Bendis, Alonso Share Intentions Behind "All-New X-Men" Outing

[Wissenschaft]

Sounds like Bendis is using this as an excuse to create Tumblr's fanfiction into the mainline comics.

Let it never be said that Bendis does not listen to the fans.

[Gray Lensman]

Talk of that has been ongoing for some time. I first encountered it long before I got into comics, in 2004 when a friend and fanfic writer told me how he thought Iceman could be portrayed as in the closet. (He picks a girlfriend, Rogue, who he can't touch or do anything with?) Others, with longer histories as fans, have testified that the idea of Bobby being gay long predates Bendis' run.

I think there was a thread on CBR pre-reboot titled 'Iceman: Gay, or lying to himself?' It even had a poll (and I don't think there was any option for straight). Granted, it was trollish, but it shows me that this is nothing new at all.

[RandyMcDonald]

If everything stands as is, I'm not very pleased about it. Not because I inherently have anything against Bobby being gay, but wasn't this issue kind of already covered? I can't remember when, but didn't Northstar have the hots for Bobby at one point and Bobby turned him down because he just plain wasn't gay? (I just looked it up and it apparently happened during Chuck Austen's run, which I'm honestly ok with retconning into oblivion)

Bobby did not respond to Jean-Paul romantically, but there are multiple explanations for that. He could have been uninterested in Northstar specifically. Perhaps more plausibly, he wasn't able to consider the idea of a relationship with a man. His befuddlement in UXM 425 when he apparently learned for the first time that Northstar was gay suggests to me that, at least until that point, Bobby had some notable blinders on.

[themasething]

Let it never be said that Bendis does not listen to the fans.

If Tumblr is the fanbase Bendis/Marvel wants to listen to, then I'm done. Listening to Tumblr is just as bad as listening to Reddit or 4chan.

[DocSpin]

If Tumblr is the fanbase Bendis/Marvel wants to listen to, then I'm done. Listening to Tumblr is just as bad as listening to Reddit or 4chan.

The idea that Bendis writes to Tumblr's wishes is simply a ridiculous premise.

[Gray Lensman]

The idea that Bendis writes to Tumblr's wishes is simply a ridiculous premise.

If he writes based on them, it's to wind them up.

[Flaneur]

I really massively disliked the scene, because it had teen Jean effectively invading someone's personal space without their consent and then speaking over them about how they identify. The phrase 'full on gay' is also where the bi-erasure sits, because it implies that bisexual people are just part gays and the legitimate point is homosexuality. That said, I understand why she forced the topic to be discussed, considering Bobby does engage in low level sexist behaviour a lot (e.g his objectification of Magik), and this does bring that behaviour to an end.

I have to say, though, that this thread is just a bit ridiculous. Can people stop pretending to be experts on 'how things work' in explaining why Bobby can't be gay? There are people in their 70s with grandchildren who are only just coming to terms with their identity and Bobby isn't even 30 yet and is without anything I'd really call a long term relationship. People still attempt to kill themselves in decent numbers because they struggle with this very difficult question, so repressing it is not unheard of. Identity is messy, and there is actually no such thing as being able to point at a relationship between a man and a woman as ultimate 'proof' about heterosexuality because there's no actual basis in reality that it would work that way.

Moreover, this actually has some precedent to work with given that he's had a string of failed relationship problems, issues with confidence and self-esteem, has attempted two relationships with people of ambiguous gender, fan conjecture about this possibility at least since I started reading X-men over a decade ago and even had writers mention off the books that they consider him LGBTIQ. Now that we've had someone with unlimited telepathic power confirm the identity of the character, which we've had the publisher, writer and the events inside the book confirm as the REAL deal, it's pretty legit.

This attempt to discredit it with theories about how this is an alternate reality (directly contradicted by books, author statements, and publisher), contradicts his later identity (doesn't work that way), or is connected to placating tumblr (this predates that) is more of a reach than any of the 'projecting' that fans have done about Ice-man previously. Also, the comments about 'pandering' are kind of insulting, and I suggest people really don't run with implications of the gay agenda.

[Flaneur]

Also, the idea that older characters should be left alone (why? to keep hetero-geek power fantasies 'pure'?) is one that isn't really compatible with much diversity. The comic code restricted presentations of sexuality into the 80s, so it's essentially an argument that no long running character can be lesbian, bisexual, gay, transgender, intersex or anywhere else in that complicated spectrum.

This is why Storm and Mystique's sexualities were implied rather than openly stated for so long, meanwhile you'd have men and women together in relationships left, right and centre.

[SolarRadical]

.

Moreover, this actually has some precedent to work with given that he's had a string of failed relationship problems, issues with confidence and self-esteem, has attempted two relationships with people of ambiguous gender, fan conjecture about this possibility at least since I started reading X-men over a decade ago and even had writers mention off the books that they consider him LGBTIQ. Now that we've had someone with unlimited telepathic power confirm the identity of the character, which we've had the publisher, writer and the events inside the book confirm as the REAL deal, it's pretty legit.

I find this to be terrible reasoning for this lazy recton, and the implication that people that don't always have stable relationships are gay and would probably mean over half of marvels characters are gay/lesbians. and in the story there is no indication that bobby is gay in his long history other than fan wishing. let alone the story quality is so bad it makes it look like bendis is say being gay is a choice with adult bobby willing himself straight or bisexuals don't exist with the everybody is bi but your full gay comment.

And I hope to god this lazy writing doesn't set a precedent.

[Grey]

I really massively disliked the scene, because it had teen Jean effectively invading someone's personal space without their consent and then speaking over them about how they identify. The phrase 'full on gay' is also where the bi-erasure sits, because it implies that bisexual people are just part gays and the legitimate point is homosexuality. That said, I understand why she forced the topic to be discussed, considering Bobby does engage in low level sexist behaviour a lot (e.g his objectification of Magik), and this does bring that behaviour to an end.

I have to say, though, that this thread is just a bit ridiculous. Can people stop pretending to be experts on 'how things work' in explaining why Bobby can't be gay? There are people in their 70s with grandchildren who are only just coming to terms with their identity and Bobby isn't even 30 yet and is without anything I'd really call a long term relationship. People still attempt to kill themselves in decent numbers because they struggle with this very difficult question, so repressing it is not unheard of. Identity is messy, and there is actually no such thing as being able to point at a relationship between a man and a woman as ultimate 'proof' about heterosexuality because there's no actual basis in reality that it would work that way.

Moreover, this actually has some precedent to work with given that he's had a string of failed relationship problems, issues with confidence and self-esteem, has attempted two relationships with people of ambiguous gender, fan conjecture about this possibility at least since I started reading X-men over a decade ago and even had writers mention off the books that they consider him LGBTIQ. Now that we've had someone with unlimited telepathic power confirm the identity of the character, which we've had the publisher, writer and the events inside the book confirm as the REAL deal, it's pretty legit.

This attempt to discredit it with theories about how this is an alternate reality (directly contradicted by books, author statements, and publisher), contradicts his later identity (doesn't work that way), or is connected to placating tumblr (this predates that) is more of a reach than any of the 'projecting' that fans have done about Ice-man previously. Also, the comments about 'pandering' are kind of insulting, and I suggest people really don't run with implications of the gay agenda.

Quoted for truth.

Sadly, the people that your wise words should enlighten are people who, at least based on this thread, don't seem to comprehend what you're saying. So frustrating when two people are talking to each other in metaphorically different languages.

[Flaneur]

I find this to be terrible reasoning for this lazy recton, and the implication that people that don't always have stable relationships are gay and would probably mean over half of marvels characters are gay/lesbians. and in the story there is no indication that bobby is gay in his long history other than fan wishing. let alone the story quality is so bad it makes it look like bendis is say being gay is a choice with adult bobby willing himself straight or bisexuals don't exist with the everybody is bi but your full gay comment.

And I hope to god this lazy writing doesn't set a precedent.

No one, and not me, is saying every single person with a failed relationship is gay or lesbian. Stop projecting your insecurities.

If you can't out a character who has no successful relationships with the opposite sex, who has self-esteem problems that one might expect of a closeted person, who has had relationships with people like Cloud and Mystique who actually spend huge amounts of time LIVING AS MEN, who has had decades of innuendo leading to extensive fan conjecture and has had previous writers come out saying they think he's not straight then you simply cannot out a character. What kind of indication do you want? Photos of Ice-man in an orgy with Northstar and Daken?

This is absurd. As is your comment about this suggesting that this makes any comment on 'choice' considering people in real life can spend over half a century figuring out their own sexuality.

[SolarRadical]

No one, and not me, is saying every single person with a failed relationship is gay or lesbian. Stop projecting your insecurities.

If you can't out a character who has no successful relationships with the opposite sex, who has self-esteem problems that one might expect of a closeted person, who has had relationships with people like Cloud and Mystique who actually spend huge amounts of time LIVING AS MEN, who has had decades of innuendo leading to extensive fan conjecture and has had previous writers come out saying they think he's not straight then you simply cannot out a character. What kind of indication do you want? Photos of Ice-man in an orgy with Northstar and Daken?

This is absurd. As is your comment about this suggesting that this makes any comment on 'choice' considering people in real life can spend over half a century figuring out their own sexuality.

One I'm not projecting my insecurities(please stop projecting on me) and two you seem quite hostile

I say it's fan wishing because story wise their is no indication other then fans pulling out innuendos which can applied to any cape comic with the overt homo eroticism in the genre. And him dating shape shifter would make a better implication of him being Bi not gay, and it also doesn't ruin decades of character development. you want to know why people are not pleased with the recent development it's because it doesn't look nor feel genuine,like prodigies situation a publicity stunt. Along with Bendis doing a very bad execution it comes off as lazy and thoughtless and makes less than nice implications on sexuality.

And honestly I think the only reason people are letting it slide is that they get their first "a list" gay superhero, be damned about story quality, and a bunch of straight people patting each other on the back on how progressive they are, and champions of equality. If Bendis really cared about this issue he would have not done it right before he left, cause it seem like it's only meant for attention and his run being the unforgettable one.

[Flaneur]

One I'm not projecting my insecurities(please stop projecting on me) and two you seem quite hostile

Then stop putting words in people's mouths about some absurd doomsday scenario where every character turns gay.

I say it's fan wishing because story wise their is no indication other then fans pulling out innuendos which can applied to any cape comic with the overt homo eroticism in the genre. And him dating shape shifter would make a better implication of him being Bi not gay, and it also doesn't ruin decades of character development. you want to know why people are not pleased with the recent development it's because it doesn't look nor feel genuine,like prodigies situation a publicity stunt. Along with Bendis doing a very bad execution it comes off as lazy and thoughtless and makes less than nice implications on sexuality.

'Ruin decades of character development'? How? His relationships still existed, his challenges in discovering his powers still existed, and his sense of humour still existed. His entire character, which has had very little happen to it over the last 40 years or whatever, still exists.

And honestly I think the only reason people are letting it slide is that they get their first "a list" gay superhero, be damned about story quality, and a bunch of straight people patting each other on the back on how progressive they are, and champions of equality. If Bendis really cared about this issue he would have not done it right before he left, cause it seem like it's only meant for attention and his run being the unforgettable one.

'Letting it slide'?

There are four threads spouting up of people trying to denounce this as illegitimate based on reasons like i) you just can't out straight characters, ii) bobby had relationships with women and gay men never do that before coming out, iii) that the all new x-men are alternate reality characters despite this directly contradicting everything by Marvel, Bendis and comic canon and iv) that this is a violation of continuity with no prior basis despite writer's comments in interviews, decades of innuendo, the stereotypical emotional issues, the lack of any successful relationship with a woman and two relationships with people who've lived as men.

This is a ridiculous burden of proof being expected for it to be 'genuine', which just doesn't at all correlate to how things work in real life and is very unlikely to ever be met in any outing process. I agree that Bendis wasn't the best writer for this, and I think the scene was awful, but none of the previous objections are actually relevant to that point.

[The Negative Zone]

I'm saying, they weren't allowed to make gay characters back then. So by your logic "if they weren't created gay, they should stay straight" that means no characters created back then could ever come out of the closet

That's why Marvel should create gay characters instead of changing the old ones.

[The Negative Zone]

Also, the idea that older characters should be left alone (why? to keep hetero-geek power fantasies 'pure'?) is one that isn't really compatible with much diversity. The comic code restricted presentations of sexuality into the 80s, so it's essentially an argument that no long running character can be lesbian, bisexual, gay, transgender, intersex or anywhere else in that complicated spectrum.

This is why Storm and Mystique's sexualities were implied rather than openly stated for so long, meanwhile you'd have men and women together in relationships left, right and centre.

Why must old characters be changed to fit diversity? Why does everything have to be diverse? Why can't writers just write instead of trying to please people in terms of representation?