Bendis On Iceman's Outing, Says "I'm Not Done With This Story Yet"

[Mark]

No argument there, it's all about the money, i just like to think that at some point it was about good story telling AND the money before we got to where we are now.

I'd like to think that too, but based on past history I just don't.

[CSTowle]

Unless you think Iceman embracing his orientation is going to lead to a cosmic war or some other atrocity I don't see this as being on the same level as what Xavier did (many times over, with many different people, actually altering memories and feelings with his powers). This is like Jean reading his diary where he felt safe admitting he was gay and had a crush on a boy, and then him trying to deny it while she says, "but I read it in your diary, you're totally gay Bobby." A d##k move on her part, but she's a nosy and aggressive teenager (not the Lee/Kirby version as a prim and proper young lady, but would you really want her to be in 2015?) so I'd expect nothing less.

She doesn't want him to have to feel like he has to hide this thing, especially since he can't from her. She wants him to be comfortable and embrace it. Again, could have handled it better (I've enjoyed Bendis on some things and not others, but he definitely has storytelling faults and characterization is one of them) but since she's not enslaving an artificial intelligence, wiping memories from anyone, or making anyone do something they don't want to do (in an Amelia Voght way) I'm going to chalk this up as the easiest way to get Iceman to get there that makes sense from a story standpoint. And probably some trolling of internet fans, but I'm OK with it as an Iceman fan (which is like being a Black Panther fan before Priest, good luck finding panel time).

[Hulkout42]

Unless you think Iceman embracing his orientation is going to lead to a cosmic war or some other atrocity I don't see this as being on the same level as what Xavier did (many times over, with many different people, actually altering memories and feelings with his powers). This is like Jean reading his diary where he felt safe admitting he was gay and had a crush on a boy, and then him trying to deny it while she says, "but I read it in your diary, you're totally gay Bobby." A d##k move on her part, but she's a nosy and aggressive teenager (not the Lee/Kirby version as a prim and proper young lady, but would you really want her to be in 2015?) so I'd expect nothing less.

She doesn't want him to have to feel like he has to hide this thing, especially since he can't from her. She wants him to be comfortable and embrace it. Again, could have handled it better (I've enjoyed Bendis on some things and not others, but he definitely has storytelling faults and characterization is one of them) but since she's not enslaving an artificial intelligence, wiping memories from anyone, or making anyone do something they don't want to do (in an Amelia Voght way) I'm going to chalk this up as the easiest way to get Iceman to get there that makes sense from a story standpoint. And probably some trolling of internet fans, but I'm OK with it as an Iceman fan (which is like being a Black Panther fan before Priest, good luck finding panel time).

My point isn't what the level of the reaction will be but rather that there very well will be one, we all have been focusing on Young Bobby's reaction that so far is in the positive however we have yet to see what the present day version's reaction is, now granted it would be a lot of conjecture but i for one am curious of what caused present day Iceman to not pursue the choice his younger version will follow now that it is out as well as how he will react towards Teen Jean unasked intervention. Present day Bobby has had some stressful moments due to the presence of the younger X-men as well as recent events with Cyclops, how would he react to having a secret he has kept for so long suddenly be exposed even if it is only between himself, his younger version and teen Jean.

I read fanfic recently that was created in lieu of this called "X-Gay" (it could have been a better title in my opinion) and frankly the story portrays a rather plausible scenario of how the present day Iceman took the news. Now we have to wait for Bendis to make his move and see how he follows through with what he has wrought.

[CSTowle]

The last sentence I'm in agreement with, let's wait and see how things turn out. It's possible they're going soft reboot after Secret Wars, taking the opportunity to shuffle some details here and there. It's possible Young Bobby will be back in the past and older Bobby will just be an adult gay version of himself and this will be the groundwork laid so it's not out of left field.

[Michael P]

"They did it for the money" is a very stupid argument considering the story was revealed by a leak, well after the order cut-off date, and therefore garnered Marvel exactly 0 extra orders.

Also, is there big money to be had in outing previously straight comic book characters? News to me.

[Mark]

"They did it for the money" is a very stupid argument considering the story was revealed by a leak, well after the order cut-off date, and therefore garnered Marvel exactly 0 extra orders.

Also, is there big money to be had in outing previously straight comic book characters? News to me.

When a hardware store cuts the price of paint they don't make money on the paint, they make money on the brushes, tarps, trays and all the other things you need to paint. See how much of an increase the orders for the next issue are.

[Mark]

Unless you think Iceman embracing his orientation is going to lead to a cosmic war or some other atrocity I don't see this as being on the same level as what Xavier did (many times over, with many different people, actually altering memories and feelings with his powers). This is like Jean reading his diary where he felt safe admitting he was gay and had a crush on a boy, and then him trying to deny it while she says, "but I read it in your diary, you're totally gay Bobby." A d##k move on her part, but she's a nosy and aggressive teenager (not the Lee/Kirby version as a prim and proper young lady, but would you really want her to be in 2015?) so I'd expect nothing less.

She doesn't want him to have to feel like he has to hide this thing, especially since he can't from her. She wants him to be comfortable and embrace it. Again, could have handled it better (I've enjoyed Bendis on some things and not others, but he definitely has storytelling faults and characterization is one of them) but since she's not enslaving an artificial intelligence, wiping memories from anyone, or making anyone do something they don't want to do (in an Amelia Voght way) I'm going to chalk this up as the easiest way to get Iceman to get there that makes sense from a story standpoint. And probably some trolling of internet fans, but I'm OK with it as an Iceman fan (which is like being a Black Panther fan before Priest, good luck finding panel time).

The same level on a cosmic scale? No. The same level on a personal scale? Yes. It's a violation of his privacy and if she did alter his mind a violation of that as well. I wouldn't expect her to do it, but I never expected Prof X or any of the other characters in marvel to turn out to be the semi-supervilains they've become. If Bendis thinks it is right for the story he is crafting then characterization gets tossed into the circular file and he'll let another writer pick up the pieces.

[CSTowle]

No, it's not the same. Xavier wiped memories. Xavier altered memories. Jean can't control her suddenly heightened level of power and she's picking up thoughts left and right (and really not bothering to filter them out). And unless you're serious with the speculation that Jean "made" Bobby gay there's really nothing at all equal about the situations (other than the use of similar powers for different ends).

[Wiccan615]

Ignore the fact the one who actually is gay and wanted to hook up has thoroughly convinced he's 100% straight. Just.. ignore that fact. But you know, comics.

Um....I've been wrong about people's sexuality lots of times. There are lots of people who come across as straight but aren't.

Also "they're doing this for money" is still a dumb argument because you can literally insert that argument towards any plot you don't personally like. Everything in comics is done for money. Whether the decisions are good or bad is subjective. Also, we have yet to see if outting a character as gay is something that even sells.

Oh and another thing to add: it shouldn't matter if a character shows "signs" of being gay before they come out or not. That's not a requirement for being gay. There are plenty of people who live hetero lives, with happy marriages and kids but later come out as gay because they've been deeply repressed.

[Mark]

No, it's not the same. Xavier wiped memories. Xavier altered memories. Jean can't control her suddenly heightened level of power and she's picking up thoughts left and right (and really not bothering to filter them out). And unless you're serious with the speculation that Jean "made" Bobby gay there's really nothing at all equal about the situations (other than the use of similar powers for different ends).

Yes, it is speculation. But based on past marvel history I think it's a possibility.

[Mark]

Also "they're doing this for money" is still a dumb argument because you can literally insert that argument towards any plot you don't personally like. Everything in comics is done for money. Whether the decisions are good or bad is subjective. Also, we have yet to see if outting a character as gay is something that even sells.

Oh and another thing to add: it shouldn't matter if a character shows "signs" of being gay before they come out or not. That's not a requirement for being gay. There are plenty of people who live hetero lives, with happy marriages and kids but later come out as gay because they've been deeply repressed.

What is a requirement then, if there is one? Because based on that Johnny Storm could be gay and so could Reed Richards.

They don't know if it will sell, but stunts are nearly guaranteed to sell and this has all the hallmarks of a stunt. Surprise move, carefully leaked, lots of press attention, lots of chatter; to me that leans toward stunt more than story.

[Wiccan615]

What is a requirement then, if there is one? Because based on that Johnny Storm could be gay and so could Reed Richards.

They don't know if it will sell, but stunts are nearly guaranteed to sell and this has all the hallmarks of a stunt. Surprise move, carefully leaked, lots of press attention, lots of chatter; to me that leans toward stunt more than story.

That's the thing: there is no requirement. Anyone can be gay, you don't need to be a specific type of person with a specific history. Gay people come from all walks of life and have all kinds of experiences. Gay characters should never have to be limited to a subset of rules and archetypes in order to have their stories told.

That's your opinion. I don't interpret outting a character as gay as a "stunt" I see it as a form of character development. If it sells, it sells. It it doesn't, it doesn't. And I think you're completely exaggerating and making it sound like some conspiracy. Something like this would have been controversial either way. Anything relating to LGBT issues is controversial and would gain media attention. Does that mean we shouldn't have LGBT characters and story lines? Controversy and media attention doesn't always equate to a sales success and shouldn't dictate the authenticity of a story.

And again, you can insert that argument towards any storyline, comics are made to sell.

[Hulkout42]

And again, you can insert that argument towards any storyline, comics are made to sell.

But do they sell better with or without controversy involved? The controversy here being what jean did (ignoring the intent involved in her actions) and how this affects both versions of Iceman. Again the ball is now in Bendis court and we have to wait and see where he goes with it, for all we know he only put this there to make sure we pay attention to his last X-men run (for the moment) and make sure to buy the final issues regardless of Secret Wars (which i don't think will cover this mess to be honest, to many Warzones and what not.)

[Wiccan615]

But do they sell better with or without controversy involved? The controversy here being what jean did (ignoring the intent involved in her actions) and how this affects both versions of Iceman. Again the ball is now in Bendis court and we have to wait and see where he goes with it, for all we know he only put this there to make sure we pay attention to his last X-men run (for the moment) and make sure to buy the final issues regardless of Secret Wars (which i don't think will cover this mess to be honest, to many Warzones and what not.)

Some books sell better with controversy involved, some don't. A lot of books have actually lost readers due to controversial decisions. The point of the argument is that the intent of all writers is to write a book that sells in the first place, sometimes controversy sacrifices creative integrity, other times it allows for development. But anything in regards to LGBT issues are controversial either way and there is no precedent to prove that outting a character will have a positive correlation with sales. It will likely have positive effects on LGBT readers, especially LGBT youth, which, imo was the intent of the storyline.

[korubin]

That's the thing: there is no requirement. Anyone can be gay, you don't need to be a specific type of person with a specific history.

Well, that's not true. You do need a specific type of person: a gay person. And you need that person to have a specific history: interest in the same sex.

There's no rule that all gay people have to behave the same, but you do actually need them to be gay. That's a problem here because the character's established history show him as straight. Even temporally displaced Bobby has only shown interest in girls. Now yes, you could say that he's afraid of coming out and so hid his actual interests. But that's not what happened. What happened was a telepath read his mind and told Bobby he was gay. And his reaction wasn't just denial. He really seemed surprised by it as if he didn't know he was gay.

That's not just a douche move. It's bad writing. Honestly, what teenager doesn't know who they find attractive?

I don't interpret outting a character as gay as a "stunt" I see it as a form of character development.

Iceman's been around for 60 years. He's got a pretty established character. Making a character gay isn't character development. It's a stunt. Having it happen the way it did totally shows that. If it were about character development, this would've been stretched out over a year's worth of issues. But it wasn't. It's nothing but a trick to look "diverse" and "inclusive," which is even lazier since Marvel already has out gay characters to work with.

Does that mean we shouldn't have LGBT characters and story lines?

That really has nothing to do with this decision. You can have whatever characters you want. Changing established characters to appeal to political agendas is pandering and makes for terrible storytelling. It's never about the character. It's always about the character just being there. That's really lazy.

Besides, it defeats the whole point of having mutants. Mutants are a metaphor for the outcast groups. The mutation should be the focus. The moment you make the thing mutants are a metaphor of the focus, there's no point in having them be mutants. You don't need superpowers to tell that story. It's real. So this too proves it's got nothing to do with character development and storytelling. It's just pandering.