Convergence confusion

[MajorHoy]

I'd say DC set up a basic framework and then let the writers and artists do their thing without getting anal about the continuity.

If only the internal continuity made more sense . . .

[NeonZ]

Not, strictly speaking, misused, no. It's artistic license. The 70s font was used because they wanted to use it, and to justify it they began the end of issue recap with that period. But it's not representative of the period, and as such is misleading.

This is what it should look like

Attachment 21531

I do appreciate the aesthetics. I also understand that so far, the logic is to only use periods that experienced a cataclysmic retcon, so this is really the only way to reference the 70s. Unless, of course, you can accept the logic that a crisis could have hit other universes in periods other than the ones that got hit in the mainstream DCU. Which I do.

And even though they have already indicated otherwise, this story could be read as coming from the 70s. There is nothing in the story itself other than a few parked cars to contradict that. So they're married. A year is a long time to be grounded, right? Trap Di and Steve together, and what excuse do they have not to tie the knot?

That makes more sense to me. Because I appreciate the aesthetics.

Just saying. I don't think they thought this one through to its logical conclusion.

Diana wasn't powerless when the dome appeared though. She also immediately recovers her powers and changes outfit once the dome is lifted. They clearly wanted to homage that earlier period, but continuity-wise, it doesn't take place there. They homaged the past without damaging the continuity they were supposed to be following.

You say that Diana should look like that? But she pretty much does once she recovers her powers and throws away the white outfit.

[Master X]

I'd say DC set up a basic framework and then let the writers and artists do their thing without getting anal about the continuity.

Which is bad enough, but the internal consistency/continuity of the event between titles is just...hilariously awful.

[thetrellan]

Diana wasn't powerless when the dome appeared though. She also immediately recovers her powers and changes outfit once the dome is lifted. They clearly wanted to homage that earlier period, but continuity-wise, it doesn't take place there. They homaged the past without damaging the continuity they were supposed to be following.

You say that Diana should look like that? But she pretty much does once she recovers her powers and throws away the white outfit.

Not Diana, no. The Wonder Woman logo.


I'll admit right now I didn't read the 70s storyline. I rarely found DC comics appealing at the time. But the 70s logo ended in '72. I figure her powers must have returned then, and assumed while reading the story that the dome went up not much later. Then I read the recap at the end. What bothers me is that, considering the nature of the premise, they could have easily set the tale in the period suggested, and the only thing stopping them was keeping up the appearance of having plucked each of the cities from actual continuity, rather than the alternate realities they actually came from. But that really leads to the appearance of inconsistency, the opposite effect they were looking for. Surely a Crisis that hit the 1980s as well as the 2980s could and would have also hit an infinite number of 1970s universes too.

After all, the evidence suggests that most of the cities came from the Earths the didn't survive the Crisis on Infinite Earths. Just so you get my logic. That multiverse was infinite. Zero Hour officially only had one Earth, Flashpoint just 52. But for the infinite multiverse, a Crisis on one Earth could actually have been preceded by, say, a Flashpoint in a more advanced timeline.

Of course, that route could lead to even more confusion.

[Conway]

Which is bad enough, but the internal consistency/continuity of the event between titles is just...hilariously awful.

The thing that is hilariously painful about this is how many times I've seen that %#@$ing dome come down, like it was a new action scene.

[thetrellan]

Which is bad enough, but the internal consistency/continuity of the event between titles is just...hilariously awful.

There is no internal consistency to maintain. Most, if not all, of the spinoffs take place in completely different cities.

The thing that is hilariously painful about this is how many times I've seen that %#@$ing dome come down, like it was a new action scene.

It is. Although the lyrics are the same, each audience sees it differently. In one, a building actually morphed into Telos. Telos's speech is actually the only true consistency to maintain. What's important about it is seeing how it hits different players. Though I find myself wishing Telos had kept his speech down to one or two sentences.

[colonyofcells]

Within each week, there is some consistency. In the 4th week, the red son characters appeared in 2 titles. Hector Hall also appeared in the JSA title. Qward will fight both JSA and the soldiers of victory. The Paul Levitz Legion is in the 3rd week Legion title and also the 4th week Booster Gold title.

[NeonZ]

There is no internal consistency to maintain. Most, if not all, of the spinoffs take place in completely different cities.

There are some consistency issues sometimes, but most comics in the first three weeks, from the titular heroes side, all supposed to take place in a single city for each week. The Pre-Flashpoint Gotham seen in Superman is supposed to be the same one shown in Speed Force. The seemingly peaceful Gotham from Titans is supposed to be the same crime filled Gotham shown in Question, in spite of how different their portrayals seem to be. The Pre-Zero Hour Metropolis shown in Shadow of the Bat is supposed to be the same one from Superboy. That's why the heroes often end up in rather weird cities for them in the first place, since they wanted the first three weeks to focus on only on city each one. The only exception in Week 3 is Legion, which takes place in future Metropolis, rather than 1985 Pre-Crisis Earth-1 Gotham.

Only Week 4 features a bunch of different cities from the side of the titular heroes, and even then you've still got a bunch of titles (Action Comics, Infinity Inc, JSA, Detective Comics) taking place in what's supposed to be the same Earth-2 Metropolis.

That's also why Wonder Woman couldn't be taken from that early period, and those were just homages to it, since the other Earth-1 characters are all from significantly later.

[thetrellan]

There are some consistency issues sometimes, but most comics in the first three weeks, from the titular heroes side, all supposed to take place in a single city for each week. The Pre-Flashpoint Gotham seen in Superman is supposed to be the same one shown in Speed Force. The seemingly peaceful Gotham from Titans is supposed to be the same crime filled Gotham shown in Question, in spite of how different their portrayals seem to be. The Pre-Zero Hour Metropolis shown in Shadow of the Bat is supposed to be the same one from Superboy. That's why the heroes often end up in rather weird cities for them in the first place, since they wanted the first three weeks to focus on only on city each one. The only exception in Week 3 is Legion, which takes place in future Metropolis, rather than 1985 Pre-Crisis Earth-1 Gotham.

Only Week 4 features a bunch of different cities from the side of the titular heroes, and even then you've still got a bunch of titles (Action Comics, Infinity Inc, JSA, Detective Comics) taking place in what's supposed to be the same Earth-2 Metropolis.

That's also why Wonder Woman couldn't be taken from that early period, and those were just homages to it, since the other Earth-1 characters are all from significantly later.

But it makes no sense whatsoever for so many heroes to be visiting Gotham at once. There is no headquarters there, no JLA meeting houses. And no tourist attraction. I know there was a crisis going on, but all the superheroes in the world would not just suddenly gather in Gotham and Metropolis. Especially if Superman and Supergirl are both in Gotham. Besides, Telos said there were many Metropolises, many Gothams. Why would the focus stay on just one of each?

And why would the writers expect us to have read about the story in order to understand what is going on?

Ah well, but it's as I said: the story wasn't thought through because it doesn't bear up to close scrutiny. Barry Allen couldn't get trapped in Gotham at the end of CIE because he was too busy dying, and the whole red skies thing was understood by too many heroes who had actually fought the Anti-Monitor to be the mystery it is here. Not to mention the simple fact that Brainiac never invaded at those times, and even if he did, his process is pretty much the opposite of stealthy. The cities should actually know they were taken by him. So it's not Brainiac's m.o. and the cities can't actually have been plucked from "real" DCU history.

Still, you never know. These things may yet resolve themselves. La senora gorda hath not yet sung her song.

[Master X]

There is no internal consistency to maintain. Most, if not all, of the spinoffs take place in completely different cities.

It is. Although the lyrics are the same, each audience sees it differently. In one, a building actually morphed into Telos. Telos's speech is actually the only true consistency to maintain. What's important about it is seeing how it hits different players. Though I find myself wishing Telos had kept his speech down to one or two sentences.

...are you joking? The internal consistency is way off. You are aware that each week has ONE city versus the others, right? Week one is the same pre-flashpoint city in ALL ten issues, week two all ten are Zero Hour, week three pre-crisis... One city for each week. Not a separate city for each character...they're sharing the city across that week's issues...and the continuity/consistency between them is bad. Telos speech...does not maintain consistency, they actually get it wrong in at least one issue, too.

I was making a list (it's quite big anyway), it's missing inconsistencies since I didn't start straight away, but my OCD bugged me into it. It's not like I'm looking, but some are glaringly obvious especially if you're reading them one after another. Recent one (over a week behind) is the fact pre-crisis has TWO Bruce Wayne's. Bruce in Outsiders is awoken in suit when Telos talks, while in Flash minutes before Telos speaks he's having breakfast with Barry as Bruce. JLA, they all start their battles late because they have breakfast, and Martian Manhunter, most powerful telepath on Earth do a scan and find no battles, no hostile enemies, not even other cities despite the fact all other battles have begun.

[Master X]

But it makes no sense whatsoever for so many heroes to be visiting Gotham at once. There is no headquarters there, no JLA meeting houses. And no tourist attraction. I know there was a crisis going on, but all the superheroes in the world would not just suddenly gather in Gotham and Metropolis. Especially if Superman and Supergirl are both in Gotham. Besides, Telos said there were many Metropolises, many Gothams. Why would the focus stay on just one of each?

And why would the writers expect us to have read about the story in order to understand what is going on?

Ah well, but it's as I said: the story wasn't thought through because it doesn't bear up to close scrutiny. Barry Allen couldn't get trapped in Gotham at the end of CIE because he was too busy dying, and the whole red skies thing was understood by too many heroes who had actually fought the Anti-Monitor to be the mystery it is here. Not to mention the simple fact that Brainiac never invaded at those times, and even if he did, his process is pretty much the opposite of stealthy. The cities should actually know they were taken by him. So it's not Brainiac's m.o. and the cities can't actually have been plucked from "real" DCU history.

Still, you never know. These things may yet resolve themselves. La senora gorda hath not yet sung her song.

The only one actually explained (why they're all there at once) is pre-flashpoint, as they're all there in Gotham investigating some sort of flashpoint Barry Allen energy thingy mi bob. The actual Flashpoint city is one that makes zero sense why they're all together...and for a whole year at that.

[thetrellan]

...are you joking? The internal consistency is way off. You are aware that each week has ONE city versus the others, right? Week one is the same pre-flashpoint city in ALL ten issues, week two all ten are Zero Hour, week three pre-crisis... One city for each week. Not a separate city for each character...they're sharing the city across that week's issues...and the continuity/consistency between them is bad. Telos speech...does not maintain consistency, they actually get it wrong in at least one issue, too.

I was making a list (it's quite big anyway), it's missing inconsistencies since I didn't start straight away, but my OCD bugged me into it. It's not like I'm looking, but some are glaringly obvious especially if you're reading them one after another. Recent one (over a week behind) is the fact pre-crisis has TWO Bruce Wayne's. Bruce in Outsiders is awoken in suit when Telos talks, while in Flash minutes before Telos speaks he's having breakfast with Barry as Bruce. JLA, they all start their battles late because they have breakfast, and Martian Manhunter, most powerful telepath on Earth do a scan and find no battles, no hostile enemies, not even other cities despite the fact all other battles have begun.

Sorry, but I'm only reading the stories and making connections as I go. As you say, the cities are pairing off for matches, so when one Earth 2 Superman or Robin ends up in Moscow to confront the Red Son, I naturally conclude they are inhabiting a different Metropolis than the one whose Infinity Inc. square off against Jonah Hex and his post-cataclysmic buddies from "Hex". As far as I can tell, the only way of identifying which heroes come from the same city is by the city they are supposed to fight.

So sure, the tie-ins that didn't feature Booster this week all focused on Earth 2 heroes living in Metropolis, but the evidence says they are not all set in the same Metropolis.

Maybe that was the plan in the beginning. Plans rarely survive implementation fully intact, though, and this is true in writing as in anything else. Cause it's like I said, these heroes can't be the ones who took part in CIE at least. Those heroes knew what was happening. The red skies weren't a mystery to them. And the Flash died. He didn't get trapped in Gotham, he was busy dying. These inconsistencies can be explained by simply saying that some are from different universes even though they appear to be from just one.

I don't know what to do about the fact that Brainiac has suddenly discovered how to steal cities stealthily. It's not his m.o. at all. I'm thinking maybe another force is in play. Perhaps an ultimate ultimate Brainiac.

[Master X]

Sorry, but I'm only reading the stories and making connections as I go. As you say, the cities are pairing off for matches, so when one Earth 2 Superman or Robin ends up in Moscow to confront the Red Son, I naturally conclude they are inhabiting a different Metropolis than the one whose Infinity Inc. square off against Jonah Hex and his post-cataclysmic buddies from "Hex". As far as I can tell, the only way of identifying which heroes come from the same city is by the city they are supposed to fight.

So sure, the tie-ins that didn't feature Booster this week all focused on Earth 2 heroes living in Metropolis, but the evidence says they are not all set in the same Metropolis.

Maybe that was the plan in the beginning. Plans rarely survive implementation fully intact, though, and this is true in writing as in anything else. Cause it's like I said, these heroes can't be the ones who took part in CIE at least. Those heroes knew what was happening. The red skies weren't a mystery to them. And the Flash died. He didn't get trapped in Gotham, he was busy dying. These inconsistencies can be explained by simply saying that some are from different universes even though they appear to be from just one.

I don't know what to do about the fact that Brainiac has suddenly discovered how to steal cities stealthily. It's not his m.o. at all. I'm thinking maybe another force is in play. Perhaps an ultimate ultimate Brainiac.

Well yeah, week four is different since the let's say "base city" is meant to be different for quite a few issues (week four is like a pick 'n' mix, haven't got to it yet). But week one's ten issues is really meant be the same base city versus the other alternate ones, week two base city is its own same city for its ten issues and so on... Did they originally intend as you say for EVERY issues characters to be a separate base city...? It would make the amount of inconsistency make some sense, of course. But then again, this is DC. Read the beginning blurb and it literally tells you WHAT city it is. You know what city is what because it tells you. (I wonder how Marvel is doing with their similar event's intenal consistency...?) But then there's Swamp Thing connecting to The Green in his issue while in the main issue of Convergence there is no green for Earth 2 Green Lantern to connect to because Telos is the planet.

[thetrellan]

Well yeah, week four is different since the let's say "base city" is meant to be different for quite a few issues (week four is like a pick 'n' mix, haven't got to it yet). But week one's ten issues is really meant be the same base city versus the other alternate ones, week two base city is its own same city for its ten issues and so on... Did they originally intend as you say for EVERY issues characters to be a separate base city...? It would make the amount of inconsistency make some sense, of course. But then again, this is DC. Read the beginning blurb and it literally tells you WHAT city it is. You know what city is what because it tells you. (I wonder how Marvel is doing with their similar event's intenal consistency...?) But then there's Swamp Thing connecting to The Green in his issue while in the main issue of Convergence there is no green for Earth 2 Green Lantern to connect to because Telos is the planet.

I really have no idea what they originally intended. I didn't even pay attention to the blurbs. They looked like ads to me. But when I read them things get even more confusing. The one at the beginning of CIE Teen Titans has five cities in a circle with a big VS. in the middle. Not only can I not make out what it means, but the LSH is nowhere to be found while the city they are supposed to be pitted against is. So it seems like the more rules I find, the worse the continuity becomes because the writers of the spinoffs don't really know what's going on. Plus my record is getting a nice groove gouged into it and keeps screeching They really didn't think this one through.

Unless, of course, it turns out that there is more than one Durvale or 30th century Metropolis.

[Ravyn]

There is no paradox since it is possible to pluck out an infinite number of Supermen from different points in time and from different universes. There could also be an infinite number of universes that look like the old pre coie earth 1.

Yeah, this is how I'm reading the story as well. These are all alternate-universe versions of the characters I read and loved for so many years. (Just as the new 52 versions are as well.)

It'll make it sting a bit less when the majority of them get murdered to death.

It's definitely been a bittersweet reading experience. Nice to see some of these characters again and I'm loving the creative teams on the books - but it sure is a bummer watching heroes die. But that's what DC Comics has always been all about.