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  1. #61
    Y'know. Pav's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurolegacy View Post
    Tell me about it. Between Marvel's sudden obsession with pandering to PC, the tumblr crowd and forcing things to resemble the movies as much as possible, the quality of the comics has really gone down in the past few years.
    I was waiting for the "Back in my day...!" to follow. Things were perfect then, weren't they? Everything was exactly how you wanted it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Songbird/Diamondback View Post
    Except we can't read much about b through d list anymore...
    I'm reading Silver Surfer (B list), Iron Fist (C list), and Spider-Gwen (D list), so... yes. You can read those types of characters. You just have to assume that the book won't last that long. Personally, I don't mind because then I get to go buy some other book. (But I keep myself to a low number of comics per month.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Quicksilverfan View Post
    it's really frustrating to read Marvel comics: character growth is non-existent.
    There is character growth in Silver Surfer, Iron Fist, and Spider-Gwen, so... no. Character growth isn't non-existent. You just have to know where to look if you don't care for "the illusion of change" - which personally, I don't even really mind.

    Change is a constant, people. Sometimes you like the change and sometimes you don't. You'd think that, being comic book fans, you'd realize that often the change comes full circle (even without complaining from fans!).

    Y'know what I do? I buy comics that look good. And then I read them. And then, sometimes I like them; sometimes I don't. I continue buying some of them, and others I don't. I feel no need to tear down the whole line, or the company, or wistfully wish for a past that no longer exists because, y'know, time moves forward.

    I hope Secret Wars is cool. If it's not, oh well. I'm very excited to read WEIRDWORLD, and maybe I'll buy some other comics too. If they're good: hooray! If not: oh well! And if SW creates long-lasting changes to the MU? I hope they're cool! And if not: oh well! And if Marvel doesn't keep its promise that SW will have long-lasting ramifications? OH. WELL.

    Regardless, I'll keep finding comics that I enjoy reading.

    -Pav, who loves continuity as much as others, if not moreso...
    2020 Marvel Monthly Buys: Morbius Runaways (Giant-Sized) X-Men X-Force Marauders New Mutants Excalibur Strange Academy Agents of Wakanda
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  2. #62
    Astonishing Member RobinFan4880's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Of Orphans View Post

    To be fair, none of those books have ever gotten the marketing push GotG or Spider-Gwen have gotten for example. And Scarlet Spider and Venom were both relatively successful.
    I think Angela and Loki both received a fair amount of advertising, especially amongst the comic buying community and neither of those books proved stunningly popular. I am still not sold on Spider-Gwen becoming a long-term character. The farther we get from Amazing Spider-Man 2 (where Gwen was really popular) and the farther we get from the Spider-verse event (where Spider-Gwen was introduced), the less popular she will become. I just see Silk as having a larger, more lasting impact on the world of Spider-Man (but I hope I am wrong and both become mainstays of his corner of the MCU).

    Quote Originally Posted by Dog View Post
    GUARDIANS

    OF

    THE

    GALAXY

    Regularly Marvel's third-highest selling ongoing title.
    Fair point. I should have said almost every time. The existence and popularity of the Guardians does not disprove what has happened with other titles. Additionally, we have yet to see if the Guardians can survive Bendis leaving, since he carries with him such a large fanbase.

    Plus, let's be honest here, Team books are easier to sell than solo books because you are combining the fanbses for each character into one pool of potential buyers. Additionally, Guardians had a movie that was wildly popular, which drove interest in the comic and the characters.

    You are taking a grade-A writer and combining him with a team book starring cult favorite characters and getting a tangential boost from a movie - and - altering the characters so they more closely resemble the movie incarnations and crossing Guardians over with X-Men several times to help cross-pollinate fanbases AND adding a rotating Avenger character to the book.

    That is the way to build interest into a b-list concept. This is something Marvel simply does not do with many other b-list properties (nor can it since you can only make so many movies starring brand new/under-used characters).

  3. #63

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    You elevate B-Listers by placing them on equal footing and importance with A-Listers in the stories. Perhaps someone else can become the leader of Avengers for a while and have editorial actually commit to that long term. Maybe have Steve, Thor and Tony respect the new leader as the true leader and run with it. That's just a small example.

  4. #64
    Astonishing Member RobinFan4880's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveAtThee View Post
    You elevate B-Listers by placing them on equal footing and importance with A-Listers in the stories. Perhaps someone else can become the leader of Avengers for a while and have editorial actually commit to that long term. Maybe have Steve, Thor and Tony respect the new leader as the true leader and run with it. That's just a small example.
    They tried that with Havok in Uncanny Avengers. It was controversial and was not nearly as successful as many hoped it would be.

  5. #65
    Astonishing Member Overhazard's Avatar
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    What I don't understand is how Alonso can say something like that and then say secret wars isn't a reboot. I just want some clarification, not all this vague, hint-dropping, teasing junk.

  6. #66
    Astonishing Member Of Atlantis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobinFan4880 View Post
    I think Angela and Loki both received a fair amount of advertising, especially amongst the comic buying community and neither of those books proved stunningly popular. I am still not sold on Spider-Gwen becoming a long-term character. The farther we get from Amazing Spider-Man 2 (where Gwen was really popular) and the farther we get from the Spider-verse event (where Spider-Gwen was introduced), the less popular she will become. I just see Silk as having a larger, more lasting impact on the world of Spider-Man (but I hope I am wrong and both become mainstays of his corner of the MCU).
    Angela appeared in GotG, briefly, and did receive a good push, but that title isn't doing badly considering she's brand new to the Marvel universe. It took her randomly being revealed as Thor's sister to get that kind of attention though. It simmered down quickly, but the book itself is doing relatively well. As for Loki, I'll have to disagree with you there, I think Marvel slacked with the advertising of that book and let it ride the coattails of the movie's popularity a bit too exclusively.

    I don't think it's a stretch to say that Spider-Gwen exceeded any and all expectations since her debut. I definitely think she's in it for the long run. She already has an abnormally dedicated fanbase and an entire month of variant covers for her in June plus another title during Secret Wars. If anything, she's in danger of becoming overexposed.
    Currently Reading: DC: Shazam /// MARVEL: Daredevil, Invaders, Winter Soldier /// IMAGE: Seven to Eternity /// TITAN: Bloodborne

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  7. #67
    Astonishing Member RobinFan4880's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Of Orphans View Post
    Angela appeared in GotG, briefly, and did receive a good push, but that title isn't doing badly considering she's brand new to the Marvel universe. It took her randomly being revealed as Thor's sister to get that kind of attention though. It simmered down quickly, but the book itself is doing relatively well. As for Loki, I'll have to disagree with you there, I think Marvel slacked with the advertising of that book and let it ride the coattails of the movie's popularity a bit too exclusively.

    I don't think it's a stretch to say that Spider-Gwen exceeded any and all expectations since her debut. I definitely think she's in it for the long run. She already has an abnormally dedicated fanbase and an entire month of variant covers for her in June plus another title during Secret Wars. If anything, she's in danger of becoming overexposed.
    Maybe I just don't get Spider-Gwen. She doesn't seem nearly as interesting as Silk, at least to me. I can understand people liking her visual ascetic but as we saw with Angela, that doesn't always translate into a solidly selling series or any thing long term. What does the fanbase have to go off of? A few scant scenes in a large event and two or three issues of a solo series? It hardly seems like enough to generate fervor and passion that will last for years and years.

    As for success, I think there are different metrics for how you judge success. Sales wise, I think if a series is canceled prematurely, it was a failure. If it only manages to sell around 25-30k a book once that "new book smell" is long gone, then it will constantly be grappling with its own impending cancellation due to readers drifting away. To me a real success is a title that can manage 40k+ a month. That definitely does cut a lot of series out of being "hugely successful" but if you look at the solo titles selling 40k+ a month, they are the mainstays of the comic book industry. If you can squeeze into the 25-35k a month category, then I think you could be labeled a success for a solo title but you will always have to grapple with the threat of cancellation as one bad story arc could easily doom your comic.



    Quote Originally Posted by Overhazard View Post
    What I don't understand is how Alonso can say something like that and then say secret wars isn't a reboot. I just want some clarification, not all this vague, hint-dropping, teasing junk.
    Its a reboot.

    No one can say reboot any more so you have to read between the lines.

    The question then becomes how hard/soft is the reboot going to be?

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dog View Post
    They were Z-list before the movie. Now they suck because they're popular? What happens when every character is in a movie or TV show? Will every character be "A list"? And then what? Will we complain that no one writes about Jack of Hearts?
    Z list? Hardly! DNA Guardians was fantastic. But now the series is just a joke that monkies the film

  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pav View Post
    I was waiting for the "Back in my day...!" to follow. Things were perfect then, weren't they? Everything was exactly how you wanted it.



    I'm reading Silver Surfer (B list), Iron Fist (C list), and Spider-Gwen (D list), so... yes. You can read those types of characters. You just have to assume that the book won't last that long. Personally, I don't mind because then I get to go buy some other book. (But I keep myself to a low number of comics per month.)



    There is character growth in Silver Surfer, Iron Fist, and Spider-Gwen, so... no. Character growth isn't non-existent. You just have to know where to look if you don't care for "the illusion of change" - which personally, I don't even really mind.

    Change is a constant, people. Sometimes you like the change and sometimes you don't. You'd think that, being comic book fans, you'd realize that often the change comes full circle (even without complaining from fans!).

    Y'know what I do? I buy comics that look good. And then I read them. And then, sometimes I like them; sometimes I don't. I continue buying some of them, and others I don't. I feel no need to tear down the whole line, or the company, or wistfully wish for a past that no longer exists because, y'know, time moves forward.

    I hope Secret Wars is cool. If it's not, oh well. I'm very excited to read WEIRDWORLD, and maybe I'll buy some other comics too. If they're good: hooray! If not: oh well! And if SW creates long-lasting changes to the MU? I hope they're cool! And if not: oh well! And if Marvel doesn't keep its promise that SW will have long-lasting ramifications? OH. WELL.

    Regardless, I'll keep finding comics that I enjoy reading.

    -Pav, who loves continuity as much as others, if not moreso...
    Spidergwen is more popular than both Silver Surfer and Iron Fist right now. She is high B.

  10. #70
    Astonishing Member Of Atlantis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobinFan4880 View Post
    Maybe I just don't get Spider-Gwen. She doesn't seem nearly as interesting as Silk, at least to me. I can understand people liking her visual ascetic but as we saw with Angela, that doesn't always translate into a solidly selling series or any thing long term. What does the fanbase have to go off of? A few scant scenes in a large event and two or three issues of a solo series? It hardly seems like enough to generate fervor and passion that will last for years and years.
    I don't get Spider-Gwen either. I think she's massively overrated given how little she's done but it's been getting commercial praise and is talked about non-stop on social media. Her book is selling ridiculously well for a "new" character and it seems she has the "it" factor.

    Quote Originally Posted by RobinFan4880 View Post
    As for success, I think there are different metrics for how you judge success. Sales wise, I think if a series is canceled prematurely, it was a failure. If it only manages to sell around 25-30k a book once that "new book smell" is long gone, then it will constantly be grappling with its own impending cancellation due to readers drifting away. To me a real success is a title that can manage 40k+ a month. That definitely does cut a lot of series out of being "hugely successful" but if you look at the solo titles selling 40k+ a month, they are the mainstays of the comic book industry. If you can squeeze into the 25-35k a month category, then I think you could be labeled a success for a solo title but you will always have to grapple with the threat of cancellation as one bad story arc could easily doom your comic.
    I agree with the majority of what you've said here. Maybe ten years ago, consistently selling 40k+ would be considered a success, but now I'd definitely put a successful book into the 25-30k range as well. It's a shame since the cancellation line is still drawn at 20k. I think that's a bit too high in this day and age.

    I think one aspect of success we should also consider is how well a book is expected to do vs. how they actually do. Books like Spider-Gwen, Venom and Hawkeye all exceeded expectations in sales. They all went to second and even third printings. Compare that to the recent Uncanny Avengers #1 spinning out of Axis, selling around 80k I think (last volume sold 140k) and I would say that book started off on some poor footing.
    Currently Reading: DC: Shazam /// MARVEL: Daredevil, Invaders, Winter Soldier /// IMAGE: Seven to Eternity /// TITAN: Bloodborne

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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Songbird/Diamondback View Post
    Z list? Hardly! DNA Guardians was fantastic.
    Its sales were still in the basement. And many seasoned comic readers didn't even know who they were when the movie was announced. I saw plenty of people asking why they were putting Charlie 27 in a film.
    I write about the intersection of science, comics and culture. Check it out!

  12. #72
    Incredible Member Marvel Forever's Avatar
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    Could this really be the end of the Fantastic Four characters?

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvel Forever View Post
    Could this really be the end of the Fantastic Four characters?
    The characters? No.

    The book? Temporarily? Maybe. Although C.B. Cebulski has said there will be a Fantastic Four book, he didn't exactly say when.
    I write about the intersection of science, comics and culture. Check it out!

  14. #74
    More eldritch than thou Venomous Mask's Avatar
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    "Everything you know about Marvel Comics is about to change for the next three years before the status quo is restored."
    "I should describe my known nature as tripartite, my interests consisting of three parallel and disassociated groups; a) love of the strange and the fantastic, b) love of abstract truth and scientific logic, c) love of the ancient and the permanent. Sundry combinations of these strains will probably account for my...odd tastes, and eccentricities."

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dog View Post
    They were Z-list before the movie. Now they suck because they're popular? What happens when every character is in a movie or TV show? Will every character be "A list"? And then what? Will we complain that no one writes about Jack of Hearts?
    The fact is, you can't have ONLY A-Listers. That's not how it works. Not everyone likes the same things, and even then, there are just concepts that are more popular than others, and that constantly changes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marvel Forever View Post
    Could this really be the end of the Fantastic Four characters?
    I think the general feeling is that a Fantastic Four book just isn't working right now. However, we have Dr. Doom as King of Battleworld, and Reed Richards and Susan Storm and their kids have already been involved in Secret Wars. If Marvel/Disney really didn't want them involved, then they wouldn't be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venomous Mask View Post
    "Everything you know about Marvel Comics is about to change for the next three years before the status quo is restored."
    I give it 5 years.

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