Hulk #15 - The only one there will ever be!

[Nomads1]

I appreciate your feelings towards those characters, and can understand the point of view of seeing these supporting character heroes as "fat" that needs to be trimmed.. but I don't think a case was made for dilution.

I believe the definition of "dilute" is to make something thinner, weaker, lessen the strength of or reduce the value of. Would someone who normally be a fan of Iron Man stop being a fan once exposed to War Machine... even if there were aspects of War Machine that might be found more interesting to said fan? Would it weaken Iron Man? To use a broad brushed example, does all the Green Lanterns dilute the popularity.. or reduce the value of...THEE original Green Lantern aka Hal Jordan? I don't see it.

I like your trimming of the fat analogy better. And maybe trimming Red She Hulk, Lyra and A-Bomb is a good idea. But to me... Ross as the cosmic & gamma powered Red Hulk.. specifically as an antagonist to the Hulk is a masterstroke.. and worthy as a permanent addition to the Marvel Universe.

Well, Green Lantern might be an exception because he is supposed to be one member of a whole large police force, so I guess it's natural to have other Green Lantern (I do find dificult to swallow that out of all planets in this infinite universe, many of them without a representative in the corps, there are 5 or 6 members from this little mudball Earth, and all of them are American). But I do think that anything that makes a character less unique and original weakens him. Take for instance Superman. Pre COIE, the "last son of Krypton" was as unique as fish in the sea, with super-boys, girls, babies, dogs, cats, monkeys, horses, criminals, an enlarged ciity tiny survivors and so on... Added that to the "super-everything as was required", Superman was never really in my must read list. Mostly read him in Justice League (though I did take an occasional peak in the Wolfman/Kane run that came shortly before COIE). Then came in John Byrne, and did a hell of a lot more than trim the fat. Superman went back to being unique and truely "THE LAST SON OF KRYPTON". There was no one else around like him, and that made the character sooooo much more interesting. Plus, creators really had to be creative when bringing back proprieties that had been erased by the universal change. Supergirl was now an other-dimensional artificial being. Superboy was an attempt of cloning Kryptonian DNA, merging it with human. Krypto was actually a normal dog belonging to one of Superman's greatest fans. The Phantom Zone criminals were from another dimension, and so on... Of course, as has been mentioned here, comics seem to move in circles, so it all eventually got brought back in one way or another, and Superman went back to being just another face in a large crowd of Kryptonians (I honestly have to confess that I have no idea what's it like now after the New 52. I know a Kryptonian Supergilrl is around, but not much else).
I do find interesting the angle of Ross becoming a monster like the one he always hunted, however I find a "RED Hulk" really unoriginal. Couldn't they have given him a different design and called him Red Zone, Condition Red, Defcon 1 or something else? However, as I've said, comics go in circles (nowadays, it seems, more than ever, with writers and editors not giving a crap to what the previous writers did and changing everything to suit the story he WANTS to tell, so that the next can come along and do the same, and the next, and so on...), so I guess someone will one day bring back Red Hulk Ross and maybe even the others...

Peace

[MECHANO]

Good grief... I can't believe that bad joke lasted as long as it did.

[TheStrongestOne]

Well, Green Lantern might be an exception because he is supposed to be one member of a whole large police force, so I guess it's natural to have other Green Lantern (I do find dificult to swallow that out of all planets in this infinite universe, many of them without a representative in the corps, there are 5 or 6 members from this little mudball Earth, and all of them are American). But I do think that anything that makes a character less unique and original weakens him. Take for instance Superman. Pre COIE, the "last son of Krypton" was as unique as fish in the sea, with super-boys, girls, babies, dogs, cats, monkeys, horses, criminals, an enlarged ciity tiny survivors and so on... Added that to the "super-everything as was required", Superman was never really in my must read list. Mostly read him in Justice League (though I did take an occasional peak in the Wolfman/Kane run that came shortly before COIE). Then came in John Byrne, and did a hell of a lot more than trim the fat. Superman went back to being unique and truely "THE LAST SON OF KRYPTON". There was no one else around like him, and that made the character sooooo much more interesting. Plus, creators really had to be creative when bringing back proprieties that had been erased by the universal change. Supergirl was now an other-dimensional artificial being. Superboy was an attempt of cloning Kryptonian DNA, merging it with human. Krypto was actually a normal dog belonging to one of Superman's greatest fans. The Phantom Zone criminals were from another dimension, and so on... Of course, as has been mentioned here, comics seem to move in circles, so it all eventually got brought back in one way or another, and Superman went back to being just another face in a large crowd of Kryptonians (I honestly have to confess that I have no idea what's it like now after the New 52. I know a Kryptonian Supergilrl is around, but not much else).
I do find interesting the angle of Ross becoming a monster like the one he always hunted, however I find a "RED Hulk" really unoriginal. Couldn't they have given him a different design and called him Red Zone, Condition Red, Defcon 1 or something else? However, as I've said, comics go in circles (nowadays, it seems, more than ever, with writers and editors not giving a crap to what the previous writers did and changing everything to suit the story he WANTS to tell, so that the next can come along and do the same, and the next, and so on...), so I guess someone will one day bring back Red Hulk Ross and maybe even the others...

Peace

Well, Green Lantern might be an exception because he is supposed to be one member of a whole large police force, so I guess it's natural to have other Green Lantern (I do find dificult to swallow that out of all planets in this infinite universe, many of them without a representative in the corps, there are 5 or 6 members from this little mudball Earth, and all of them are American). But I do think that anything that makes a character less unique and original weakens him. Take for instance Superman. Pre COIE, the "last son of Krypton" was as unique as fish in the sea, with super-boys, girls, babies, dogs, cats, monkeys, horses, criminals,* an enlarged ciity tiny survivors and so on... Added that to the "super-everything as* was required", Superman was never really in my must read list. Mostly read him in Justice League (though I did take an occasional peak in the Wolfman/Kane run that came shortly before COIE). Then came in John Byrne, and did a hell of a lot more than trim the fat. Superman went back to being unique and truely "THE LAST SON OF KRYPTON". There was no one else around like him, and that made the character sooooo much more interesting. Plus, creators really had to be creative when bringing back proprieties that had been erased by the universal change. Supergirl was now an other-dimensional artificial being. Superboy was an attempt of cloning Kryptonian DNA, merging it with human. Krypto was actually a normal dog belonging to one of Superman's greatest fans. The Phantom Zone criminals* were from another dimension, and so on... Of course, as has been mentioned here, comics seem to move in circles, so it all eventually got brought back in one way or another, and Superman went back to being just another face in a large crowd of Kryptonians (I honestly have to confess that I have no idea what's it like now after the New 52. I know a Kryptonian Supergilrl is around, but not much else).

I do find interesting the angle of Ross becoming a monster like the one he always hunted, however I find a "RED Hulk" really unoriginal. Couldn't they have given him a* different design and called him Red Zone, Condition Red, Defcon 1 or something else? However, as I've said, comics go in circles (nowadays, it seems, more than ever, with writers and editors not giving a crap to what the previous writers did and changing everything to suit the story he WANTS to tell, so that the next can come along and do the same, and the next, and so on...), so I guess someone will one day bring back Red Hulk Ross and maybe even the others...

Peace

I do like your points on Superman.. and see the validity in a lot of what you say... and could apply The Super Boys, Girls and Cats comparison to many of these Hulk Family characters like Lyra, She-Hulk, A-Bomb... etc.


But the difference to me is.... in the Superman universe... I would compare the Red Hulk to ZOD... as a perfect foil to The Hulk. *It may require Ross to always be more of an mis-directed antagonist than an Avenger (which suits me fine) but Hulk's universe is definitely enriched by Red's presense in my opinion.*


And even though I love the irony of Ross becoming what he hates most... a Hulk.. I always felt agreeable to a name change. Actually I was always just fine with Rulk... a name commonly associated with Red in story and out... but somehow never got traction with the editors (even though any reader of Marvel knows what character "Rulk" refers to.)

[TheStrongestOne]

i wasn't a fan of Red Hulk till Jeff Parker started writing for the character. his run really got me to like Rulk...which i thought was impossible. and i seriously doubt this is the absolute last we've seen of Red Hulk.

Jeff Parker's Red Hulk run was amazing. By chance if you haven't read it, I'd recommend checking out Jeff Parker's FALL OF THE HULKS : ALPHA. Reading an issue totally dedicated to The Leader and the Intelligencia's involvement with The Beyonder, Venom, and all the strings they have been pulling behind the scenes throughout the years in the Marvel Universe was pure joy! Great stuff!!

[GreenScar1990]

Out of all the Hulks, Red Hulk should be the main one to permanently leave.

Skaar, Lyra, and She-Hulk should be allowed to stay. For they're a part of Hulk's legacy. They are unique and full of infinite potential individually, proving more than often to stand on their own without diluting the Hulk/Banner character. I can only hope that Skaar uses the Old Power to regain his heritage and She-Hulk & Lyra keep their Hulk sides.

Now, when it comes to A-Bomb & Red She-Hulk, I could take or leave them. In all honesty, though, I never truly had a problem with any of the Hulks. That's why I'm not too particularly fond of the overall story of Omega Hulk. It just feels like Marvel & Duggan just wanted to simply do a culling of the Hulks, despite the fact that there's other gamma rogues like Leader, Abomination, etc running about the Marvel Universe.

Besides, I feel that is a great waste to simply depower beings like Skaar, Lyra, She-Hulk, etc. Why not use them instead? Skaar would have been far more suited than Captain America to star in the upcoming Secret Wars: Planet Hulk or maybe as an ally to the rebels against the Maestro in Secret Wars: Future Imperfect? And Lyra could have joined Jen on the upcoming Secret Wars: A-Force.

[TheStrongestOne]

Out of all the Hulks, Red Hulk should be the main one to permanently leave.

Skaar, Lyra, and She-Hulk should be allowed to stay. For they're a part of Hulk's legacy. They are unique and full of infinite potential individually, proving more than often to stand on their own without diluting the Hulk/Banner character. I can only hope that Skaar uses the Old Power to regain his heritage and She-Hulk & Lyra keep their Hulk sides.

Now, when it comes to A-Bomb & Red She-Hulk, I could take or leave them. In all honesty, though, I never truly had a problem with any of the Hulks. That's why I'm not too particularly fond of the overall story of Omega Hulk. It just feels like Marvel & Duggan just wanted to simply do a culling of the Hulks, despite the fact that there's other gamma rogues like Leader, Abomination, etc running about the Marvel Universe.

Besides, I feel that is a great waste to simply depower beings like Skaar, Lyra, She-Hulk, etc. Why not use them instead? Skaar would have been far more suited than Captain America to star in the upcoming Secret Wars: Planet Hulk or maybe as an ally to the rebels against the Maestro in Secret Wars: Future Imperfect? And Lyra could have joined Jen on the upcoming Secret Wars: A-Force.

And I see the exact opposite. Red Hulk has the most reason to stay... as a foil to the Hulk... especially over Lyra, Skaar & A-Bomb.. and even over the She-Hulks. He's a great villian for Big Greenie.

[GreenScar1990]

And I see the exact opposite. Red Hulk has the most reason to stay... as a foil to the Hulk... especially over Lyra, Skaar & A-Bomb.. and even over the She-Hulks. He's a great villian for Big Greenie.

That's your opinion, and I respect it.

However, it is quite known how popular Skaar, Lyra, and Jen are. A lot of people favor them way more than Rulk. And I'm definitely one. Don't get me wrong. Loved what Jeff Parker had done with Ross, but his time has come to a much-needed end. Unlike Skaar, Lyra, and Jen... he's not family and thus is not considered a genuine part of Banner/Hulk's legacy.

[resipsaloquitur]

I don't think one can objectively say whether Ross is or isn't part of the Hulk's supposed "legacy." For better or worse, the Hulk as a character constantly vascillates between having a supporting cast and not having one. Betty, Rick, Ross, and others consistently weave in and out of the Hulk's life. Believe it or not, for the bulk of the Hulk's publishing history, Jen has not been a part of the Hulk's story! Oh, the Hulk is definitely part of hers--her origin depends on getting that blood transfusion, and she's been shown to adore Bruce, but this always seems to be a one-way street. Since Jen's debut in 1980, she's had relatively few guest-appearances in the main Hulk book until Greg Pak's run, where he really started to explore Jen as part of a larger Hulk dynamic.

I've been reading the Hulk since the early 80s, and I'm moderately weirded out by the notion of a Hulk legacy. Oh, I like Skaar and Lyra, and part of me would like to see the Hulk settle down with Betty and raise a little Hulk family. But only part of me. As a long-time reader, I also recognize that "loneliness" goes with the Hulk the way that webs go on Spidey. Happiness never seems to last for the character, he's miserable by default, and Peter David's run ended with the grim note that sadness and evil were an inevitable part of his future. It was the grim view of the character, but it also felt accurate.

My point is that likeable as Skaar and Lyra are (though beauty is in the eye of the beholder), their being the part of the Hulk's life--or his "legacy"--is a bit forced. If we're going to allow the Hulk to have a son and a daughter (though I'd note that as a legacy, Lyra really is written more like Jen's kid than Bruce's. She just does *not* get along with her dad.), then it's not too much of a stretch for him to have an evil twin who's also his oldest enemy. The "grim counterpart" is a common and valid trope among superheroes. Batman had Azrael, Spider-Man had Venom (or Kaine as the Scarlet Spider), I'm sure there are others. Hulk can have Ross, and people liked Ross.

Of course, Ross and Skaar have both been shelved, and Lyra...we'll find out what happened to her soon, I guess. So the debate over whether Skaar or Ross is more popular (though Ross carried a book and Skaar only carried a mini, so come on...) is kind of moot.

[Inertia]

Bye bye, Rulk!

The Incredible Hulk is the alpha and the omega.

[TheStrongestOne]

I don't think one can objectively say whether Ross is or isn't part of the Hulk's supposed "legacy." For better or worse, the Hulk as a character constantly vascillates between having a supporting cast and not having one. Betty, Rick, Ross, and others consistently weave in and out of the Hulk's life. Believe it or not, for the bulk of the Hulk's publishing history, Jen has not been a part of the Hulk's story! Oh, the Hulk is definitely part of hers--her origin depends on getting that blood transfusion, and she's been shown to adore Bruce, but this always seems to be a one-way street. Since Jen's debut in 1980, she's had relatively few guest-appearances in the main Hulk book until Greg Pak's run, where he really started to explore Jen as part of a larger Hulk dynamic.

I've been reading the Hulk since the early 80s, and I'm moderately weirded out by the notion of a Hulk legacy. Oh, I like Skaar and Lyra, and part of me would like to see the Hulk settle down with Betty and raise a little Hulk family. But only part of me. As a long-time reader, I also recognize that "loneliness" goes with the Hulk the way that webs go on Spidey. Happiness never seems to last for the character, he's miserable by default, and Peter David's run ended with the grim note that sadness and evil were an inevitable part of his future. It was the grim view of the character, but it also felt accurate.

My point is that likeable as Skaar and Lyra are (though beauty is in the eye of the beholder), their being the part of the Hulk's life--or his "legacy"--is a bit forced. If we're going to allow the Hulk to have a son and a daughter (though I'd note that as a legacy, Lyra really is written more like Jen's kid than Bruce's. She just does *not* get along with her dad.), then it's not too much of a stretch for him to have an evil twin who's also his oldest enemy. The "grim counterpart" is a common and valid trope among superheroes. Batman had Azrael, Spider-Man had Venom (or Kaine as the Scarlet Spider), I'm sure there are others. Hulk can have Ross, and people liked Ross.

Of course, Ross and Skaar have both been shelved, and Lyra...we'll find out what happened to her soon, I guess. So the debate over whether Skaar or Ross is more popular (though Ross carried a book and Skaar only carried a mini, so come on...) is kind of moot.

Extremely well said.

What I might add is the meaning of "legacy" does not have a requirement or stipulation of blood heritage... and therefore Ross.. as Bruce's one-time girlfriend's father, father of the bride, father-in-law and greatest enemy (and the events that occured between the two) surely qualifies and justifies a place in said legacy.

[xcoijoi]

Well, Green Lantern might be an exception because he is supposed to be one member of a whole large police force, so I guess it's natural to have other Green Lantern (I do find dificult to swallow that out of all planets in this infinite universe, many of them without a representative in the corps, there are 5 or 6 members from this little mudball Earth, and all of them are American). But I do think that anything that makes a character less unique and original weakens him. Take for instance Superman. Pre COIE, the "last son of Krypton" was as unique as fish in the sea, with super-boys, girls, babies, dogs, cats, monkeys, horses, criminals, an enlarged ciity tiny survivors and so on... Added that to the "super-everything as was required", Superman was never really in my must read list. Mostly read him in Justice League (though I did take an occasional peak in the Wolfman/Kane run that came shortly before COIE). Then came in John Byrne, and did a hell of a lot more than trim the fat. Superman went back to being unique and truely "THE LAST SON OF KRYPTON". There was no one else around like him, and that made the character sooooo much more interesting. Plus, creators really had to be creative when bringing back proprieties that had been erased by the universal change. Supergirl was now an other-dimensional artificial being. Superboy was an attempt of cloning Kryptonian DNA, merging it with human. Krypto was actually a normal dog belonging to one of Superman's greatest fans. The Phantom Zone criminals were from another dimension, and so on... Of course, as has been mentioned here, comics seem to move in circles, so it all eventually got brought back in one way or another, and Superman went back to being just another face in a large crowd of Kryptonians (I honestly have to confess that I have no idea what's it like now after the New 52. I know a Kryptonian Supergilrl is around, but not much else).
I do find interesting the angle of Ross becoming a monster like the one he always hunted, however I find a "RED Hulk" really unoriginal. Couldn't they have given him a different design and called him Red Zone, Condition Red, Defcon 1 or something else? However, as I've said, comics go in circles (nowadays, it seems, more than ever, with writers and editors not giving a crap to what the previous writers did and changing everything to suit the story he WANTS to tell, so that the next can come along and do the same, and the next, and so on...), so I guess someone will one day bring back Red Hulk Ross and maybe even the others...

Peace

Ain't over yet. They haven't given us a Green Ross, yet. Or a Grey Betty.

[GreenScar1990]

Personally, I consider Ross and the Army to be Banner/Hulk's greatest annoyance. Abomination is probably Hulk's greatest physical enemy. And the Leader is the greatest enemy of Banner/Hulk. However, it could be argued that Banner/Hulk are their own greatest enemy. I always like that Jekyll and Hyde concept.

[whiterabbit]

I disagree, if you don't like Red Hulk that's fine, don't buy the book. Everyone likes different characters, it's subjective. Red Hulk's solo book was amazing and lasted 57 issues! That's way more then a lot of the current books on the market today. Rulks time on the Avengers was great. Thunderbolts was hit-or-miss; he had some great moments.

I hated Ross in the past, but he went through a LOT of character growth and becoming my favorite. Red Hulk's book was way more interesting then Aaron's run on Hulk IMO.



Agreed! Omega Hulk is a tragedy. I'm guessing that Marvel just didn't know what to do with them; whatever happened to the House of Ideas? This series just reduced the amount of readers who were fans of: A-Bomb, Skaar, Red She-Hulk, Lyra, and now Red Hulk.



Agreed! Doc Green is a Marty Stu, he succeeded in everything that he planned with little conflict. He's the smartest one there is, and the strongest one there is. There is nothing inspiring nor compelling about the character and Duggan still hasn't explained Doc Green's motivation for removing his friends and family.

I wouldn't say it lasted 57 issues. The book featured Hulk till around issue #24 and then became about Jeff Parker using General Ross.

[Kurolegacy]

I wouldn't say it lasted 57 issues. The book featured Hulk till around issue #24 and then became about Jeff Parker using General Ross.

Even in that case, Rulk still managed to keep the book alive for most of its life, holding it for 33 issues which is very impressive in today's fickle market.

[Warstory]

First off, I'll say that I've always hated the idea of multiple Hulks. Multiple of anything weakens the uniqueness of the original. It really can't be argued otherwise. Before the Hulk family popped up, characters talked about "the Hulk." Afterwards, they talked about "hulks" or "a hulk." Half the time when he was an Avenger, Ross was straight up called "Hulk." Not Red Hulk. Hulk. It was downright disrespectful. Then you had The Incredible Hulks book where A-Bomb and Korg get called hulks. Why? Because now all Hulk means is that you're super strong and primary colored. By the time we got that issue where Doc Samson's ghost called himself a hulk, I was beyond done with the idea.

I'm not ever gonna get started on the Gamma Corp. The only reason i was mad at Doc Green for de-powering them was because it meant that I was forced to acknowledge their existence one more time.

Look, I have no problem with gamma villains. In fact, I wish there were more of them. But the old concept of gamma transformation, the idea that it transformed you based on your inner vision of yourself, is long dead. Either that or everyone's inner vision is exactly like Banner's.

All that said:
1) I loved Parker's Red Hulk book because he's a great writer, but as far as I was concerned it was a bad premise that was executed masterfully.
2) Red Hulk hadn't been used as a foil for Banner since Loeb left the book. So the idea that he exists as some sort of enemy doesn't really work.
3) The only thing worse than making Ross a Hulk was making Betty one
4) I never liked the idea of She-Hulk either, but she stayed in her own corner of the Marvel U for decades so it was easy to ignore her.
5) Skarr and Lyra could have been great characters, but soon after they were introduced it seemed like the writers who got their hands on them went out of their way in order to make them as generic as possible.