age soldier trained to be an assassin and foisted on Captain America as a sidekick by the US Government in order to do the nasty things that Captain America could not be seen doing. And, Steve willingly going along with it. Fundamentally changing the characters and their relationship as set out by Simon & Kirby.

Okeh, yeah. That's a retcon.

[Of Atlantis]

yeah, the actual retcon would be that Bucky was an of-age soldier trained to be an assassin and foisted on Captain America as a sidekick by the US Government in order to do the nasty things that Captain America could not be seen doing. And, Steve willingly going along with it. Fundamentally changing the characters and their relationship as set out by Simon & Kirby.

I don't feel like it changed the relationship between them all that much. If anything, it felt more down to earth. Bucky was a tommy gun-toting teenager in the war, of course he had to be well trained to be Cap's partner. I doubt anyone can believe every shot he fired in front of Cap was non-fatal. Besides, we got some hilarious reactions of Bucky reading those old depiction of him.

Besides, Stan Lee was the one to retcon Bucky's death off the drone in Avengers #4 when Cap resurfaced in ice. In fact, that whole part of Captain America's origin was a retcon. He initially survived the war, as did Bucky, and fought communism in the 50's. Those stories were eventually retconned as well into the 50's Cap and Bucky.

[Supermutant2099]

Because seeing someone in a land of the dead is never confirmation in the Marvel Universe, that they're dead. That's long established. Due to bad continuity? Yes. But, still established.

We don't see him "die," we don't have a doctor's confirmation, there was no body.

There was no body.

Retcons, technically, need to retroactively change something on-panel, not just reveal something is different than we thought it was. Right?

Maybe I'm being too technical/picky, but there's no way to make Beast changing shape a retcon, or Cassie Nova, SHIELD/Hydra (which is just super-muddled, anyway, at least in comics - we may never know "the truth").

I never said beast was one. I meant that a missed chance for a retcon. If you look at the quote after saying. Sorry for not making it clearer.

[Ed Love]

I don't feel like it changed the relationship between them all that much. If anything, it felt more down to earth. Bucky was a tommy gun-toting teenager in the war, of course he had to be well trained to be Cap's partner. I doubt anyone can believe every shot he fired in front of Cap was non-fatal. Besides, we got some hilarious reactions of Bucky reading those old depiction of him.

Besides, Stan Lee was the one to retcon Bucky's death off the drone in Avengers #4 when Cap resurfaced in ice. In fact, that whole part of Captain America's origin was a retcon. He initially survived the war, as did Bucky, and fought communism in the 50's. Those stories were eventually retconned as well into the 50's Cap and Bucky.

That's a bit of revisionist history right there. Bucky was NOT a tommy-gun toting teen-ager. The covers are not strictly continuity (otherwise, there are a lot of heroes who could grow to giant sizes) and inside the stories he occasionally would pick up a gun or grenade and use it in the heat of battle to save Allied lives. That's a big difference than him crawling behind a guard and slitting his neck with a throat. And, the fact that Captain America was ok with him doing it so that he didn't have to do it. Whereas before, Cap took a kid under his wing and trained him himself in judo and fighting techniques as opposed to Bucky being an adult already trained to be an assassin and Cap being told by the government this is the way it's going to be, yeah, I see a big difference. And, it's a big difference in how Bucky had traditionally been portrayed in modern titles like The Invaders. He more often did not use lethal force than he did. Now, every flashback seems to have to include him killing someone. The retcon takes those occasional occurrences and makes it his default state.

Don't recall anyone saying that the scene of Bucky's death was not a retcon. In fairness, the 1950s stories don't make a lot of internal sense, that acknowledges Bucky was a kid sidekick in 1940s and years later, he is still a kid? Of course, there is a significant difference too. There wasn't decades of worth of stories built around Captain America and Bucky's surviving and operating after the War, and the concept of continuity and shared-universe as Stan Lee was doing it was different and new. And, there was a disconnect between FF#1 and the old Atlas/Timely Comics. Unlike DC, Marvel had not been continuously publishing adventures starring any of their superheroes. Continuity begins with FF#1 and they could pick and choose which of those old comics stories and characters that would fit. They could just as easily done a Flash, creating a new superhero who was inspired in his identity by some old comics featuring a "fictional" superhero called Captain America. So, it's hardly the same sense of scale as changing Buicky's origin and death which had been part of established lore and referenced untold times in the past 40 years. He was dead far longer than he could have been assumed to have still been around when Stan Lee wrote his death scene.

[theshow07]

Parallels Lives recton having mary jane know that peter was spider-man before they even met really mess up their relationship and jms run of spider-man

[616MarvelYear is LeapYear]

I don't feel like it changed the relationship between them all that much. If anything, it felt more down to earth. Bucky was a tommy gun-toting teenager in the war, of course he had to be well trained to be Cap's partner. I doubt anyone can believe every shot he fired in front of Cap was non-fatal. Besides, we got some hilarious reactions of Bucky reading those old depiction of him.

Besides, Stan Lee was the one to retcon Bucky's death off the drone in Avengers #4 when Cap resurfaced in ice. In fact, that whole part of Captain America's origin was a retcon. He initially survived the war, as did Bucky, and fought communism in the 50's. Those stories were eventually retconned as well into the 50's Cap and Bucky.

Glad that 616 William Burnside has died because of Secret Wars. Mercifully 616 Jack Monroe was already disposed of Go Marvel Comics!

[Of Atlantis]

That's a bit of revisionist history right there. Bucky was NOT a tommy-gun toting teen-ager. The covers are not strictly continuity (otherwise, there are a lot of heroes who could grow to giant sizes) and inside the stories he occasionally would pick up a gun or grenade and use it in the heat of battle to save Allied lives. That's a big difference than him crawling behind a guard and slitting his neck with a throat. And, the fact that Captain America was ok with him doing it so that he didn't have to do it. Whereas before, Cap took a kid under his wing and trained him himself in judo and fighting techniques as opposed to Bucky being an adult already trained to be an assassin and Cap being told by the government this is the way it's going to be, yeah, I see a big difference. And, it's a big difference in how Bucky had traditionally been portrayed in modern titles like The Invaders. He more often did not use lethal force than he did. Now, every flashback seems to have to include him killing someone. The retcon takes those occasional occurrences and makes it his default state.

I'll admit many current portrayals of Bucky back in WW2 do depict him as a lot more lethal. I don't think it takes away the fact Steve also served as a mentor to Bucky as well, though I can acknowledge the case you're making in saying it's focused on a lot less. Regardless, I view their relationship in both cases to emphasize the fact they were/are brothers in arms. It's what I take away most from their friendship personally, the fact that they endured the worst the world had to offer together and at each other's sides.

Don't recall anyone saying that the scene of Bucky's death was not a retcon. In fairness, the 1950s stories don't make a lot of internal sense, that acknowledges Bucky was a kid sidekick in 1940s and years later, he is still a kid? Of course, there is a significant difference too. There wasn't decades of worth of stories built around Captain America and Bucky's surviving and operating after the War, and the concept of continuity and shared-universe as Stan Lee was doing it was different and new. And, there was a disconnect between FF#1 and the old Atlas/Timely Comics. Unlike DC, Marvel had not been continuously publishing adventures starring any of their superheroes. Continuity begins with FF#1 and they could pick and choose which of those old comics stories and characters that would fit. They could just as easily done a Flash, creating a new superhero who was inspired in his identity by some old comics featuring a "fictional" superhero called Captain America. So, it's hardly the same sense of scale as changing Buicky's origin and death which had been part of established lore and referenced untold times in the past 40 years. He was dead far longer than he could have been assumed to have still been around when Stan Lee wrote his death scene.

There shouldn't really be a problem then. Bucky's old origins still exist in the 616 as a cover story printed in comics, while the 00's retcon of his origin in the army is what "actually happened". Seeing how those comics back then didn't follow the continuity Stan Lee established, they aren't exactly required to "keep true" to the origins technically. Does it even count as a retcon if what was supposedly replaced happened before the continuity was established?

[4sake Baned]

No, that was about Polaris having the same powers as her father, Magneto. The idea of mutation is that the offspring mutates and is different from the parent, Polaris having Mags powers meant she isn't a mutant as she has the same traits as the parents, in this case his powers.

Of course Marvel's stance of the whole mutant thing is that mutants have an active 'x-gene', which makes them mutants and many other Marvel characters have powers but not an active X-gene.

Po also has energy hair but most writers seem to forget that and in addition at one time had a second mutation that involve super strength and emotions.. so even still with similar powers to Mags she still is/would be consider a mutant going by that definition

[Adam-X]

There have been a lot of horribly written retcons.

But there is ONE that really gets under my skin.

The rewriting of GIANT SIZE X-MEN by Brubaker to make his character "Vulcan" validated...

That one is just unforgivable.

[Nomads1]

There have been a lot of horribly written retcons.

But there is ONE that really gets under my skin.

The rewriting of GIANT SIZE X-MEN by Brubaker to make his character "Vulcan" validated...

That one is just unforgivable.

Also was not a fan of it (especially because I liked the two new girl mutants he killed off), But it lead to some pretty good stories. I really liked Rise and Fall of the Shi'ar Empire and War of Kings, even if Vulcan was na annoying character.

Peace