Calculations in Marvel's Diversity

[ed2962]

The sad thing is that this nostalgia does not only apply to comics. I can name dozens of other long-running media franchises or incarnations that fall victim to the same thing or else have its share of nostalgic nuts who have a gut-reaction to hating everything new like a bunch of old geezers.

I can't personally chime into this diversity thing because I don't feel I'm knowledgeable enough on the subject and I don't want to sound like jackass. But I do want to mention about how I encountered one guy on another forum who argued that "The companies don't have do all this diversity stuff as long as the stories based around the established characters are continuously well-written."

Agree or disagree?

Well, it kinda implies that it's an either or situation...that you can have either good stories or diversity. There's no reason you can't have both. It also implies that anything well written will automatically be popular, and that's not always the case. Sometimes you have to promote the product. There's also an unfortunate "exclusivity" vibe to the statement...like it doesn't matter if some people want either different characters to read about or more representation, folks should just settle for the same old same old. Like, "take more of these Batman Wolverine comics and shut up..."

[leo619]

The sad thing is that this nostalgia does not only apply to comics. I can name dozens of other long-running media franchises or incarnations that fall victim to the same thing or else have its share of nostalgic nuts who have a gut-reaction to hating everything new like a bunch of old geezers.

I can't personally chime into this diversity thing because I don't feel I'm knowledgeable enough on the subject and I don't want to sound like jackass. But I do want to mention about how I encountered one guy on another forum who argued that "The companies don't have do all this diversity stuff as long as the stories based around the established characters are continuously well-written."

Agree or disagree?

Definitely Disagree, the "established characters" are still mostly white, due to the fact that they were mostly established at a time frame where minorities had to use separate bathrooms, hosed down, and bitten by dogs. This also continuously perpetrates the idea that WASP are the default and that all people have no problem just reading or watching about the default. The recent changes within the media regarding black casting, movies, and etc was meant to illustrate otherwise. To show that white being as the default and only acceptable forms of media consumption is no longer tolerable. The success of Empire becoming the biggest show on television was the latest stamp to illustrate such point. So yes, companies do need to do this stuff. But what they need to do, is provide continuously well written stories "while at the same time" focus on diversity. When you only focus on one or the other, you fail.

[McRantington]

I never said trivial - losing Mjolnir has obviously had a huge psychological impact - I refuted your statement that Thor's powers had been diminished significantly.

Umm, the word trivial is an antonym of the word significant.

Nevertheless, it has not been confirmed that she didn't read his mind on purpose, so I am once again going to post this sentence: 'Yes she was wrong to read his mind in his first place, she has spent this entire volume overstepping the boundaries of acceptable telepathy use, no one has ever endorsed it'

It has also not been confirmed that she didn't invade his mind and ripped out his sexuality. Yet your first reaction is well, she didn't mean to. I'm sure that stern finger wagging will get her to stop.

By which are you suggesting I am objectively wrong to be enjoying the current volume of Thor? I am not using being progressive as a shield for bad writing, I like the writing. Just because you don't enjoy something, does not automatically mean the writing is bad.

Opinions are not facts. My opinion that Aaron has done a crap job writing the female Thor is completely subjective. I supported my subjective opinion with the fact that femThor has been and continues to be a secondary character in her own book. For a book that's supposed to promote feminism, as clearly highlighted by the controversial panels from issue 4, having the title female character be reduced to a plot point in Thor Odinson's quest for redemption is again in my opinion bad writing.
If you like, I can go through one of your previous paragraphs and break down each sentence into which ones are facts and which ones are speculation/opinion. It may help you with your confusion.

[

You try and assert your opinion of someone's writing as incontrovertible fact, yet I'm the one who isn't open to different viewpoints? There is only one adequate response to that: LOL.

Hey, there you are confusing facts and opinions again. Guess which one a viewpoint is. Hint: viewpoints are not facts. LOL indeed.

[PwrdOn]

Marvel deserves some credit for trying to diversify their roster and bring in a wider audience, but we shouldn't forget that it really hasn't been all that long since they were regularly making comments like this:

I feel like we’ve got a social responsibility to feature characters of all kinds, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that those characters can or have to be headliners. That tends to be defined by the audience and the marketplace. If all of the fans crying for more series with female leads from all of the companies had supported all the ones that were done in the past, this circumstance wouldn’t exist. That said, that doesn’t change the responsibility, but ti[sic] may impact on the manner in which that responsibility plays itself out.

It's not like this is the first time that Marvel has tried to push its minority characters, it's more of a periodic event that they have no qualms going back on if it doesn't benefit sales (and it practically never does). And when there's no real commitment besides pure commercialism behind this kind of strategy, the actual product tends to suffer, since the expectation doesn't go beyond readers opening up their wallets when they see a familiar face on the cover.

[Mr MajestiK]

I almost feel bad now for starting this thread. Things went off the rails pretty fast. But, I have long believed that online, text-based, asynchronous communication is a terrible format for conversations like these -- so I shouldn't be surprised. You see how people just pick and choose what portions of someone else's thoughts they wish to respond to. Pick and choose which words to conveniently misinterpret.

I honestly wish we could all sit in a room over coffee, tea, beer, whatever..... perhaps some scones.... and talk. People would undoubtedly shout at each other for a while and some people would simply never be open to the concerns of others. But, ultimately, I think a lot of us would leave the room with a better understanding of one another and with a more cohesive sense of what we want Marvel to do in order to make the most people happy and stay in business.

But in formats like forums it's just dumb. I feel like some of you are genuinely of the same mind yet are fighting over trying to split the thinnest of hairs. *shrug* I'm sure I've done it too. Like I said, it's just not a good format for these kinds of talks, but, I don't have a better format to suggest so, I can't help but keep trying sometimes.

I want us all to work together towards being able to all enjoy comics. I want a forum like this to be a place where people are motivated to celebrate the stories they are reveling in and lend respectful, level-headed criticisms when they feel like it. Instead, it's just a mess. Easily 50% of the most popular threads are charged with some kind of social/political energy that just looks desperate to reach toxic levels as fast as possible. People think it's doing good, but, and of course it can do some good for individuals here and there. But, when I take a step back, when I look at "the long game" I think things are worse than a decade or even 2 decades ago.

When War Machine came out, he immediately became my favorite over Iron Man. And the only reason was because he was sooo coooool. I couldn't give a flying eff about the color of Rhodes' skin. As a 5th grader, in the 90s, I could make a choice about what I read without it being tallied as a reflection of who I am morally. These days, it just doesn't feel that way.

~~~

Personally, I don't know where I'm at with comics at the moment. I'm sick of wondering what hack job is going to happen to my favorite characters next. I can see it now, "The new Silver Surfer is a nightclub DJ!" I'm sick of knowing that even the most well-received book will start its numeration over again at #1 within the next year or two because its an easy cash grab. I'm sick of one "earth shattering" event after the other after the other after the other. And I'm sick of people trying to make me feel ashamed for preferring certain characters over others just because of gender/race/orientation. I'm sick of the double standards. You don't want Batgirl to look "out-of-character weak" on the cover of your favorite book? Fine. But then can I demand the same over this upcoming Daredevil cover? I know the answer is "no," so anyone feverishly typing up their "it's not the same!" response, you can relax. But, I find the reasons behind that answer are problematic at the moment.

So, yea, anyone want a scone?

Dude, you have nothing to feel bad about.

Thank you for starting such a thought provoking thread.

[Marvel_Is]

It hurts even more because the long-time fans are the ones who supported comic books. So they feel sold out and a little betrayed when they feel like nothing more than an emotional resource. Not because they have something against women and minorities, but because the method is DESIGNED to upset them. Not by challenging their beliefs about social issues, but by taking away something they enjoyed. It's the same backlash comic creators receive about new costume designs or when a character moves to a different city for lazy plot reasons, or their powers change for lazy reasons, or etc, etc.

This is my entire problem with this whole development.

I've been long-time reader because I like the medium and I like the publisher. When I'm forced to visualize and read about characters who were specifically created to add "diversity" it takes away partly from the enjoyment.

What further decreases my enjoyment is when people latch onto the diversity aspect alone and derail the storytelling so they can preach their views. It's a white noise that needs to stop.

Lastly, this is a medium where historically it's been about characters who solve problems with their fists - which I like! But, a lot of the diversity die-hards are essentially ruining the medium by wanting their chosen minority to be treated with kids gloves. That weakens the product by allowing individuals who don't respect the genre to dictate what should or should not happen to these characters.

[Marvell2100]

This is my entire problem with this whole development.

I've been long-time reader because I like the medium and I like the publisher. When I'm forced to visualize and read about characters who were specifically created to add "diversity" it takes away partly from the enjoyment.

What further decreases my enjoyment is when people latch onto the diversity aspect alone and derail the storytelling so they can preach their views. It's a white noise that needs to stop.

Lastly, this is a medium where historically it's been about characters who solve problems with their fists - which I like! But, a lot of the diversity die-hards are essentially ruining the medium by wanting their chosen minority to be treated with kids gloves. That weakens the product by allowing individuals who don't respect the genre to dictate what should or should not happen to these characters.

I've been a longtime reader too because I enjoy the publisher and the medium. I'm enjoying it even more because it's beginning to catch up with the rest of the world by becoming more diverse both in the books and on the creative side. My problem is when people see diversity as something that is a bad thing because it's being forced down someone's throat or it's an inauthentic, media driven, PR stunt to drive sales. That can be used to describe every major comicbook event in the past 15 year and these events featured very few minorities.

[ed2962]

This is my entire problem with this whole development.

I've been long-time reader because I like the medium and I like the publisher. When I'm forced to visualize and read about characters who were specifically created to add "diversity" it takes away partly from the enjoyment.

What further decreases my enjoyment is when people latch onto the diversity aspect alone and derail the storytelling so they can preach their views. It's a white noise that needs to stop.

Lastly, this is a medium where historically it's been about characters who solve problems with their fists - which I like! But, a lot of the diversity die-hards are essentially ruining the medium by wanting their chosen minority to be treated with kids gloves. That weakens the product by allowing individuals who don't respect the genre to dictate what should or should not happen to these characters.

If you've been a long time reader, there's no way you really believe that. For more than 30+ years Marvel has been adding more diverse characters to there titles. And some of those characters have been heroes that solved things with their fists. And I can't see how you can suggest with a straight face that minorities are being treated with "kid gloves" in any instance or how that's been hampering the genre in anyway.

[Marvel_Is]

If you've been a long time reader, there's no way you really believe that. For more than 30+ years Marvel has been adding more diverse characters to there titles. And some of those characters have been heroes that solved things with their fists. And I can't see how you can suggest with a straight face that minorities are being treated with "kid gloves" in any instance or how that's been hampering the genre in anyway.

I stated that minority readers want minority characters to be treated with kid gloves. Minority characters should be able to get the axe just like any character in this genre, but the minority fanbase dislikes that to the point where it disrupts long-time readers' enjoyment - unless, they themselves happen to be actively involved in the diversity campaign.

[Marvel_Is]

The sad thing is that this nostalgia does not only apply to comics. I can name dozens of other long-running media franchises or incarnations that fall victim to the same thing or else have its share of nostalgic nuts who have a gut-reaction to hating everything new like a bunch of old geezers.

I can't personally chime into this diversity thing because I don't feel I'm knowledgeable enough on the subject and I don't want to sound like jackass. But I do want to mention about how I encountered one guy on another forum who argued that "The companies don't have do all this diversity stuff as long as the stories based around the established characters are continuously well-written."

Agree or disagree?

Absolutely agree with him. I've been saying this for the longest. Publishers like Marvel only do the increased diversity thing because there are people who will spend their money on products featuring that alone. As a whole, they don't care about minority issues - it's not their job. Most of their success comes from characters who just happen to be White!

Minority properties just don't have the same supporters. Enthusiasm is nice, but it don't pay those bills.

[Marvell2100]

I stated that minority readers want minority characters to be treated with kid gloves. Minority characters should be able to get the axe just like any character in this genre, but the minority fanbase dislikes that to the point where it disrupts long-time readers' enjoyment - unless, they themselves happen to be actively involved in the diversity campaign.

When it's a case of minority characters being killed or having their titles cancelled and not being brought back or given another chance at a series, of course minorities aren't going to be happy. It's usually because they see non-white characters get killed and brought back to life or being given their fourth or fifth attempt at a series.

And when the minority pool is so small to begin with it doesn't help matters. If there were as many minorities with solos and on teams as non-minority characters then diversity wouldn't be the issue. Fans would just be upset about their favorite character being offed or having a series cancelled.

[Marvel_Is]

When it's a case of minority characters being killed or having their titles cancelled and not being brought back or given another chance at a series, of course minorities aren't going to be happy. It's usually because they see non-white characters get killed and brought back to life or being given their fourth or fifth attempt at a series.

And when the minority pool is so small to begin with it doesn't help matters. If there were as many minorities with solos and on teams as non-minority characters then diversity wouldn't be the issue. Fans would just be upset about their favorite character being offed or having a series cancelled.

Sounds like entitlement to me. Marvel is just one of hundreds of publishers and people don't generally read their comics for sexual and ethnic diversity. And why would they since it's home to some of the world's leading fictional icons.

Hitching ones wagon to characters who are minorities seems like such a low standard to reach for. I've never understood why folks pickup Marvel's comics for that alone when they could be supporting other publishers the indies or DC where they're about to racebend a major character.

Marvel's stories are ongoing and there's always a chance of minority characters getting a shot, but they need supporters. Minority readers just aren't doing a good enough job of that because their issues with the comics seem to be almost arbitrary.

[Marvell2100]

Sounds like entitlement to me. Marvel is just one of hundreds of publishers and people don't generally read their comics for sexual and ethnic diversity. And why would they since it's home to some of the world's leading fictional icons.

Hitching ones wagon to characters who are minorities seems like such a low standard to reach for. I've never understood why folks pickup Marvel's comics for that alone when they could be supporting other publishers the indies or DC where they're about to racebend a major character.

Marvel's stories are ongoing and there's always a chance of minority characters getting a shot, but they need supporters. Minority readers just aren't doing a good enough job of that because their issues with the comics seem to be almost arbitrary.

And how do you know why people read comics? It's like your telling Marvel what to publish. And it doesn't seem that Marvel shares your view on minority characters seeing as how they becoming more diverse.

[Marvel_Is]

And how do you know why people read comics? It's like your telling Marvel what to publish. And it doesn't seem that Marvel shares your view on minority characters seeing as how they becoming more diverse.

Marvel is becoming more diverse because it sates individuals clamoring for such a thing. You think they do it because they just love minorities?

[Mr MajestiK]

Sounds like entitlement to me. Marvel is just one of hundreds of publishers and people don't generally read their comics for sexual and ethnic diversity. And why would they since it's home to some of the world's leading fictional icons.

Hitching ones wagon to characters who are minorities seems like such a low standard to reach for. I've never understood why folks pickup Marvel's comics for that alone when they could be supporting other publishers the indies or DC where they're about to racebend a major character.

Marvel's stories are ongoing and there's always a chance of minority characters getting a shot, but they need supporters. Minority readers just aren't doing a good enough job of that because their issues with the comics seem to be almost arbitrary.

I fail to see where you're getting this "entitlement" vibe from especially as the points that Marvell2100 brought up in his post are varifiably based on what's beeen published in the 616 MU to date.

The Marvel Universe has comprised of a wide range of characters of all backgrounds for as long as I can remember but for some unfathomable reason, Marvel have done a piss poor job of utilizing all of their properties across the board especially in relation to the allocation of solid creative teams and strong story arcs that open up all of the MU to as diverse a readership as possible without sacrificing overall quality and IP integrity.

To me there's no such thing as majority/minority characters.

Merely publishers unwilling to tell tales featuring strong characters regardless of ethinicity, gender or orientation.