Hulk #15 - The only one there will ever be!

[TheStrongestOne]

I liked Red Hulk as a bad guy. One of the few really top tier bad guy power houses left since so many (Juggernaut, Gladiator) end up becoming good guys for whatever reason. Even the evil Abomination was killed and replaced by a good version. When they turned Red Hulk good too, who exactly were these guys supposed to fight?

Some Spider-Man fans felt the same way when Venom became Agent Venom. Valid point. I would love Red as just a villian... much better than plain old Ross which is what we got now....

[TheStrongestOne]

I don't think it's "being threatened" (whatever that means). The more characters with the name "Hulk" in their title the more "Hulk" becomes merely a brand/title than a specific name of a character. Bruce Banner is the Hulk. It's what makes the character unique. War Machine is his own character with his own name and motivations. He's an ancillary character that supports a well-established one. Same with Beta Ray Bill. Same type of powers and strength as Thor, but with a unique origin story and background to stand on his own. The moment you have more than one Hulk, Thor, Spider-Man, Captain America, Iron Man etc., is the moment that you weaken the original concept, because now anyone can really be Hulk with a dousing of gamma rays or whatever. It draws away the unique circumstances of the original concept for the sake of "expanding the brand" instead of establishing new characters with their own qualities and backgrounds.

When Red Hulk joined the Avengers and Red's comic was outselling Green's, I remember some core Hulk fans getting angry about Red's growing popularity and acted very threatened by it. I'm not saying with the majority... but it was there...

And where I'll disagree is Red Hulk is exactly like War Machine... or Beta Ray Bill... both who's presense is no longer there to support an established character (i.e. Iron Man and Thor). Like them Red does have a unique origin story (thanks to Modok and Leader) and background. Like them Red has had his own stories and joined their own teams (just like War Machine and Beta). To suggest Hulk's concept is weakened because anyone can be doused with gamma rays... yet Iron Man's concept is not weakened with War Machine even though anyone can strap on an iron suit.. well just doesn't make sense. With that conflict, your argument appears based on personal tastes rather than logic.

So let's just agree to disagree.

[TheStrongestOne]

When Red Hulk joined the Avengers and Red's comic was outselling Green's, I remember some core Hulk fans getting angry about Red's growing popularity and acted very threatened by it. I'm not saying with the majority... but it was there...

And where I'll disagree is Red Hulk is exactly like War Machine... or Beta Ray Bill... both who's presense is no longer there to support an established character (i.e. Iron Man and Thor). Like them Red does have a unique origin story (thanks to Modok and Leader) and background. Like them Red has had his own stories and joined their own teams (just like War Machine and Beta). To suggest Hulk's concept is weakened because anyone can be doused with gamma rays... yet Iron Man's concept is not weakened with War Machine even though anyone can strap on an iron suit.. well just doesn't make sense. With that conflict, your argument appears based on personal tastes rather than logic.

So let's just agree to disagree.

But I'd be down with giving him his own name... different from Red Hulk... . Although it would lose the irony of Ross becoming the thing he hates the most.. a Hulk.... so maybe not.

[Mutant God]

I love Hulk but Doc Green has been overbearing and selfish; he hasn't done anything for me to root for. Everyone keeps talking about the return of Maestro, but what is so cool about that?

I like Hulk too but I think its a fitting way for Marvel to move on with its stories by having Maestro become a major villian for Avengers/Future Avengers, having Ross be right about Hulk/Banner, and having an original Avenger become a villain makes a very interesting story... but probably not for Hulk fans

[Talkie Toaster]

I dunno, I consider myself a Hulk fan and I'm very excited for the return of the Maestro.
Especially because he's gonna be written by PAD again

[ChrisIII]

I think the storyline also has hinted that Doc Green's intelligence is starting to fall, that he'll eventually become Savage Hulk again or something. This seems to be supported in part by the next issue's cover, which seems to show Savage alongside Doc Green and Maestro, possibly in Banner/Hulk's head or something.

[Anubhavkumarc]

I loved Doc Green as a character, I hope they don't replace him with Savage Hulk, atleast for a while. And Ross was never supposed to be a hero, do we forget he was the person why nutrient bath went wrong?

[Nomads1]

I don't buy this "diluted" argument. Does War Machine dilute Iron Man's universe or enrich it? If Hulk is a strong character these powered supporting characters should enhance his world... not hurt him. In my opinion the dilution argument is a reaction to feeling threatened by the popularity of these characters.. or just disliking them due to personal taste... again in my opinion.

Personally, I think WM dillutes Iron Man's universe. Iron Patriot, even more. I mean, Rhodey is probably my favorite IM supporting character. I may like him even more than Tony himself, loved him both times he was the Iron Man stand in, especially the second Kaminski/WM one, but War Machine is an inferior copy of Iron Man. I mean he is a normal man in a Stark designed suit of armor. He doesn't even have Tony's tech know-how. Why would anyone need him when they had the original? As much as I hated the alien-like design, I loved it when they gave Rhodey the war-wear. He could finally stand out from under Tony's shadow and be his own man. Too bad it didn't last (and the design was really atrocious).
Same goes for John Walker. I mean, Cap doesn't have exclusive rights on being a patriotic hero, and, as character goes, John's flaws make him tons more interesting than Steve's near perfection, but giving John a hand me down replacement suit that Cap used to wear, including a shield was really bad for the character. Once more, I prefered the Work Force look with the energy-shield gauntlets, which also didn't last long. As derivative versions go, the most I ccan accept is an other gender version, such as She-Hulk, or Spider-woman, otherwise, they have to have more to differ them than just a cool name or a different color scheme. That's why I support when writers try to cut out the fat.
My opinion, of course.

Peace

[SuperiorIronman]

I feel as if this can be the right move in some areas but definitely isn't the go to option with other heroes.
Not all spin-off heroes are derivative and sometimes allow the writers to explore new takes on an idea. Certainly Scarlet spider worked as did Spider-girl, Ultimate and 2099. As a fan and someone who loves this ability to be able to tell any story this is good because it allows more freedom, and over time these characters develop their own identities. There is a damn good reason certain spin-offs catch on and that is when they are done right they are interesting people with different lives with fresh takes on an idea from the original. Thanks to good writers I would much rather read about Kaine being a reluctant hero with a criminal past catching up with him and gaining frightening new powers of mystic origin rather than read about the 9th time Peter Parker is having money problems and has to punch the Green Goblin. Sometimes spin-offs work.

Other times you end up with someone who is completely derivative of a working concept like certain members of the Hulk family. To me the Hulk and the Bat family are the biggest offenders of derivative characters. Hulk will forever and always be the strongest one there is. But heroes like She-Hulk and Red Hulk worked on the idea of turning this Man or Monster idea on its head. She-Hulk is a lawyer and is in full control most of the time of her Hulk form whereas Red Hulk became the very thing he hated which alone gives the ability to tell a new story. Should Red Hulk have become something more monstrous and given a more distinguished identity? Yes. The days when a Red Hulk was mysterious are long gone and certainly had the room to develop. But as it stood he worked as a nice foil but was definitely a derivative concept. For anyone who brings up War Machine just remember that he suffers from bad writers or those who don't know what to do with him. Remember Iron-man 2.0? Ghost Tech and War wear? That would've been nice going forward becoming a more militarized black ops hero similar to what Agent Venom did but some idiot thought being a copy worked better.

With Skaar this is much different but I can see both sides of the argument. He worked as being able to tell a story of Bruce being a father but still no writer cared and is now ignored mostly. It is a shame and I can see where the current writer just thought it would be wrong to keep him around but it still doesn't ignore the elephant in the room and I feel this does more damage than good because now Bruce may very well have given his son a death sentence because he took away his means of defending himself in a world full of super humans.

[TheStrongestOne]

Personally, I think WM dillutes Iron Man's universe. Iron Patriot, even more. I mean, Rhodey is probably my favorite IM supporting character. I may like him even more than Tony himself, loved him both times he was the Iron Man stand in, especially the second Kaminski/WM one, but War Machine is an inferior copy of Iron Man. I mean he is a normal man in a Stark designed suit of armor. He doesn't even have Tony's tech know-how. Why would anyone need him when they had the original? As much as I hated the alien-like design, I loved it when they gave Rhodey the war-wear. He could finally stand out from under Tony's shadow and be his own man. Too bad it didn't last (and the design was really atrocious).
Same goes for John Walker. I mean, Cap doesn't have exclusive rights on being a patriotic hero, and, as character goes, John's flaws make him tons more interesting than Steve's near perfection, but giving John a hand me down replacement suit that Cap used to wear, including a shield was really bad for the character. Once more, I prefered the Work Force look with the energy-shield gauntlets, which also didn't last long. As derivative versions go, the most I ccan accept is an other gender version, such as She-Hulk, or Spider-woman, otherwise, they have to have more to differ them than just a cool name or a different color scheme. That's why I support when writers try to cut out the fat.
My opinion, of course.

Peace

I appreciate your feelings towards those characters, and can understand the point of view of seeing these supporting character heroes as "fat" that needs to be trimmed.. but I don't think a case was made for dilution.

I believe the definition of "dilute" is to make something thinner, weaker, lessen the strength of or reduce the value of. Would someone who normally be a fan of Iron Man stop being a fan once exposed to War Machine... even if there were aspects of War Machine that might be found more interesting to said fan? Would it weaken Iron Man? To use a broad brushed example, does all the Green Lanterns dilute the popularity.. or reduce the value of...THEE original Green Lantern aka Hal Jordan? I don't see it.

I like your trimming of the fat analogy better. And maybe trimming Red She Hulk, Lyra and A-Bomb is a good idea. But to me... Ross as the cosmic & gamma powered Red Hulk.. specifically as an antagonist to the Hulk is a masterstroke.. and worthy as a permanent addition to the Marvel Universe.

[TheStrongestOne]

With Skaar this is much different but I can see both sides of the argument. He worked as being able to tell a story of Bruce being a father but still no writer cared and is now ignored mostly. It is a shame and I can see where the current writer just thought it would be wrong to keep him around but it still doesn't ignore the elephant in the room and I feel this does more damage than good because now Bruce may very well have given his son a death sentence because he took away his means of defending himself in a world full of super humans.

It does feel like there were plenty of untapped intriguing stories left to tell between Bruce and son.. more than the obvious - teaching his son how to cope with being a monster or Bruce struggling to be the father he never had.

[Talkie Toaster]

Another problem with depowering Ross is that you can't really go back to the old status quo.
Ross was the Hulk-hating military guy, but after having run around as a Hulk himself he can never believably go back to that position.


I hope a new writer repowers Ross again in the near future (and why not, Leader and Abomination have lost and regained their powers several times as well). I think there is still a lot of story mileage to be had in the monster hunter becoming the monster.

[Kurolegacy]

I've always been a fan of Jade Jaws but Hulk's book after Greg Pak's run was hit or miss depending on the creative team. Red Hulk brought me back to comics, I was intrigued with the idea of a Red Hulk. In the beginning I hated the character (Punching the Watcher was terrible) he was the clear antagonist and yes at times I did roll my eyes at his Marty Stu actions (Jeph Loeb did explain everything, Thor's hammer). It was Ross' character growth and motivation behind his actions that was brilliant IMO. He's a neutral character and anti-hero which are my favorite. Ross became a complex and compelling character to follow. Same with the rest of the (former) Hulk Family.

I love Hulk but Doc Green has been overbearing and selfish; he hasn't done anything for me to root for. Everyone keeps talking about the return of Maestro, but what is so cool about that?

I definitely agree with not seeing what's so great about Doc Green. Throughout this entire run what has he even done that was heroic? If you mention a plot that was about someone going around hunting Hulks and depowering them calling themselves Doc Green and didn't include that it was the Hulk, you'd think that there was some villain running around. This is another example of Marvel essentially making the hero the villain of their own book. And the fact that through this run it still hasn't even hinted at what the Hell Doc Green's actual motivation is, you know a key point in writing, especially for the focus character, it just comes across as a thinly veiled excuse to get rid of the other Hulks that have been built up and developed over the years.

Also when it comes to Maestro, if people are interested in him, PaD has brought him back with Spider-Man 2099 and Future Imperfect during Secret Wars and considering he's the guy who created the character, I trust him more with Maestro than anyone else.

[Mutant God]

Another problem with depowering Ross is that you can't really go back to the old status quo.
Ross was the Hulk-hating military guy, but after having run around as a Hulk himself he can never believably go back to that position.

Well there are groups who probably want Hulk's DNA or something so any group who attack Hulk would probably employ Ross to their side. In fact going with Maestro's timeline, if Hulk does become a villian, SHIELD would probably put Ross in charge of their Hulk division and in charge of their Hulkbusters (If SHIELD has Sentinels in their grasp then they most likely have their own Hulkbusters).

[VideoGameCinema]

But at that point it's like dropping a nuke to get rid of one hidden base; the collateral damage just ends up not worth it. We've lost quite a few interesting characters in this one. And I don't get it, DC can have an entire Batman Family/corporation, multiple supermen/women, multiple Flashes, and multiple lantern corps of some of the most powerful technology in the universe and nobody bats an eye yet people complain about Marvel having characters with similar power sets.

This 100%. Why should we care if we have multiple Hulks? As long as they are interesting and help forward the storyline, why should it matter? I'm not really saying this for Rulk, but more for A-bomb.

EDIT: Although I do really like Red-Hulk.